Pakistan as a superpower?

[roadrunner]

Didn't the soviet union crumble like a mud house onto itself without anyone firing a single shot?

Sure it did..when they made the transformation to democracy and glasnost.

 

[HK-47]

I sometimes feel Pakistan is better off without having democracy-no politics or associated problems like we have/had which held back our growth.

 

[kernayl]

Sure it did..when they made the transformation to democracy and glasnost.

Brother, i wonder how you are obsessed with idea of Pakistan becoming a super power. If Pakistan can become a decent country that will be quite an achievment.

At present Pakistani passport is one of the most trouble-attracting document across the world. Pakistanisare riduculed, de-humanized everwhere. 1 american is worth million Pakis.

 

[roadrunner]

Brother, i wonder how you are obsessed with idea of Pakistan becoming a super power.

Errrr..Because that's what the title of this thread is about perhaps?

At present Pakistani passport is one of the most trouble-attracting document across the world. Pakistanisare riduculed, de-humanized everwhere. 1 american is worth million Pakis.

You sound a bit paranoid, considering the amount the West is investing in Pakistan including universities there. You're not highly religious by any chance are you?

 

[kernayl]

Errrr..Because that's what the title of this thread is about perhaps?



You sound a bit paranoid, considering the amount the West is investing in Pakistan including universities there. You're not highly religious by any chance are you?

No am not of the religious sort, living with people from different religions and backgrounds has taught me tolerance and respect for all.

But i think you are neglecting what Pakistan's worth is in the world. You would know if you have been around the world.

 

[roadrunner]

But i think you are neglecting what Pakistan's worth is in the world. You would know if you have been around the world.

So elaborate on what I am neglecting? You're saying it's a superpower already?

 

[solid snake]

I think it's silly for Pakistani's (and people of some other nationalities *cough*) to dream of becoming a superpower. A superpower is a country with the ability to influence world events; a country which is capable of deploying it's military to any location on earth within a matter of hours. A superpower is a country with vast natural resources and an economy of gargantuan proportions. Currently there is only 1 superpower in the world; not even the likes of Russia and China are anywhere near the US.

If you take the US as the benchmark for being a superpower, how is Pakistan to become one? In the 1930's millions of Americans were starving to death. Yet only a decade later the transformation had begun. The US is a huge country blessed with all sorts of natural resources. American children recieved free education until high school. Everyone spoke English and had a sense of unity. Corruption was rampant by today's standards, but there were always checks and balances in place and eventually the bad guys used to end up in jail. From the day the country declared independence from the British, a strong democratic culture has prevailed.

Are these things happening in Pakistan? No. We have 4 provinces with different philosophies and demands. Many different languages and a population that identifies itself as a Punjabi, Sindhi, Balochi, Pathan etc instead of as Pakistani. Due to various reasons, we have the military very heavily involved in civilian sector.

We have to fix a lot of things. Our first and foremost priority should be the education sector. We need a uniform standardized syllabus for all children of the country. Why is it that the kids of a rich family recieve an education on par with the best private schools of the US, but children of poor people only begin to learn the English alphabet in middle school? The GDP share of education should be jacked up at the expense of some other sector.

As it stands, Pakistan is rapidly improving. The economy grows steadily, the middle class is growing, and despite complaints that there is no trickle down effect, I see the average person's life improving compared to how it used to be in the past.

Can Pakistan ever achieve the kind of global dominance that the US enjoys today? I doubt it; unless the rest of the world is submerged by rising ocean waters and Pakistan's himalayas are some of the last places left to live on earth (Americans would simply move to the moon). But what we can become is a developed, rich country with a happy population. I think Germany should be our role model. It is a country a little smaller than Pakistan, and if we can achieve the same standard of life Germans enjoy, I think it would be quite an achievement. There is no need to be a superpower, I am sure Australians, Germans, Italians, Greeks etc are just as, if not happier than Americans are today.

And for some *other* countries dreaming of becoming superpowers, let me tell you that it will be very hard to displace the US as the worlds only superpower. By nature, there can only by 1-2 superpowers in the world at one time. The most likely challanger to Uncle Sam's throne is China. But you need much more than cheap labor and trade to become an 'empire'. You need things like Hollywood. You are reading this right now on an American designed forum format (Vbulliten), through an American invention (the internet), on an American operating system (Windows/Mac) and maybe even an American server. America won't just roll over and let other countries threaten the extravagant lifestyle of it's citizens. Because there just aren't enough resources in this world for everyone to live like Americans.

