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Pakistan as a superpower?

Bush, you should realize that we are a nation with high hopes and ideals of a better tomorrow.

What more evidence can you ask for after seeing a thread contemplating of making Pakistan a superpower where the news media is filled with descriptions of Pakistan's current woes...


Yeah, being hopeful is one thing. But the thought that Pakistan is matching India's current economic growth is laughable when faced with facts.
I can point out exactly that the one time Pakistan got 9.2% or 9.4% growth, around 3-4 years back the exact same as India, that webby is claiming that Pakistan surpassed India.

Apart from that Pakistan has never managed to equal India's growth, so please dont say that.
 
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Yeah, being hopeful is one thing. But the thought that Pakistan is matching India's current economic growth is laughable when faced with facts.
I can point out exactly that the one time Pakistan got 9.2% or 9.4% growth, around 3-4 years back the exact same as India, that webby is claiming that Pakistan surpassed India.

Apart from that Pakistan has never managed to equal India's growth, so please dont say that.
But it's happened!

And that too from probably a negative growth rate. If you think competition from Pakistan is a laughable notion then that's that but you obviously don't see it from Pakistan's perspective of what our situation was. We had near defaulted and were only getting worse! Today's Pakistan can survive on it's own. The only edge India has in the IT sector over Pakistan is practically just the call centers and its large English speaking population.

When India's IT industry was booming, Pakistan's IT industry hadn't even started. Now Indian telecom is just slightly cheaper than Pakistan's. Pakistani software vendors are competing neck and neck in foreign markets with the Indian ones. Indian IT firms are just cashing in on the Brand name the it has.

A decade or two from now, you may have some very different comments.
 
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But it's happened!

And that too from probably a negative growth rate. If you think competition from Pakistan is a laughable notion then that's that but you obviously don't see it from Pakistan's perspective of what our situation was. We had near defaulted and were only getting worse! Today's Pakistan can survive on it's own. The only edge India has in the IT sector over Pakistan is practically just the call centers and its large English speaking population.

When India's IT industry was booming, Pakistan's IT industry hadn't even started. Now Indian telecom is just slightly cheaper than Pakistan's. Pakistani software vendors are competing neck and neck in foreign markets with the Indian ones. Indian IT firms are just cashing in on the Brand name the it has.

A decade or two from now, you may have some very different comments.

Asim, just as much as I commend your optimism I have to say that with regard to IT industry you are making an unjust comparison. Pak's IT industry is still incubating compared to India. India's IT export are over $34 billion & of that ITes contribution is merely 15%(i.e revenue from Call centres, medical transcription, legal transcription). Major s/w companies in India deal in providing business solutions and thats where the bulk of the revenue comes from. If Pak s/w vendors were competing neck to neck with their Indian counter parts I am sure we would've seen Micrososft, Oracle, Sybase, Sun Microsystems flocking into Pakistan. But, I havn't heard of any major software company having its development centre in Pak whereas almost all of them have got atleast 1 or 2 development centres in India.

Optimism is good & I respect the feeling. But, it isn't necessary to twist or hide facts to justify that you are better than the other. Afghanistan clocked 47% growth rate in 2004, Iraq grew more than 29% in 2005 but nowhere did I read that these countries are growing faster than China. China is the fastest growing major economy followed by India. In the last quarter of fiscal year 2003-2004, Indian economy grew faster than China but no one speaks of India growing faster than China. On the contrary every one accepts that India is growing atleast 2% point behind China just as Pak is growing atleast 2% point behind India. And within this window of 2% between India & Pak there are atleast 20 economies. Even relatively mature economy like Poland is growing at over 7.5% per annum. Singapore is clocking over 8% growth rate for few years now. Russia, Vietnam all are growing at 7-8%. Where as between China & India there isn't any economy that can match the scale of these two nations. This is why the comparison of Indian economy & Pak economy is simply ludicrous. At $128 billion Pak cannot be considered as a major economy whereas at over a trillion dollar, India is. Comparison can be useful only when Pak's economy grows to the scale of India. Whether it happens or not is something I wouldn't want to comment on.
 
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Yeah, being hopeful is one thing. But the thought that Pakistan is matching India's current economic growth is laughable when faced with facts.
I can point out exactly that the one time Pakistan got 9.2% or 9.4% growth, around 3-4 years back the exact same as India, that webby is claiming that Pakistan surpassed India.

