Pakistan - Bangladesh reunion

[equiliz3r]

I'm a Pakistani Punjabi and I must say that I feel more closer to a non-punjabi Pakistani than an Indian Punjabi, heck I even feel more closer to a Bangladeshi Muslim than an Indian Punjabi. I lived in U.K, Canada, U.S., and I've met Indian Punjabis and all of you are Sikhs and Hindus, I never met a Muslim Indian Punjabi, some of you say there are some Muslims in India Punjab but I never met one maybe there are less than 0.001% Muslim population in India's Punjab.

And the Sikhs are really proud of being Sikh, they see themselves as Sikh first, they have their own culture (kara, sword, not cutting hair, their weddings are different, they dont get buried when they die), everything we Pakistani Punjabis do from birth to death is different from Indian Punjabis, its just the language thats the same but the script is different so I cant read what an Indian Punjabi writes and he/she cant read what we Pakistani Punjabi write because we Pakistani Punjabis use a different script than what is used in Indian Punjab.

By the way, Punjabis are only 3% of India's population. What about the 97% of India's population we have no ethnic similarities too?

But I have to say, South Indians are much more peaceful than North Indians...too bad South Indians are so far away from Pakistan. North Indians are mostly Brahmin elite and Sikhs, both groups of people who hated Muslims for centuries.

Sorry mate ur post is offtopic.

population of Muslims in Indian punjab is around 1.5% .

Indian punjab follows Gurmukhi punjabi ( created by gurus) and Pakistan punjab follows shahmukhi punjabi.

 

[Omar1984]

Well I'd never compare my feelings for my fellow Indian nationals with those for Pakistani Punjabis. Country always comes first. And I'd say that the differences that you see now are more because of the last 60 years of wars and intrigue.

Regarding Muslims in east Punjab, yes there are very few of them but they are as well inter-mingled with other communities as any other. Check out the following entry about Malerkotla in Wiki-
Malerkotla - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


And I don't agree that Sikhs have hated Muslims for centuries. Maharaja Ranjit Singh's forces had Muslim contingents. The battles that Sikhs fought were against tyrannical Mughals who just happened to be Muslims. Nothing against the religion. In fact Guru Gobind Singh fought against the Hindu Rajas of Himachal as well. So it would be wrong to classify these battles as Sikhs hatred towards Muslims.

I guess after '47 our lenses have really been skewed. Most Punjabis irrespective of their faith view the other community from the perspective of what happened in '47 and later.

I know of so many surnames that are common on both sides- Cheemas, Waraich, Sidhu the list goes one. Its our common ancestry, culture and language that for me is the biggest hope for peace in the region.

Pakistani Punjabis are Pakistanis and Muslims first, sure we have few Sikhs and Hindus in Pakistan's Punjab province but almost all of Pakistani Punjabis are Muslims. You know yourself that throughout history of Punjab, religion always played a role. Sikhs wanted to rule Punjab, Muslims wanted to rule Punjab. Mughals and other Muslim emperors brought culture, beautiful dresses, art to Punjab and we Pakistani Punjabis are thankful to Mughals and other Muslim emperors of Punjab. You Sikhs hated the Mughals but eat Mughal food, wear Mughal clothes. And Sikhs did not want partition to happen because their worst nightmares would come true, Muslims rule all Punjab, thats why partition was the bloodiest in Punjab.

As for culture and language, we Pakistani Punjabis cant even read the script you use to write Punjabi. Our literature is totally different. Our culture is totally different. Weddings are different. As I said before, everything we Pakistanis do from birth to death is different from Indian Punjabis. What similarities do we have? Bhangara?

By the way, glad to know there are Muslims left in India's part of Punjab a once Muslim majority state even before partition.

P.S. No more talk about reunification with India, why on earth would any Pakistani want to share their country with 900 million hindus.

 

[RobbieS]

Dude im balouch some balouchs live in iranoman and UAE so does that mean im iranian?arab?coz 2-3% baluchs live in these countries?
Even the balouchs living in these countries have different festivals and lifestyles.Unlike sikh punjabis who dont even share culture with pakistani punjabis,the accent the language is different then the pakistani punjabis,some cusienes are different...and the lifestyle is better.
And punjabis sir dont erase there culture most of pakistani punjabis converted in the 13th century and since then there culture is evolving.

I meant most of the people of the pre-independence India. I know about Baloch and I guess the logic holds true for Pakhtuns as well.

I don't agree with you on the accent part. Talk to a Sikh from Amritsar and a Muslim for Lahore on the phone, I bet you can't make out the difference. The accents of the two areas are very similar. For that matter any two people who live 10 kms apart of the IB in Punjab will have the exact same accent.