At present Pakistani passport is one of the most trouble-attracting document across the world. Pakistanisare riduculed, de-humanized everwhere. 1 american is worth million Pakis.

That's funny, when I came to the US I was greeted by a friendly customs officer who stamped my passport, fingerprinted me, asked me about the earthquake (2005) and said "welcome to the United States". I guess you were just unlucky to be singled out

 

[roadrunner]

Detailed reply. From what I could see you say that you need natural resources, no corruption to be a superpower and unity. The Soviets were full of different ethnic groups, the Americans don't have much in the way of natural resources, and virtually every nation is corrupt (just depends on how much of the GDP they're willing to steal). I agree Pakistan needs reforming. But that wasn't the question. The question was can it become a superpower. The only part I saw answer this was

"Can Pakistan ever achieve the kind of global dominance that the US enjoys today? I doubt it; unless the rest of the world is submerged by rising ocean waters and Pakistan's himalayas are some of the last places left to live on earth (Americans would simply move to the moon). But what we can become is a developed, rich country with a happy population."

And that's fine, you don't believe that Pakistan can ever be a superpower. But you don't give any reason. I've given to several ways in which Pakistan might gain political influence in the future, and militarily it's getting there. So why not? Reasons please.

 

[solid snake]

And that's fine, you don't believe that Pakistan can ever be a superpower. But you don't give any reason. I've given to several ways in which Pakistan might gain political influence in the future, and militarily it's getting there. So why not? Reasons please.

Do you honestly believe Pakistan can be as strong as the US someday? Other factors aside, simply by being bigger than us, Americans will always hold an edge. There is a reason the UK could no longer maintain it's grasp on places like the 13 colonies in north America and later India. It's simply not large enough. Pakistan, just like Germany or South Korea or France, is not big enough to be a superpower.

Currently only the US, China and Russia are large enough to be superpowers. When Canada and Australia catch up in terms of population, they will be in the running too. Brazil is another country but it harbors no military ambitions so it will never become a super power either.

When a Pakistani/Indian thinks of the word 'super power', they think of F-22's and aircraft carriers. I think of teenaged girls shopping till they drop at the mall every weekend.

What does Pakistan have to offer the world that we can export en-masse? Thousands of songs come out everyday in America which are played on radio stations all over the world. Hollywood's movies are getting unbelieveably good and no other country can compete with the quality of it's movies. America is a brand name; young people all over the world want to live like American teenagers. Pakistan dosen't have that.

A super power's citizens live the good life. American people mostly live in suburban homes with a basement and attic with at least 2 cars (usually at least 4) in the drive way. Pakistan and India are so cramped and polluted already that it would be impossible to raise living standards to even the levels of Europe.

Until per capita income goes up enough that Pakistan enters the top 30 list, forget about being a superpower.

 

[roadrunner]

Do you honestly believe Pakistan can be as strong as the US someday?

Why not? When one superpower comes the other one goes. Is there a reason why it can't be one? If so, I'm all ears..

Other factors aside, simply by being bigger than us, Americans will always hold an edge. There is a reason the UK could no longer maintain it's grasp on places like the 13 colonies in north America and later India. It's simply not large enough. Pakistan, just like Germany or South Korea or France, is not big enough to be a superpower.

You brought up Germany. In fact, Germany was the superpower for much of the last century. Militarily, economically, even politically. Small population, but formidable, yet geostrategic positioning still wasn't that good (though it was in the centre of Europe). The Russians had a bigger population. I would say Pakistan has the ideal geostrategic position. Military is good, but soon should be very good, it will be an arms exporter soon. Economy is the only other thing. What is preventing a strong economy from occuring? I don't see much considering its growth. India might be able to sell more stuff and buy more from other countries, but what good will that do? That sort of stuff won't give it political influence.

Currently only the US, China and Russia are large enough to be superpowers.

Wrong. Pakistan's population is in fact bigger than Russia's. China's is huge, The US is tiny compared. Yet the US and Russia were (and still are) generally considered to eb the superpowers (the Russians have faded, but it still is a substantial power).

When Canada and Australia catch up in terms of population, they will be in the running too. Brazil is another country but it harbors no military ambitions so it will never become a super power either.

Not a chance of Canada or Australia. Both are growing slowly, economically, and don't have much geostrategic importance. In the world today, it's all about energy, and Pakistan happens to be strangely located in just the right place. It's even better placed than Afghanistan in the Great Game.