Apart from that Pakistan has never managed to equal India's growth, so please dont say that.

Well, you can deny it all you want. But Pakistan did surpass Indian's growth in 2004. In 2005 it had high growth only 1% of so behind India and that with the quake. Pakistan and India have approximately the same growths for the last 5 years. Those are the facts. You can deny it all you want, it does not make them true.
 
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Asim, just as much as I commend your optimism I have to say that with regard to IT industry you are making an unjust comparison. Pak's IT industry is still incubating compared to India. India's IT export are over $34 billion & of that ITes contribution is merely 15%(i.e revenue from Call centres, medical transcription, legal transcription). Major s/w companies in India deal in providing business solutions and thats where the bulk of the revenue comes from. If Pak s/w vendors were competing neck to neck with their Indian counter parts I am sure we would've seen Micrososft, Oracle, Sybase, Sun Microsystems flocking into Pakistan. But, I havn't heard of any major software company having its development centre in Pak whereas almost all of them have got atleast 1 or 2 development centres in India.

Optimism is good & I respect the feeling. But, it isn't necessary to twist or hide facts to justify that you are better than the other. Afghanistan clocked 47% growth rate in 2004, Iraq grew more than 29% in 2005 but nowhere did I read that these countries are growing faster than China. China is the fastest growing major economy followed by India. In the last quarter of fiscal year 2003-2004, Indian economy grew faster than China but no one speaks of India growing faster than China. On the contrary every one accepts that India is growing atleast 2% point behind China just as Pak is growing atleast 2% point behind India. And within this window of 2% between India & Pak there are atleast 20 economies. Even relatively mature economy like Poland is growing at over 7.5% per annum. Singapore is clocking over 8% growth rate for few years now. Russia, Vietnam all are growing at 7-8%. Where as between China & India there isn't any economy that can match the scale of these two nations. This is why the comparison of Indian economy & Pak economy is simply ludicrous. At $128 billion Pak cannot be considered as a major economy whereas at over a trillion dollar, India is. Comparison can be useful only when Pak's economy grows to the scale of India. Whether it happens or not is something I wouldn't want to comment on.

1) Pakistan's IT industry is growing faster than India's IT industry.
2) The comparison is not between total GDP between countries (silly to compare)

The points are these. Pakistan's growth matches that of India. So, economically Pakistan is heading in the right direction. It will have some economic influence in the region, but its main influence will be geostrategic. It's possible that economically Pakistan could influence the region more than India, depending on whether it can be more innovative than India. Currently India is just an outsourcing place. Without showing it is a world leader, it will remain an outsourcing destination somewhere way behind the West. Pakistan will need to be more smarter. I would say if it can be, it will overtake India's economy in total product production.I don't see why Pakistan cannot be either since its proven to be a historical centre of learning and inventions. About time another Gandhara appears in Pakistan.
 
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Asim, just as much as I commend your optimism I have to say that with regard to IT industry you are making an unjust comparison. Pak's IT industry is still incubating compared to India. India's IT export are over $34 billion & of that ITes contribution is merely 15%(i.e revenue from Call centres, medical transcription, legal transcription). Major s/w companies in India deal in providing business solutions and thats where the bulk of the revenue comes from. If Pak s/w vendors were competing neck to neck with their Indian counter parts I am sure we would've seen Micrososft, Oracle, Sybase, Sun Microsystems flocking into Pakistan. But, I havn't heard of any major software company having its development centre in Pak whereas almost all of them have got atleast 1 or 2 development centres in India.

Optimism is good & I respect the feeling. But, it isn't necessary to twist or hide facts to justify that you are better than the other. Afghanistan clocked 47% growth rate in 2004, Iraq grew more than 29% in 2005 but nowhere did I read that these countries are growing faster than China. China is the fastest growing major economy followed by India. In the last quarter of fiscal year 2003-2004, Indian economy grew faster than China but no one speaks of India growing faster than China. On the contrary every one accepts that India is growing atleast 2% point behind China just as Pak is growing atleast 2% point behind India. And within this window of 2% between India & Pak there are atleast 20 economies. Even relatively mature economy like Poland is growing at over 7.5% per annum. Singapore is clocking over 8% growth rate for few years now. Russia, Vietnam all are growing at 7-8%. Where as between China & India there isn't any economy that can match the scale of these two nations. This is why the comparison of Indian economy & Pak economy is simply ludicrous. At $128 billion Pak cannot be considered as a major economy whereas at over a trillion dollar, India is. Comparison can be useful only when Pak's economy grows to the scale of India. Whether it happens or not is something I wouldn't want to comment on.
I find that hard to believe that they are capable of earning $20bn worth of revenues from providing Business Solutions. They are trying to, but I know from personal experience that their performance is below average.