Heer,ranjha were from upper punjab and were muslim shared no culture with sikhs or hindus.

Again, irrespective of which geographical part of Punjab they belonged to, they were Punjabis nevertheless. And that makes them a part of shared culture of Punjabi Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs.

Pakistani punjabis claim only whats there have u ever sen a pakistani punjabi talking about sikh heroes? or have u seen them celebrating ranjeet singh?

May be you need to ask your intellectuals that question. Perhaps your religion contains something that makes you hate the people of your own culture but fawn over the Afghan and Turk barbarians who invaded Punjab.

If sikhs want merger they can sure merge with Pakistani punjab and make a greater punjab.

Listen to yourself. Sikhs are amongst the patriotic people you would find in India. A list of PVC awardees will confirm that.

Brother there's only so much I can argue with you on this topic. You seem to be too one sided in your views. What you are advocating is the path that has led to wars and bloodshed. What I am trying to say could lead to peace but perhaps you see it as hegemonic designs of yet another Indian. May be I wasn't able to explain it you well. May be you need to visit East Punjab to see for yourself as I wish to do for West Punjab. Untill then, lets hope for the best

 

[sajan]

But I have to say, South Indians are much more peaceful than North Indians...too bad South Indians are so far away from Pakistan. North Indians are mostly Brahmin elite and Sikhs, both groups of people who hated Muslims for centuries.

Yes South Indians are peaceful. It may be because 1)we are surrounded by sea on three sides, 2) 'bearded terrorist' find it difficult to reach out in deep south to disrupt our peaceful life, 3) We feel safe and secure for being not bordering with any unfriendly neighbors. And Thank God that we are far away from any of our "friendly" neighbors.
If Muslims are welcomed in S India its only because Islam came to S India peacefully not by invasions like in N India.

 

[RobbieS]

Pakistani Punjabis are Pakistanis and Muslims first, sure we have few Sikhs and Hindus in Pakistan's Punjab province but almost all of Pakistani Punjabis are Muslims. You know yourself that throughout history of Punjab, religion always played a role. Sikhs wanted to rule Punjab, Muslims wanted to rule Punjab. Mughals and other Muslim emperors brought culture, beautiful dresses, art to Punjab and we Pakistani Punjabis are thankful to Mughals and other Muslim emperors of Punjab. You Sikhs hated the Mughals but eat Mughal food, wear Mughal clothes.

I don't what you mean by Mughal dresses. Nor am I an expert on dresses and arts. Even the Mughals were more or less Indians by the 18th century, by the time the Sikhs came to power, having been in the country for 4 centuries.

And the reason I said the Sikh religion in itself didn't have anything against Islam because many of the teaching in Granth Sahib are from Sufi saints. Baba Farid is highly revered amongst Sikhs. In fact the basic principles of Sikhism about equality to all is derived from Islam.

And Sikhs did not want partition to happen because their worst nightmares would come true, Muslims rule all Punjab, thats why partition was the bloodiest in Punjab.

I don't think the common man irrespective of whether he was a Hindu or Sikh wanted the participation. And I think you would agree that it would be wrong to blame one community for the bloodshed during '47. I have heard heart wrenching stories from Sikhs and Hindus who migrated from west Punjab. They eyes still swell up and their faces cringe when they talk about it. I am sure its the same on your side.

As for culture and language, we Pakistani Punjabis cant even read the script you use to write Punjabi. Our literature is totally different. Our culture is totally different. Weddings are different. As I said before, everything we Pakistanis do from birth to death is different from Indian Punjabis. What similarities do we have? Bhangara?

The script is different because the Gurus decided to have their own script called Gurmukhi to forge theor different identity from the Mughals. As you know, the script on your side in known as Shahmukhi- the one spoken by the Shah/King. precisely the reason why the Gurus wanted it to be different.

And weddings are different because of the difference in religion.

By the way, glad to know there are Muslims left in India's part of Punjab a once Muslim majority state even before partition.

Yes I agree with you unified Punjab was a Muslim majority state.

P.S. No more talk about reunification with India, why on earth would any Pakistani want to share their country with 900 million hindus.

To answer your question-Don't know why you see Hindus as evil. After all Muslims lived with Hindus for more than a thousand years in India before partition.

I don't want a re-unification either. Just that the talks of how Pakistanis are dissimilar to the Indians sometimes irk me. But I guess we can all have our opinions. 'nuff said.

