Pakistan considers Chinese attack helicopters on back of stalled AH-1Z, T129 deal

[Psychic]

Our people even invented a term to try to appease Indians and BDis in the West, we took a term Desi which means Pakistani-made goods or produce , and turned into an umbrella term to lump us together with people who share nothing with us.

Its sad to see that dishes like korma, kebab, karahi and pulao etc which are meat dishes which majority Indians don't eat are labeled as "Indian food". And Pakistanis naming their resturants as Indian.

 

[Xeson]

And I thought I am going to read something related to the thread title.
Fellows, we all know and believe what we do.
Lets agree to disagree and move ahead please.
If its not Helis, Z10ME, Atak t129, AH1Z do yourself and all others the favor and put a lid on it.
Lets act like gentleman and stay on topic!

 

[Basel]

It's not about helicopter vs helicopter scenario. It's about acquiring a certain capability and maintaining a balance at tactical as well as strategic level. If Apache with its Longbow/Hellfire combo has the standoff strike capability against Pakistan's SHORADS then it's more likely to give more options to Indian forces in comparison with that of Pakistan. As a response two different paths are followed simultaneously,

1: acquisition of similar capabilities to put Indian ground forces in similar disadvantage.
2: development of countermeasures by acquiring longer range air defense systems.

Thus the need of (1) capable gunship and (2) better airdefense.

FM-90 have max range of 15km while Hellfire is 12km max so it will be equal duel between them.

Also if Pantsir is inducted then 20km could be range of SR SAMs which will put Indian Apaches in pressure.

I think PA should test Ka-52 latest version, it's beast in its self.

 

[Imad.Khan]

FM-90 have max range of 15km while Hellfire is 12km max so it will be equal duel between them.

Also if Pantsir is inducted then 20km could be range of SR SAMs which will put Indian Apaches in pressure.

I think PA should test Ka-52 latest version, it's beast in its self.

Mate, i have been in love with that heli for ages. It truely is a sexy beast.

 

[Hassan Guy]

The fact that the US blocked the sale of our choppers yet our political and military leadership still is engaging with these guys (PM in the US meeting Trump, COAS talking with CENTCOM commanders, Afghan peace deal).

This renders us nothing but Gandu's of the highest order.

 

[python-000]

Pakistan considers Chinese attack helicopters on back of stalled AH-1Z, T129 deals
By Dominic Perry
26 February 2020

Pakistan looks set to turn to China for its attack helicopter replacement needs after US embargoes halted sales of rival Bell and Turkish Aerospace products.

Islamabad had in 2015 ordered 12 Bell AH-1Zs under the USA’s Foreign Military Sales process and then followed that in 2018 with a deal for 30 Turkish Aerospace T129s worth $1.5 billion.

Source: Shimin Gu/Wikimedia Commons

But the AH-1Z sale has been on hold since US President Donald Trump cut security funding to Pakistan, and export sanctions related to the US-built LHTEC T800 engines which power the T129 has led to the suspension of that contract.

This impasse, and a pressing need to retire its fleet of 48 Bell AH-1Fs, is now pushing Islamabad to consider alternatives, Major General Syed Najeeb Ahmed, commander, army aviation, told Defence IQ’s International Military Helicopter conference in London on 26 February.

“We are looking at other options. One of them is in China in the shape of the new attack helicopter they have created called the Z-10ME,” he says. “In case the first two options do not materialise this third option will be considered.”

Pakistan had previously evaluated an earlier version of the CAIC Z-10, but Ahmed says the latest iteration has improved weapons and systems.

Source: Turkish Aerospace

Ahmed is extremely doubtful that the AH-1Z deal can be resurrected, and although Turkish Aerospace is developing an indigenous replacement engine for the T129, he is not confident that this will be ready in time.

In fact, Pakistan has set a deadline of July this year for a final decision, Ahmed says.

The relative urgency is driven by India’s capability increases, as New Delhi grows its fleet of Boeing AH-64E Apaches.

“The Cobras are no match for the Apaches that the Indians are getting,” he says. “We definitely want to match that [capability].”

https://www.flightglobal.com/helico...ck-of-stalled-ah-1z-t129-deals/136944.article

GOOD decision if it is true even we can give Turkey more time for T-129 engines...

 

[Thunder.Storm]

Unfortunately, Pak Army generally isn't interested in South Africa, and Denel seems to be undergoing its own issues that might stop it from pursuing the Rooivalk 2 any further. Basically, if there's scope for a JV on a heavy attack helicopter, then it's either Turkey (ATAK-2) or China (rumoured next-gen heavy attack helicopter).

You means

"Zhu Wu Yuan technology straight -12

Captain 13.48 m
Height 3.12 m
Rotor diameter of 10.39 m
Empty Weight 3300 kg
Take-off weight of 7700 kg
Flight performance (2000 kg, sea level, standard atmosphere)
Maximum speed of 295 km / h
Cruising speed 315 km / h
Maximum tilt climb rate of 8.5 m / s
Range of 640 km
Life time of 3 hours 45 minutes
No static ground effect ceiling 3400 m
To effect a static ceiling 4100 m
Weapons: 20mm cannon (500 rounds of depleted uranium armor shells)
Built-in weapon storage: up to 9K carrying 12 anti-tank missiles flag
Power: two AVIC 11 with the AVS-1-1 turbo-shaft engine (single 1180 hp)

According to insiders; Chinese WZ-12 prototype factory in Jiangxi Changhe Aircraft has been around, doing a lot of performance testing, but the data being kept secret.

WZ-12 Comanche and the United States is very close to the performance, but has some innovation with Chinese characteristics.