I've found some vendors working with a very flimsy grasp on domain knowledge. Their basic software architecture is at least behind by 3-5 years, the technologies they utilize are almost ALWAYS 2 years behind the norm of today.

seen Micrososft, Oracle, Sybase, Sun Microsystems flocking into Pakistan
Yes India might be reselling their products more than Pakistan but how good is India at making its own products? There is only a limit to where India's superior numbers and extra cash would get them to. Pakistan may not be selling Oracle Financials by the dozen but Pakistan is utilizing Oracle Forms to base their Applications and churning out cheaper ERPs. The trend has already started to move towards OpenSource ERPs even in the west. It might not be today, but it won't make sense to maintain expensive SAP solutions where you can download one and get developers from Pakistan to customize it to your needs.

It's a brave new world. India by no means has it easy and there are so many ways to turn the situation around.
 
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I find that hard to believe that they are capable of earning $20bn worth of revenues from providing Business Solutions. They are trying to, but I know from personal experience that their performance is below average.

Here are the figures for you upto the year 2005-06.(Not including the last year's results)

Indian Software Export Figures - Software Industries and Development - Development Informatics Group - IDPM research (School of Environment and Development - The University of Manchester)

Read the note at the end

Note: figures represent the total for packaged software + customised software + turnkey projects + consulting/other software services. Figures do not include back-office processing exports

I've found some vendors working with a very flimsy grasp on domain knowledge. Their basic software architecture is at least behind by 3-5 years, the technologies they utilize are almost ALWAYS 2 years behind the norm of today.

I don't deal on speculations & personal experiences. Give me a link & we'll talk.

Yes India might be reselling their products more than Pakistan but how good is India at making its own products?

India doesn't deal into products. They are into services & providing solutions.

There is only a limit to where India's superior numbers and extra cash would get them to. Pakistan may not be selling Oracle Financials by the dozen but Pakistan is utilizing Oracle Forms to base their Applications and churning out cheaper ERPs. The trend has already started to move towards OpenSource ERPs even in the west. It might not be today, but it won't make sense to maintain expensive SAP solutions where you can download one and get developers from Pakistan to customize it to your needs.

I am not asking if what Pakistan does with Oracle forms even if it converts them into ERPs making it better than SAP or J.D.Edwards. All I am asking is if you say Pak is matched to India in IT then why hasn't it got major multinational s/w firms opening their development centre there like they have in India.

It's a brave new world. India by no means has it easy and there are so many ways to turn the situation around.

How about we speak about India only when the situation turns around? As of now it is top most outsourcing destination & others are merely trying to incorporate the same model.
 
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Yes India might be reselling their products more than Pakistan but how good is India at making its own products?

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India's capital is coming from IT, but IT will never make up more than 10% of any reasonably healthy economy. India's GDP growth is coming because IT is highly capital intensive, but it does not translate into any important industrial growth, or long term gain. IT exists to make other industries flow more efficiently, it is not an end unto itself. Yes, it will make a fairly small percentage of India or Pakistan's populace middle class, but it does not change much else. They are just living off of the excess capital of other industrialized economies that want cheap tech support. They are in fact only middle class because they can get cheap labor from the downtrodden millions of uneducated laborers who are happy when they can put food on the table at the end of the day. We are talking about turning a nation into a superpower, not "Making a small percentage of the population not desperately poor by leaching off the production of larger economies".

The middle class may someday use their education to modernize farming and industry, which is why anyone is talking about this at all. The capital allows India and Pakistan to make improvements to other more basic industries, but it is still very much in the air as to wither that money will be wisely spent, or merely send the middle class's children to foreign universities.

Here is an interesting factoid. None of the world's largest 100 companies are IT firms. Some banks and trading companies, a few electronics producers along with some telecommunications companies, but not a single IT firm. Think about it.
 