 

[equiliz3r]

Pakistani Punjabis are Pakistanis and Muslims first, sure we have few Sikhs and Hindus in Pakistan's Punjab province but almost all of Pakistani Punjabis are Muslims. You know yourself that throughout history of Punjab, religion always played a role. Sikhs wanted to rule Punjab, Muslims wanted to rule Punjab. Mughals and other Muslim emperors brought culture, beautiful dresses, art to Punjab and we Pakistani Punjabis are thankful to Mughals and other Muslim emperors of Punjab. You Sikhs hated the Mughals but eat Mughal food, wear Mughal clothes. And Sikhs did not want partition to happen because their worst nightmares would come true, Muslims rule all Punjab, thats why partition was the bloodiest in Punjab.

As for culture and language, we Pakistani Punjabis cant even read the script you use to write Punjabi. Our literature is totally different. Our culture is totally different. Weddings are different. As I said before, everything we Pakistanis do from birth to death is different from Indian Punjabis. What similarities do we have? Bhangara?

By the way, glad to know there are Muslims left in India's part of Punjab a once Muslim majority state even before partition.

P.S. No more talk about reunification with India, why on earth would any Pakistani want to share their country with 900 million hindus.

aahhh hatred against sikhs !!!!!!!!

 

[Omar1984]

After all Muslims lived with Hindus for more than a thousand years in India before partition.
I don't want a re-unification either. Just that the talks of how Pakistanis are dissimilar to the Indians sometimes irk me. But I guess we can all have our opinions. 'nuff said.

Muslims also ruled India for about thousand years. So let the Muslim rule India again and we can then undo partition.


Pakistanis and Indians are totally different people.

India = 13.4 % Muslim population, Pakistan = 97% Muslim population
India = 80% Hindu population, Pakistan = 1.85% Hindu population


Not just religion.

India = 3% Punjabi population , Pakistan = 50% Punjabi population
And all the rest major ethnic groups of Pakistan (Pakhtoons, Sindhis, Baloch, Saraikis, etc.) combined make just less than 1% of India's population.

More than 96% of India's population share no ethnic similarities with Pakistanis at all.

So why would we Pakistanis (who are just 175 million) want to annex our country to a country with more than 1 billion people, more than 900 million who are hindus who are nothing like the vast majority of Pakistanis.

By the way, if you think Hindus and Muslims are the same. Go to a Hindu funeral then go to a Muslim funeral, even when we are dead we are different Hindus/Sikhs become ashes, we Muslims go to our grave, and in our grave, only thing that matters is that we are Muslims.

 

[third eye]

Interesting...thread about Bangladesh and not a single Bangladeshi post?
Ok I am going to put one now.



As already posted by some Pakistani members,my answer is also same.Its just not possible.
There are still many bitter feelings about 1971,and this isn't going to go away so easily.
Even if the feelings wash away,what is the chance that everything will change?
No politician would like to hand over their power.So we will be moving in circles.

But the biggest fact of all,We Bangladeshis are satisfied at the condition we are in.We may be poor,but we are improving by Allah's grace.We do not want to be part of another country.We are happy with our country.And that's what matters the most.

We welcome friendly relation,like it has been for last couple of decades.But a Huge NO to the word "reunion".

A member stated we will be going under water within years,But you don't need to worry because we will not be putting our burden on you.Because we do not have any intention of joining with Pakistan.
And as for drowning,if Allah wants,he can submerge Himalaya within matter of days.
As the Bengali saying goes,
"Rakhe Allah,maare ke"



Pakistan has enough troubles of its own,and Bangladesh also has enough trouble of its own.When you add these troubles,you don't find good result.You find chaos.

So it is better we continue in separate ways and maintain a friendly relation.

But NO to reunion.This only sounds good on paper,reality is very far from it.

Was waiting to see how ppl from BD would react to this ' suggestion'. This post pretty much sums it up.

It is interesting to note that autonomy is being offered to a nation that has been independent for 39 yrs.

 

[equiliz3r]

Muslims also ruled India for about thousand years. So let the Muslim rule India again and we can then undo partition.


Pakistanis and Indians are totally different people.

India = 13.4 % Muslim population, Pakistan = 97% Muslim population
India = 80% Hindu population, Pakistan = 1.85% Hindu population


Not just religion.

India = 3% Punjabi population , Pakistan = 50% Punjabi population
And all the rest major ethnic groups of Pakistan (Pakhtoons, Sindhis, Baloch, Saraikis, etc.) combined make just less than 1% of India's population.

More than 96% of India's population share no ethnic similarities with Pakistanis at all.