When a Pakistani/Indian thinks of the word 'super power', they think of F-22's and aircraft carriers. I think of teenaged girls shopping till they drop at the mall every weekend.

What does Pakistan have to offer the world that we can export en-masse? Thousands of songs come out everyday in America which are played on radio stations all over the world. Hollywood's movies are getting unbelieveably good and no other country can compete with the quality of it's movies. America is a brand name; young people all over the world want to live like American teenagers. Pakistan dosen't have that.

Well, I don't want to live like American teeangers

I'm not sure you're getting my point. The question is does Pakistan have the potential to become a superpower. Let's ignore the largely illiterate population right now (40%). Somewhere in the future it will have 100% literacy, it will have good universities, and it will be exporting intellectual property. One can look at the progress since partition to see both India and Pakistan are headed in the right direction. I see no reason why Pakistan cannot be a world leader in producing something, when its pre-Islamic history has shown it can produce and invent some of the most advanceed technology anywhere. It's all a question of stability, which it has/will have.

A super power's citizens live the good life. American people mostly live in suburban homes with a basement and attic with at least 2 cars (usually at least 4) in the drive way. Pakistan and India are so cramped and polluted already that it would be impossible to raise living standards to even the levels of Europe.

Until per capita income goes up enough that Pakistan enters the top 30 list, forget about being a superpower.

Right, again I'm not talking about the current situation. I'm asking whether Pakistan CAN be a superpower in the future when illiteracy has been eradicated and it is producing to its maximum.

 

[solid snake]

Why not? When one superpower comes the other one goes. Is there a reason why it can't be one? If so, I'm all ears..

It would be one mighty come-from-behind victory if Pakistan does someday triumph over the US

You brought up Germany. In fact, Germany was the superpower for much of the last century. Militarily, economically, even politically. Small population, but formidable, yet geostrategic positioning still wasn't that good (though it was in the centre of Europe). The Russians had a bigger population. I would say Pakistan has the ideal geostrategic position. Military is good, but soon should be very good, it will be an arms exporter soon. Economy is the only other thing. What is preventing a strong economy from occuring? I don't see much considering its growth. India might be able to sell more stuff and buy more from other countries, but what good will that do? That sort of stuff won't give it political influence...

Germany was a superpower. So was the UK, but it never will be again. The world isn't the same as it was in 1637 or 1937. Now a country needs a large market to be able to attract investors who will pump cash into the economy. Back in the day when Germany was a superpower, pretty much every country not inhabited by white people was a dump. Now it's all about money. We could become one of the top 5 most powerful countries in the world in terms of economy or purchasing power, but that isn't good enough to be a super power is it?

Wrong. Pakistan's population is in fact bigger than Russia's. China's is huge, The US is tiny compared. Yet the US and Russia were (and still are) generally considered to eb the superpowers (the Russians have faded, but it still is a substantial power).

I know Pakistan is the 6th most populous country in the world and has more people than Russia. But in our case, that is not a good thing. Population density is a major indicator of quality of life, and the US and China's is pretty low. Imagine if we had only 20 million people like Australia, we'd all be living in huge houses and clean cities and every kid would go to school. This is one of the severe problems facing Pakistan and India; our populations are already way higher than they ever should be. Pakistan's population density is 198 persons/km² and India's is 336 persons/km². The situation in both countries is so bad I think desperate measures need to be taken in the form of the draconian one-child policy invented by China.

Not a chance of Canada or Australia. Both are growing slowly, economically, and don't have much geostrategic importance. In the world today, it's all about energy, and Pakistan happens to be strangely located in just the right place. It's even better placed than Afghanistan in the Great Game.

As more and more Mexicans invade the US, I predict a lot of white Americans will move to Canada. When that happens, many innovative companies will move there. Don't rule out Canada just yet. Australia will one day have 300 million people, and by that time the US will be bursting at the seams. Again, migration will occur and already lots of talented people prefer to move to Australia due to the high quality of life there. And like Pakistan, Australia has the ideal climate for solar energy production, so that might be something to think about.

Well, I don't want to live like American teeangers

NOBODY ever wants to admit it, but I know better

I'm not sure you're getting my point. The question is does Pakistan have the potential to become a superpower. Let's ignore the largely illiterate population right now (40&#37. Somewhere in the future it will have 100% literacy, it will have good universities, and it will be exporting intellectual property. One can look at the progress since partition to see both India and Pakistan are headed in the right direction. I see no reason why Pakistan cannot be a world leader in producing something, when its pre-Islamic history has shown it can produce and invent some of the most advanceed technology anywhere. It's all a question of stability, which it has/will have.