 

[Viking 63]

At times the stupidity of Pakistan armed forces do not surprise me, from the drama of F-16 saga to AH-Z Helo it seems they are always betting on the wrong horse! Always hoping against hope, it was a wrong decision to start with choosing Turkish Helo with American equipment!!! Just like PAF who learned their lesson after 3 decades of humiliations now our glorious Army is on same trajectory.

 

[Khan vilatey]

Dude western equipment is more reliable. Chinese equipment is catching up but still is not there. American military equipment is reliable and lethal, case and point the su-30 killer f-16.

if we can get American equipment it will be lethal and give our army the training and process to be far more lethal. Just Like the exposure to f-16 made us think of a higher standard for jf-17.

Kv

 

[KaiserX]

Dude western equipment is more reliable. Chinese equipment is catching up but still is not there. American military equipment is reliable and lethal, case and point the su-30 killer f-16.

if we can get American equipment it will be lethal and give our army the training and process to be far more lethal. Just Like the exposure to f-16 made us think of a higher standard for jf-17.

Kv

It boggles my mind where so called "experts" get their information from. Very strong statement you made there. The vast majority of your advanced electronics ie 80%+ you should check where its made now. Even US weapon subsystems are made in China. We have fallen far behind due to people like yours mindset.. Everything but chinese where we have gold right infront of our eyes but only realize when we are in predicaments like this... Now that Super cobras and turkish helis are not available we are jumping on the chinese bandwagon. If we had pursued the joint venture route a decade ago to manufacture WZ-10s then imagine by now how many we would have had to maintain our attack heli advantage via india who has already caught up...

You only believe western systems are more reliable because Chinese systems have not been used against much much weaker opponents on a mass scale ie iraq afghanistan libya etc...Sometimes I think people need brain surgery...

 

[python-000]

It boggles my mind where so called "experts" get their information from. Very strong statement you made there. The vast majority of your advanced electronics ie 80%+ you should check where its made now. Even US weapon subsystems are made in China. We have fallen far behind due to people like yours mindset.. Everything but chinese where we have gold right infront of our eyes but only realize when we are in predicaments like this... Now that Super cobras and turkish helis are not available we are jumping on the chinese bandwagon. If we had pursued the joint venture route a decade ago to manufacture WZ-10s then imagine by now how many we would have had to maintain our attack heli advantage via india who has already caught up...

You only believe western systems are more reliable because Chinese systems have not been used against much much weaker opponents on a mass scale ie iraq afghanistan libya etc...Sometimes I think people need brain surgery...

What ever your views But Pakistan will always do that what is best for it & may be PA go for both Z10ME first from China & after that T-129 when Turkey arrange & build its new Engine even we can convert this deal with Turkey new heavy attack helicopter who is under development...

 

[KaiserX]

What ever your views But Pakistan will always do that what is best for it & may be PA go for both Z10ME first from China & after that T-129 when Turkey arrange & build its new Engine even we can convert this deal with Turkey new heavy attack helicopter who is under development...

When has pakistan ever done whats best for its interest? This whole attack heli saga started with rooivalks during the musharaf era, then z-10s, then super cobras, then T-129s now back to Z-10's. It must definately be in our best interests to wast 2 decades to simply make up our mind on a sanction proof solution right infront of us! Esp when even the older z-10s beat our obselete ah-1f cobras in all aspects we conveniently find excuses to purchase turkish attack helis due to their ability to operate at higher altitudes? since when did anyone think indian armored thrusts would come from the himalayas in kashmir? the idiot who thought that up on whatever blog should be thrown off the biggest cliff

 

[Khan vilatey]

It boggles my mind where so called "experts" get their information from. Very strong statement you made there. The vast majority of your advanced electronics ie 80%+ you should check where its made now. Even US weapon subsystems are made in China. We have fallen far behind due to people like yours mindset.. Everything but chinese where we have gold right infront of our eyes but only realize when we are in predicaments like this... Now that Super cobras and turkish helis are not available we are jumping on the chinese bandwagon. If we had pursued the joint venture route a decade ago to manufacture WZ-10s then imagine by now how many we would have had to maintain our attack heli advantage via india who has already caught up...

You only believe western systems are more reliable because Chinese systems have not been used against much much weaker opponents on a mass scale ie iraq afghanistan libya etc...Sometimes I think people need brain surgery...

Wow, wow let’s be clear here. The design and major research of all western equipment is done in western countries. China is used as a manufacturing hub.

It’s like Indians are good at software yet no major global software product
Has been developed by India.
They are used as cheap labor to code and test while we architect and design in the west.

With a lot of effort from our Chinese friends with thousands of graduates training in the west this mindset is changing, at my class at university of London there were 20 ish Pakistanis , 100 Chinese and 15 westerners. This was 15 ish years ago. so investment is being made things are progressing but they are not there yet. Case and point no 4th gen Chinese aircraft can compete 1:1 agonist let’s say the Rafale with Chinese manufactured components. It’s because French integration is far ahead. It will take time and sweat and blood to get there. China is very close but work still needs to be done.

a good example is z-10 had engine issues which is why pak army wanted a western system. Now that the Chinese have improved the engines and modularized the maintenance reducing cost of operation and increasing reliability, we are interested.

Following one or other doctrine blindly is never effective. It’s like saying java is better than .net. All are tools, one choose based on one’s needs and with resources available to one. It’s actually the final product that makes money that is important.

KV

 

[khanmubashir]

In my opinion its better to go for Z-10 in large numbers and set up local assembly for it. This would have long term benefit for local Rotatory Wing Aviation Industry.
The delay in AH-1Z and Atak have already costed us a lot of resources and time.

pak chose t129 as Turks promised local assembly and share of technology
if now z10 hope tot will follow

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

Also if Pantsir is inducted then 20km could be range of SR SAMs which will put Indian Apaches in pressure.

Russian small range air defences are exposed now. Look what happened to Panstir and BUK in Syria