Pakistan conducted another successful test fire of indigenously developed Submarine Launched Cruise

[Bratva]

All tests of Babur SLCM have been conducted from Agosta 90Bs.

Has france modified the French Combat system on Agosta B under the table to fire Babur SLCM ?

 

[KapitaanAli]

Old Fashioned?
Please Elaborate because India has yet to master that old tech,which she has even failed to master with engine being supplied from Russia.

By an old design, I mean that it's short range, and offers nothing over the usual subsonic characteristics, and that its stealth is dependent on the terrain, which is of no relevance over the sea.

In no way do I undermine cruise missile tech.

 

[Shane]

Congratulations Pakistan and our Scientists!!!

Underwater dynamic launch platform sounds like an ingenious modification. May be submarine versions of hard points or pods carrying cruise missiles.

May be Pakistan Navy is working on developing and advancing ideas tested and used decades ago by Germans and the Japs, projects subsequently taken over by US and Russia, that they still incorporate in recent platforms, continuously improving and perfecting upon the ingenious German and Japanese designs.

Note the huge size of those old era missile tubes. I'm not saying that it must be exactly like that but does gives us an idea about the options available.

Besides, Our cruise missile is much smaller and compact to make such platforms rather streamlined and efficient.

Above pic with relevant excerpt taken from an interesting read.

 

[IceCold]

Bhia why do you want 3000 KM range missile ....??? Indian is not situated at some other continent its next to us ....

Do you even know ~47% of Indian population lives in the coastal states of India and a BIG chunk of Indian economy is based there, even if we take population of only coastal districts of India then ~18% of Indian population is residing in those districts.

Try to understand basically we have a weapon with which we can threat around +25% Indian population (population of coastal districts and districts adjacent to coastal districts) and a very big chunk of Indian economy and defence infrastructure.

plz have a look at this
View attachment 462523

keep in mind

• I have drawn all the circles for 100 KM radius only which mean sub could remain at 300-350 KM distance form Indian coast and can still pose threat of a great magnitude to any target situated within 100 Km at Indian coast again recall ~25% of Indian population reside there and a big chunk of Economic and Defence related infrastructure of Indian in those region

• I have not circled any potential area of interest for us at eastern coast of India but as a matter of fact even that region is approachable for our subs

• And If you are thinking about Anti submarine capabilities of India which could obviously pose counter threat than plz note it will not be a very easy task for Indian Navy to locate 1 (or maximum 2 deployed) Pakistani subs in an area of +700,000 Km of deep Ocean stretch from Kerala to Gujarat

so in short current 450 KM range of BABUR SLCM is enough to post credible minimum deterrence by PN

Thanks for the detailed post with maps. I however have two question
1) In any war scenario, India will likely not keep its war assets this close to coastal areas knowing well Pakistan can target them even if we use conventional warheads and not nuclear. Yes not all assets can be moved but India will try to move as many as it can so as to minimize loss of any attack by Pakistan. Where does that leave us?
2) What about Mumbai which is considered as their financial capital and also their hub for international investment? if India knows Pakistan can take out Mumbai even if our land assets are taken out, a war can be won even before it began.

 

[Sine Nomine]

By an old design, I mean that it's short range, and offers nothing over the usual subsonic characteristics, and that its stealth is dependent on the terrain, which is of no relevance over the sea.

In no way do I undermine cruise missile tech.

What Range has to do with stealth?
If it has no relevance over the sea why US and allies have deployed tons of BGM-109?
Man your logic is flawed,other then being short range,which is not good for platform it has no flaw.

 

[war&peace]

And so called “SLCM” L mera.. you turd, Yakhont already had different launch versions.. what did you do? Beg Russians for “assembling”.

They begged Russia to paint an Indian flag on it so that they can parade it on their national day..Russia dumped its obsolete crap on them which none of their A/C could carry so those needed to be modified again by Russia...

 

[KapitaanAli]

What Range has to do with stealth?
If it has no relevance over the sea why US and allies have deployed tons of BGM-109?
Man your logic is flawed,other then being short range,which is not good for platform it has no flaw.

Stealth has nothing to do with range and neither did I imply so.
I never said subsonic cruise missiles have no relevance over the sea either. But the stealth of a cruise missile has no relevance over the sea against a good enough navy, especially if its intake is hanging out like a beard.

US has great use with large number of long range subsonic missiles against their typical enemies.

 

[BetterPakistan]

It means Pakistan navy has second strike capability (PROVED)

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

I must say a very cheap one...nobody wants IT even for free...

The first thing everyone should understand is -- Radar Horizon.

Horizon calculator - radar and visual

Basically...The higher the radar antenna, the further the distance it can see, but the principle is also applicable to the target, meaning the higher the target is off the ground, the more visible it will be for the seeking radar. This is why we have low altitude attacks by manned aircrafts, to get as below the defender's radar horizon as possible. The terrain following (TF) radar system for the F-111 is one example. The TF equipped autonomous cruise missile that can be launched by several means is another example of radar horizon avoidance.

The moment both attacker and defender see each other, visually or electronically, is unofficially called 'horizon break' and begins the coundown for the threat response time. The goal for the attacker is to compress that response time to as short as possible. The defender's radar mast could be at ten meters off the ground or in an AWACS who would have the furthest radar horizon. The horizon break relationship also involve the attacker's altitude. If the defender's radar is an AWACS, then it really does not matter the attacker's altitude. The radar horizon here is several hundreds km. The attacker would have to rely on hiding in the ground clutter, but that is another radar issue. Suffice to say that an AWACS offer the defender the greatest amount of response time. If the defender does not have an AWACS, then it falls upon radar antenna mast height and target altitude.