And I maintain that Pakistan does not have the potential to become a super power for reasons summarized here:

1. Population already too high and growing at alarming rate.

2. Few natural resources to speak of. As global warming happens, our water supplies from the northern mountains will be threatened.

3. Other countries like the US won't stand still, they are infact speeding up.

4. Americans are preparing to build bases on the moon before 2030 and we don't even have a space program to speak off. It's in space that future super powers will battle.

5. Our culture is anti-progressive. Don't want to point fingers, but elected officials of a certain party found it fit to deface billboard bearing female faces as more important than dealing with education issues. Little girls are threatened if they go to school.

6. No respect for law. It is just embarrasing how many times the constitution has been ripped to shreds by our leaders. How can we become a super power when we don't even follow our own laws?

7. No tolerance for freedom of speech. Some guy in Denmark draws a cartoon, millions of Pakistani's flip out and start burning restaurants located in their own cities.

I think all of these traits need to be present in a society before it can truly become a modern super power. Even China is gradually relaxing it's strict culture for a more 'westernized' approach to things.

Remember: capitalism is the number 1 source to power. Be obsessed with money because anyone who is rich can buy anything he wants.

Despite everything, I do think Pakistan can become a rich, stable, 'land of the pure' one day. Maybe we could be 'indirect-superpowers' with the help of China. If China becomes the daddy of the world like the US is now, we could pretty much do whatever we wanted and get away with it.

 

[roadrunner]

It would be one mighty come-from-behind victory if Pakistan does someday triumph over the US

I'm sure everyone was laughing in the 1500's also when anyone suggested that Turkey could be relegated from the expanse of the Ottoman Empire, to a landmass smaller than the Congo and have trouble defeating Kurdish insurgents armed with a couple of toothpicks. But it's happened.

Germany was a superpower. So was the UK, but it never will be again.

Well, you're wrong. Germany, the UK could become superpowers again. A more united Europe will cause the countries within it to benefit. One of them could easily rise out of the cooperation. It's impossible to say that the UK or Germany cannot be superpowers ever again. Germany has done it enough times last century.

The world isn't the same as it was in 1637 or 1937. Now a country needs a large market to be able to attract investors who will pump cash into the economy. Back in the day when Germany was a superpower, pretty much every country not inhabited by white people was a dump. Now it's all about money.

Well economies have always been about money.

When Germany was a superpower, I agree the non white nations were a dump. So what? In the Middle Ages, the Chinese economy was the largest and the "white" nations were a dump. After this the subcontinent was the largest, the "white" nation were as dump.

On the subject of needing investors, why exactly would this preclude a place like Pakistan, when Pakistan is having tens of billions in investment from Arab countries alone? In other words, why would this stop being Pakistan from being a superpower, or, why can't Pakistan get this investment?

We could become one of the top 5 most powerful countries in the world in terms of economy or purchasing power, but that isn't good enough to be a super power is it?

Why couldn't it become the largest economy in the world? I'm not sure you've given a reason, except that you'd much rather invest in the US yourself.

I know Pakistan is the 6th most populous country in the world and has more people than Russia. But in our case, that is not a good thing. Population density is a major indicator of quality of life, and the US and China's is pretty low. Imagine if we had only 20 million people like Australia, we'd all be living in huge houses and clean cities and every kid would go to school. This is one of the severe problems facing Pakistan and India; our populations are already way higher than they ever should be. Pakistan's population density is 198 persons/km² and India's is 336 persons/km². The situation in both countries is so bad I think desperate measures need to be taken in the form of the draconian one-child policy invented by China.

Well, I'm actually arguing that population means diddlysquat when it comes to creating a superpower. The US and Russia did it, the Germans did it with very few people.

As more and more Mexicans invade the US, I predict a lot of white Americans will move to Canada. When that happens, many innovative companies will move there. Don't rule out Canada just yet.

Oh please It's not going to happen.

Australia will one day have 300 million people, and by that time the US will be bursting at the seams. Again, migration will occur and already lots of talented people prefer to move to Australia due to the high quality of life there. And like Pakistan, Australia has the ideal climate for solar energy production, so that might be something to think about.