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India's capital is coming from IT, but IT will never make up more than 10% of any reasonably healthy economy. India's GDP growth is coming because IT is highly capital intensive, but it does not translate into any important industrial growth, or long term gain. IT exists to make other industries flow more efficiently, it is not an end unto itself. Yes, it will make a fairly small percentage of India or Pakistan's populace middle class, but it does not change much else. They are just living off of the excess capital of other industrialized economies that want cheap tech support. They are in fact only middle class because they can get cheap labor from the downtrodden millions of uneducated laborers who are happy when they can put food on the table at the end of the day. We are talking about turning a nation into a superpower, not "Making a small percentage of the population not desperately poor by leaching off the production of larger economies".

The middle class may someday use their education to modernize farming and industry, which is why anyone is talking about this at all. The capital allows India and Pakistan to make improvements to other more basic industries, but it is still very much in the air as to wither that money will be wisely spent, or merely send the middle class's children to foreign universities.

Here is an interesting factoid. None of the world's largest 100 companies are IT firms. Some banks and trading companies, a few electronics producers along with some telecommunications companies, but not a single IT firm. Think about it.

IT will never make it to 30,40,50% of GDP,but the money generated by IT is responsible for generating revenues for other sectors. Sectors which feed to people working in IT.
Just like China's economy is kicked off by being a manufacturing base.

And yeah the biggest company in India is not IT either. They are very small compared to Oil gaint like Reliance or manufacturing company like Tata. The difference is these "non-IT gaints" will not let employees generate the amount of money that a IT company does.A 50,000 IT employees will make more money than a 50,000 manufacturing company.Simple as that. If people dont have money to spend, there is no economical growth. Since you are from the US your must be aware of the US economy's dependence on spending habits.
 
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Guys
AsSalam oAlaikum.
I dont see why we are discussing a no hoper. Pakistan is a tiny country with a lot of problems. We are not yet a stable country and there are some major issues to be resolved in this regards. Because of our instability we have only had limited success at attracting investment__ something that is the basis of industrial development. While progress has been made there is still an impression-- right or wrong , thata lot of the reserves have been built up on the sale of various industries and state property as well as support form UncleSam.
Unfortunately we need to learn to crawl before we can run. i still think we are in the crawling/walking stage of development. We need atleast 30-40 yrs of sustained stability and economic development to be called developed, before we can even dream of becoming a superpower.
It may be a fallacy to think that we re any where near the stage to launch ourselves,as our policies, leadership and directions are dependant on the wishes of others. We need to be independant first .
Anyways my2 cs worth
regards
Araz
 
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Pakistan economy is growing at the same rate that India's economy is growing. There will be a time when Pakistan economy will grow faster than that of India's because we will have to face less problems than them. Pakistan has already surpassed India in the past, and it will do so again in the future.

Basically, Pakistan has more prospects of being a developed nation than India given that economy grows fast and democracy returns as soon as possible under Musharraf.
 
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While declaring the emergency on 3 November, the Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf lamented -

I am observing that Capital and Business that was flowing into the country is now stopped - they are now questioning whether to invest here or not Pakistan will remain stable. Our economy, the livelihood of our nation which improved over the last 7 years - in economy, in livelihood, in infrastructure, roads, ports, airports, railways, telecommunication, mobile telephone, landlines, rural telephone, information technology, building and construction, the entrepreneurs across the land, the rapid development across Pakistan, the thousands of industries launched, water irrigation, dams, canals, canals with brick linings, water courses, and then the social sector, education, health on the primary and secondary level, and education at every level - on all these Pakistan was moving forward, all this. I am very saddened, God Forbid, that 7 years of hard work may be washed away. [CM]

Shanta Devarajan, the Chief Economist of the South Asia Region at the World Bank, puts some figures to probate the General’s rhetoric.

Since 1999, the Pakistan government has undertaken a series of macroeconomic and structural reforms and Pakistan’s GDP growth rate has accelerated. It has been averaging well over 7 percent a year over the last three years. Poverty has been declining steadily at about one percentage point a year during this period. Despite rising world oil prices, inflation has largely been kept under control. Nevertheless, there are two sources of concern on the macroeconomic front. The current account has gone from a surplus of one percent of GDP four years ago to a deficit of 4.9 percent of GDP today. And export growth has declined sharply from 14 percent a year two years ago to 3 percent this year.