So in the radar horizon calculator link above...If we insert 10 meters for both radar mast height and attacker's altitude we have the visual horizon of 22 km and radar horizon of 26 km. If we change the attacker's altitude (h1), which would be the aircraft depicted, to 5 meters, then we have a visual horizon of barely 20 km and a radar horizon of 22 km. If we change the defender's radar mast (h2) to ten thousand meters, which would make it an AWACS, then we have a visual horizon of 365 km and a radar horizon of 421 km. Notice no change to the attacker's altitude of 5 meters. Now if we insert the closing speed of which the defender and attacker approaches each other, and it does not matter if the defender is stationary, moving like a ship or like an aircraft, the response time changes. But if the attacker is moving at 600 km/h and the defender is moving away at 601 km/h, then we really do not have closing speed issue and therefore no threat, the defender is escaping at a very slow 1 km/h advantage. This is why the Exocet type missile is so deadly to ships that are not covered by airborne radars regardless of the attacker's speed. If the radar horizon is only 22 km, 600 or 800 km/h attack speed really does not make much difference except for kinetic energy at impact.

The Brahmos' supersonic speed does not offer much tactical advantage IF the defender is covered by airborne radar. In less than five seconds the defender can deploy a distraction/seduction chaff/flare defense that will effectively cover several thousands square km in radar and infrared area view for the missile's sensors. The missile can maneuver around the target area and try to reacquire the target but this would increase the response time for the defenders who can track the Brahmos with their own radars and bring it down with active defense such as guns or missiles. Chaff/flares are considered passive measures. It does not matter from a radar horizon perspective if the Brahmos is air delivered or not. The launch aircraft is still considered an attacker, its flight altitude is still subject to the radar horizon equation and naturally the horizon break versus response time relationship. If the AWACS can detect the launch aircraft at several hundreds km out, that begins the response time countdown for the defenders.

Compressed response time is a double edged sword. At supersonic closing speed, if there are any changes in the defender's position from the moment of horizon break the Brahmos may not be able to compensate. But against ships that are slow moving compared to an aircraft, and the Brahmos is an aircraft, then unless the targeted fleet is covered by airborne radar, the Brahmos is a very good weapon. Still...What the Brahmos must do on horizon break is to take a radar snapshot of the area, as much as its radar is able to scan, select the largest radar return, lock the entire image in memory, and home in on that largest radar return. Does the Brahmos have a mechanically swept radar? If yes, then there must be a delicate balance between its supersonic speed and its radar mechanical scan rate. The Brahmos may miss an aircraft carrier and home in on a supply ship because its supersonic speed effectively outran its own radar scan rate.

Or how about this scenario...The Brahmos broke horizon on a fleet and an aircraft carrier, the largest radar return in the snapshot, is right at the edge of its radar sweep and the furthest detected distance by the missile's radar. IF the system is programmed to home in on the largest radar return the missile must make a correction. Depending on the distance between the aircraft carrier and the missile at the point of that course correction, and remember that the aircraft carrier is at the very edge of the missile's radar sweep limits, there may be sufficient time for the aircraft carrier to deploy passive electronic distraction/seduction defense, make drastic maneuvers and align its active defense towards the direction of the threat. Supersonic speed is not a negative but it does demand the system designers to compromise in other areas, such as decision making process for the missile. Limited fuel and aerodynamic stresses at supersonic maneuvers are other factors to consider in this decision making process. The designers may decide to forgo the largest radar return criteria and program the missile to limit its targets within a radar view that is less than its scan limits and distance less than its maximum radar range.

This is to point out that weapons design and testing are not as simple as media releases often portrayed. Subsonic attacks are still potent when balanced with sophisticated avionics such as small AESA radars and highly responsive flight control systems. Against operationally sophisticated defenders who can deploy airborne radar coverage 24/7, the Brahmos would be treated no differently than subsonic missiles. Radar horizon equals to awareness and that will drastically change every scenario.

 

[Rashid Mahmood]

Has france modified the French Combat system on Agosta B under the table to fire Babur SLCM ?

We did it ourselves as we did with the Harpoon's.

 

[Sine Nomine]

Stealth has nothing to do with range and neither did I imply so.
I never said subsonic cruise missiles have no relevance over the sea either. But the stealth of a cruise missile has no relevance over the sea against a good enough navy, especially if its intake is hanging out like a beard.

US has great use with large number of long range subsonic missiles against their typical enemies.

For God sake man,it's intake isn't large enough to provide an advantage.
It all depends upon how a Good Enough Navy would detect it.

 

[Cookie Monster]

We did it ourselves as we did with the Harpoon's.

Is this ur opinion? Or is it based on some credible info?

Also wouldn't that violate some agreements...to just modify things without authorization?

 

[KapitaanAli]

For God sake man,it's intake isn't large enough to provide an advantage.
It all depends upon how a Good Enough Navy would detect it.

I was afraid you'd say this.
Intake isn't the point man. It's just an additional point, hence especially.
(A submerged intake gives extra advantage.)

The issue is the dependence on terrain.

 

[Bratva]

We did it ourselves as we did with the Harpoon's.

As turkish put provisions in their contract that Their CMS cant be tampered with and only they'd make any changes in it. If France is still providing maintenance and AIP modules to Pakistan, Doesn't it tell France has made sure Pakistan has not tampered with any proprietary systems ?

Harpoons ? American made sure that none was tampered when they inspected the entire inventory.

 

[war&peace]

Is this ur opinion? Or is it based on some credible info?

Also wouldn't that violate some agreements...to just modify things without authorization?

Pakistan got these subs with ToT so there is no issue as to modify, repair or make copies of this sub or use the technology in our indigenous development. Just one thing I'm not sure is if we can market and export our made Agosta 90Bs but that's irrelevant since Pakistan is not doing that.
Also remember that these sub are being upgraded by STM of Turkey and not by France...so no need to be cynical.