Look, Australia has no political influence, no geostrategic position, it's just isolated in the middle of the ocean. The only thing that might happen is that the population increases and everyone heads off to work there like you say, but the world is not big enough for so many superpowers. When China comes, you will find America not being able to sustain itself. I would say that the reason China, India, Pakistan are in an artificially low position now is colonialism (in the case of India it's its own fault), but this position will change at the expense of other countries.

NOBODY ever wants to admit it, but I know better

Well, you're wrong on that. I know several people ("white" in fact) that wouldn't consider moving to the US on count of the accent they might end up developing (or at least that's what they say). It has its good points like a lot of other nations though.

1. Population already too high and growing at alarming rate.

Population is irrelevant. Superpowers with small or large populations have existed.

2. Few natural resources to speak of. As global warming happens, our water supplies from the northern mountains will be threatened.

Why do you think this will only affect Pakistan? It will affect everyone equally, so it shouldn't put Pakistan at a disadvantage in the superpower "stakes".

3. Other countries like the US won't stand still, they are infact speeding up.

Economic growth in the US isn't speeding up to the same extent as Asia. China, India, Pakistan have the biggest economic growths currently.

4. Americans are preparing to build bases on the moon before 2030 and we don't even have a space program to speak off. It's in space that future super powers will battle.

I think you're watching too much Star Wars. Space battles and warp drives are "light years" away. Millenia probably. We're not going to see that for hundreds of years by that time the US will have come and gone, so will China and many other superpowers. One will follow the other and build on the technology of the last superpower, so who knows who will finally develop the warp drive. Perhaps it will be the Mexicans!

5. Our culture is anti-progressive. Don't want to point fingers, but elected officials of a certain party found it fit to deface billboard bearing female faces as more important than dealing with education issues. Little girls are threatened if they go to school.

Try and get this out your head and answer the question posted please. Yes, there's these maniacs (as in every society), but the question is this..

"CAN PAKISTAN BECOME A SUPERPOWER?"

- Forget about the illiterates you mention, since this can and will change. Pakistan is heading towards 100% literacy, and by that time fools like those will be subdued.

6. No respect for law. It is just embarrasing how many times the constitution has been ripped to shreds by our leaders. How can we become a super power when we don't even follow our own laws?

Again, not talking about this. Does Pakistan possess the potential to become a superpower. Pakistan is not going to be forever ripping up Constitutions and changing laws.

7. No tolerance for freedom of speech. Some guy in Denmark draws a cartoon, millions of Pakistani's flip out and start burning restaurants located in their own cities.

Again down to illiteracy. This will change and is changing. Not answering th question.

I think all of these traits need to be present in a society before it can truly become a modern super power. Even China is gradually relaxing it's strict culture for a more 'westernized' approach to things.

Most of the "traits" you mention come with the eradication of illiteracy. Given time this will happen in Pakistan. When it does what is stopping it from becoming a superpower? I think you're only able to think unidimenionally. Cultures change, improve, go down, go up and so on. Once Pakistan was the centre of learning, then it was not, once Al Andalus was, then it was not. These traits comes and go.

Remember: capitalism is the number 1 source to power. Be obsessed with money because anyone who is rich can buy anything he wants.

Despite everything, I do think Pakistan can become a rich, stable, 'land of the pure' one day. Maybe we could be 'indirect-superpowers' with the help of China. If China becomes the daddy of the world like the US is now, we could pretty much do whatever we wanted and get away with it.

Socialist economies have done pretty well, and are doing well. The Soviets from the past and the Chinese now. I don't think you can say capitalist economies are the be all and end all. Not with China rising in the way it is.

 

[Flintlock]

Socialist economies have done pretty well, and are doing well. The Soviets from the past and the Chinese now. I don't think you can say capitalist economies are the be all and end all. Not with China rising in the way it is.

China is capitalist.

Infact, China is run like a profit making company.

 

[su-47]

It all depends on your definition of superpower. Japan has a large economy, 4 trilliion, second largest, but it doesnt have a good military from what I know. So does it qualify for superpower status?

Japan has a reasonably strong military. And it has the capability to be a military power if it wishes. They have the technology and the monetary resources to be the greatest military in the world after the USA. They also have the tech to be a nuclear power if they want. The only thing they lack is military aspiration.

 

[roadrunner]

China is capitalist.

Infact, China is run like a profit making company.

Isn't that exactly what socialism is? Profit making is not discouraged in a socialist economy. China has a socialist market economy.