So why would we Pakistanis (who are just 175 million) want to annex our country to a country with more than 1 billion people, more than 900 million who are hindus who are nothing like the vast majority of Pakistanis.

By the way, if you think Hindus and Muslims are the same. Go to a Hindu funeral then go to a Muslim funeral, even when we are dead we are different Hindus/Sikhs become ashes, we Muslims go to our grave, and in our grave, only thing that matters is that we are Muslims.

mate its looks like you want to talk offtopic everytime.

Muslims ruled India for 1000 years and you want another chance..................as per my knowlegde In democracy everyone rules................(we had Muslim Presidents in past)

Secondly Sikhs were only people of punjab who were able to rule their own land otherwise outsiders ruled punjab...................so didnt Sikhs be given another chance

India got many cultures and over 160 languages................6 ethinic groups..........

For ur kind info..................Sikhs can also bury their dead ones ...........there is no restriction that you have to be in ashes after death.

(Mods I am sorry to go offtopic............answer was to be given)

 

[RobbieS]

Muslims also ruled India for about thousand years. So let the Muslim rule India again and we can then undo partition.

I find your tone aggressive and confrontational brother. So I m not going to reply to that.

Pakistanis and Indians are totally different people.

India = 13.4 % Muslim population, Pakistan = 97% Muslim population
India = 80% Hindu population, Pakistan = 1.85% Hindu population


Not just religion.

India = 3% Punjabi population , Pakistan = 50% Punjabi population
And all the rest major ethnic groups of Pakistan (Pakhtoons, Sindhis, Baloch, Saraikis, etc.) combined make just less than 1% of India's population.

More than 96% of India's population share no ethnic similarities with Pakistanis at all.

Go to Chennai and 100% of the people there have no ethnic similarity with people in Amritsar, yet they are Indian.

Go to Lucknow/Hyderabad/Muzaffarnagar, 70% of the people there have no religious similarity with the people in Mathura. yet they are all Indian.

Go to Kohima, Nagaland, 95% of the people there have no religious similarity with the people in Delhi. yet they are Indian.

So why would we Pakistanis (who are just 175 million) want to annex our country to a country with more than 1 billion people, more than 900 million who are hindus who are nothing like the vast majority of Pakistanis.

I never insinuated that Pakistan and India should re-unite. If at all I argued that most of the people in both the countries shared a common culture. But after 60 years of war and intrigue I don't think we should re-unite. As I said in one of my earlier posts too much water under the bridge.

By the way, if you think Hindus and Muslims are the same. Go to a Hindu funeral then go to a Muslim funeral, even when we are dead we are different Hindus/Sikhs become ashes, we Muslims go to our grave, and in our grave, only thing that matters is that we are Muslims.

Bro, there's more to culture than how you are cremated. I have been to both Muslim and Sikh cremations. By your logic Muslims, Jews and Christians would have more in common then.

A shared culture is about shared values, ethics and morals. Shared likes and dislikes. Its fine to have different opinions. I rest my case.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

I meant most of the people of the pre-independence India. I know about Baloch and I guess the logic holds true for Pakhtuns as well.

Brother,what about seriakes,jaangalis,waseeb,hinduko,potohar?

I don't agree with you on the accent part. Talk to a Sikh from Amritsar and a Muslim for Lahore on the phone, I bet you can't make out the difference. The accents of the two areas are very similar. For that matter any two people who live 10 kms apart of the IB in Punjab will have the exact same accent

.
Brother, what about shahmukhi and gurumukhi punjabi?
Do u speak shahmukhi?About accent sir u travel just 100km to loyalpur u will find punjabi different tavel 200 km u will hear serieke and enter waseeb ur in totally different plave.

Again, irrespective of which geographical part of Punjab they belonged to, they were Punjabis nevertheless. And that makes them a part of shared culture of Punjabi Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs

.
You can share them but cant claim them.

May be you need to ask your intellectuals that question. Perhaps your religion contains something that makes you hate the people of your own culture but fawn over the Afghan and Turk barbarians who invaded Punjab.

And u sa we hate u guys?whats culture do sikhs share with muslims>?beshaki?no,lasi?Yes
Do u love Aurangzeb?he was a muslim emperor...Punjabis converted in early 13th century and rangeet singh came in 18 th so they dont celebrate rangeet singh.....About afghans they are our people like Pushtons INDO-IRANIAN people.Turks never invaded punjab.Dont lie

Listen to yourself. Sikhs are amongst the patriotic people you would find in India. A list of PVC awardees will confirm that.