Moreover, Pakistan suffers from a huge “human development deficit.” In 1997, child mortality rates in Pakistan and Bangladesh were the same, at about 114 child deaths per 1000 births. Today, Bangladesh’s rate is 77 and Pakistan’s 101. In addition to low enrolment rates, especially for girls, there is evidence that the quality of education is extremely poor. In a sample of (better off) Punjabi villages, the share of 10-year-olds who could do single-digit addition and subtraction was 29 percent. These problems of basic service delivery cannot be solved without the active participation of communities and parents. In fact, the number of private schools has risen dramatically–from 32,000 in 2001 and 47,000 in 2005. [EPISA]
The Indian Economy Blog » Pakistan - Emergency & Economy

The position.
 
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Pakistan economy is growing at the same rate that India's economy is growing.

I disagree India is posting 9% growth as compared to Pakistan's 7% + India's grey/black/underground economy is acc. to experts b/w 30-100% of our Gdp...

even though for the sake of argument let us assume there is no underground economy and both are growing at 7%,,
Indian Gdp is 1,000bn$ 7% growth means addition of 70bn$ p.a
Pakistani gdp is 150bn$ 7% growth means addition of 10.5bn$ p.a
now compare to this US gdp is 10,000bn$ 2% growth means an addition of 200bn$ pa
:chilli:

BTW just yesterday a BBC report said India will post double digit growth...

There will be a time when Pakistan economy will grow faster than that of India's because we will have to face less problems than them.

If Pakistan has less problems implies Pakistan will grow but are you trying to say that India will have problems then.. I mean are number of problems in Pakistan inversely propotional to the number of problems in India??
or do you believe Pakistan can solve their problems while India cannot??
:confused:

anyways
As per above calculation reduce India's growth to nil and let Pakistan's be 10% how much time will it take it to overtake India???
!!!roughly 20 years......!!!
and if it is 7% that is the current gr it will take you guys 30 years... to reach present Indian standards..


Pakistan has already surpassed India in the past, and it will do so again in the future.


When was that??? :eek:

Some food for thought.. the 4 richest Indians are worth 180bn$ Pakistani economy is 150bn$,,, :tongue:


see per capita Pakistan can exceed India but as a collective nation Pakistan will always be in India's shadow.. + PPP will always be a big factor..

because although Indian govt is helping the Pakistani cause by being an impediment but Pakistanis do not want their country to progress.. simple... so I don't see how Pakistan at present can overtake India on any parameter..

Anyways one in five human in the world is an Indian.. Indian middle class is 2ce the size of Pakistan's population.. which is a bigger market?? which has more growth potential?? which will be bigger on absolute terms??


Basically, Pakistan has more prospects of being a developed nation than India given that economy grows fast and democracy returns as soon as possible under Musharraf.

I don't know how you are saying this but... Alright even if Pakistan becomes a developed nation it can never quite match the stature of India for eg.. Belgium is developed.. CHina is not.. who has more power?? Luxembourg has world's highest pci.. how does it help??

anyways from what is commonly observed smaller countries usually have higher per capita indicators. countries with large populations usually have higher gdps.. Pakistan is not small by any stretch of imagination...nor has a tiny population...

I would rather see my country having freedom for all, opportunities for all, equality for all with a decent standard of living than .. be a divided society or have a rich class apathetic to poverty around them or have issues of wealth distribution a la China...

If being developed means we will become sensitive to issues around us, can live without discrimination and fear then why not.. else being developed or not is as useful as being in the commonwealth..
 
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Aryan,

I think you are misunderstanding the references to matching or exceeding Indian growth - no one is suggesting that the Pakistani economy is going to leapfrog the Indian economy in actual size - the references are to growth rates and PPP. The argument is that you don't have to be a billion plus nation to actually make your presence felt, and people have argued that Japan and Germany could arguable be considered examples of nations with a tremendous potential for achieving "superpower" status.

Also, with India's larger economy come the headaches of managing and providing for a billion plus people - not an easy task, but not an impossible one either. Pakistan does not have to match the Indian economy dollar for dollar. Our economic size will be reflective of our country's size.
 
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