What about Khalistan?golden temple and genocide and rape of punjabi sikhs?Who killed ms ghandi?Even 2 days back chadambaram said something about sikh militants raising there heads in punjab.

Brother there's only so much I can argue with you on this topic. You seem to be too one sided in your views. What you are advocating is the path that has led to wars and bloodshed.

Where did i do that?

What I am trying to say could lead to peace but perhaps you see it as hegemonic designs of yet another Indian.

Chor jigar.

May be I wasn't able to explain it you well. May be you need to visit East Punjab to see for yourself as I wish to do for West Punjab. Untill then, lets hope for the besy.

Most welcome.If ur a sikh ur more then welcome.

 

[TopCat]

It took us more than a century to stabilize this land called now Bangladesh. I dont think we have any more apetite to experiment around and again destabilize our society. For its entire history Bengal welcomed people from all across world and eventually they became Bengalis. We still bear the same thought deep inside our hearts. If anybody wants to reunite with us, just drop by and make this as your own land and be a proud Bengali.
Good luck.

 

[RobbieS]

.
Brother, what about shahmukhi and gurumukhi punjabi?
Do u speak shahmukhi?About accent sir u travel just 100km to loyalpur u will find punjabi different tavel 200 km u will hear serieke and enter waseeb ur in totally different plave.

Shahmukhi and Gurmukhi are scripts yaar. you are confusing them with accents.

And yes agreed dialects and accents change every 100 km. Even in east Punjab people of the Majha region (around Amritsar) have quite a different accent then one in my Malwa region (around Bathinda, Ferozepur). But that doesn't mean its not Punjabi. Its the same language and these are minor differences. You can understand it perfectly.

.

And u sa we hate u guys?whats culture do sikhs share with muslims>?beshaki?no,lasi?Yes
Do u love Aurangzeb?he was a muslim emperor...Punjabis converted in early 13th century and rangeet singh came in 18 th so they dont celebrate rangeet singh.....About afghans they are our people like Pushtons INDO-IRANIAN people.Turks never invaded punjab.Dont lie

Bro, I don't need to lie. The Mughals were of Turkish origin and so were many other nobles, including the Nizams of Hyderabad.

What about Khalistan?golden temple and genocide and rape of punjabi sikhs?Who killed ms ghandi?Even 2 days back chadambaram said something about sikh militants raising there heads in punjab.

Dude, you are quoting a few instances to make generalizations about an entire community. No offence, there are numerous reports on Balochis fighting for independence. I shouldn't generalize and say that all Balochis desire their independent nation, should I?

Chor jigar.

Either that or either I have been on PDF for two long to know how most Pakistani members feel about Indians.

Most welcome.If ur a sikh ur more then welcome.

Thanks. Yes I am a Sikh. If everything goes according to plans I might visit Pakistan soon.

 

[ZTayyab]

This is off topic. But still even on this off topic id like to give my insight. Nankana Sahib.... arguebaly the second or even in some instances first most important Shrines to Sikhs is located on the Pakistan side. Sikhs should be welcomed to the Punjab in Pakistan. At the end of the day as Muslims we should not deny them thier right of visiting thier shrines. There are alot of cultural differences between both Punjabs but mind you that was gonna happen after its break up. As a Pakistani i would love the oppertunity to visit many shrines in India such as Ajmer Sharif, the shrine of Nizammudin Auliya etc. which are all based in India. Religious co-operation from both sides may turn out to be a huge step towards peace

 

[RobbieS]

This is off topic. But still even on this off topic id like to give my insight. Nankana Sahib.... arguebaly the second or even in some instances first most important Shrines to Sikhs is located on the Pakistan side. Sikhs should be welcomed to the Punjab in Pakistan. At the end of the day as Muslims we should not deny them thier right of visiting thier shrines. There are alot of cultural differences between both Punjabs but mind you that was gonna happen after its break up. As a Pakistani i would love the oppertunity to visit many shrines in India such as Ajmer Sharif, the shrine of Nizammudin Auliya etc. which are all based in India. Religious co-operation from both sides may turn out to be a huge step towards peace

Bro, Sikhs are already welcomed in Pakistan by GoP. Every year a number of Sikh Jathas visit Pakistan and visit various shrines including Nankana Sahib. Though it restricts travel to a select few cities, GoP issues a special visa (I forget its name) for such visits. I know a number of people who have visited Pakistan and they all talk of positive experiences.

And you are welcome to visit India. The last time I visited Agra I met a number of Pakistani British Muslims from Leicester who were traveling all over India and were trying to cover as many shrines as possible.