Pakistan Army's VT-4 Main Battle Tank | Updates & Discussions

[Figaro]

I don't get one thing...
Can we not toss shitloads of ATGMs and cluster bombs at Indians? What even is the point of a tank? I get that in WW2 infantry with guns can't touch tanks but today with missiles n stuff tanks are kind of useless

How many ATGMs and cluster munitions can you throw at the Indians? They have thousands of T-72s and T-90s. Also, ground attack from air will be much more difficult due to both sides constantly vying for local air superiority, which means the burden of ground offensives will still fall to the humble MBT and artillery, specifically MLRS. Besides, tanks are still needed for breakthroughs on the ground ... what you speak of are primarily defensive weapons. I do assume PA will try to go on the offensive as soon as a possible breakthrough/weak point in the Indian lines are spotted.

 

[waz]

I don't get one thing...
Can we not toss shitloads of ATGMs and cluster bombs at Indians? What even is the point of a tank? I get that in WW2 infantry with guns can't touch tanks but today with missiles n stuff tanks are kind of useless

Yes Pakistan has thousands of ATGM's, which can take out their T-72's, and impact the T-90's. But they are not coming in by themselves, and the IA will deploy tens of thousands infantry with them, including snipers who will aim to hit ATGM teams. The lessons of the Yon Kippur war are taught to every competent military.
You also have to remember that tanks can close the distance very quickly, so repeat salvos of ATGM's will not be as effective, and superior ground numbers will be on top of you.
Cluster bombs from the PAF? Well they have more than enough on their plate with the IAF, and we have no independent air wing defending the navy, so that's two major concerns for them.
It's a fact that we all have to contend with i.e. that due to the large land border we share with India, we need a great deal of tanks to blunt their amoured push.

 

[Sal12]

Though the economic situation does not allow this but PA needs to raise 2 army corps i.e one for northern Sindh and one for Gilgit baltistan to make the IA offensive difficult in those regions.

 

[ARMalik]

What if the indians do this:
They launch a strong armd thrust towards the central sindh as a part of a diversionary plan. The five corps perceives it to be the main attack of indian south western command but it is not and the 5 corps send most of its forces to meet that attack and after the indians know that most of the 5 corps is busy the may launch their main attack that is move in the Northern sindh which is the area of responsibility of 5 corps so they pass without little or no resistance and from the motorway turn north and outflank rahim yar khan from the south. Until they enter the AOR of bahawalpur corps they will have a clear run and its very difficult to stop an armd striking force once its in full momentum. Though pakistan has some defence canals but they prove to be insufficient. Rahim yar khan os a very imp junction and on the negotiation table every inch counts. Pakistan may use its 2 strike corps but it'll jeopardize the whole offensive capability of PA. Only airforce would be able to delay them and Pakistan would be forced to use nasr View attachment 674626
Legend:
Green shows the diversionary attack by india
Red shows the main attack of india after the main Karachi Corps has been
Blue shows the flanking move by the main indian thrust towards Rahim yar khan
Purple shows the AOR of bahawalpur corps (roughly)

And that is why there are battlefield tactical Nukes to ensure India under no circumstances can take large parts of Pakistan. Make no mistake - These nukes will be used against India IF such a scenario arises. Not only this, these nukes will be used against any NEIGHBOR who tries to indulge in any misadventure.

 

[Signalian]

I don't get one thing...
What even is the point of a tank?

Tank is well protected against all kinds of threats, has the highest HP engine than other weapon systems operating with it to cover the distance, can fire different kinds of munitions to tackle MBTs, IFV, hardened infantry positions like bunkers and other buildings, low flying gunships and is expected to be the last machine standing on the battlefield after the onslaught is over.

What you could have asked is,

1. Which PA MBTs including VT-4 can fire ATGM from their main guns ?

2. Can Tank guns be configured as Artillery howitzers/guns to fire cluster ammo ?

 

[The Accountant]

I am not talking in a literal sense, I am talking about post war negotiations, Please keep a level head in your response. If we capture Amritsar as opposed to capturing the police post at Munabao again what do you think is of more strategic value?

We had generals like u in 1971 and everyone knows the result.

So u mean people of munavao are tradeable to u ? And who tell u we can capture amritsar ?

Sorry cant level my head with insanity.

 

[The Accountant]

PA armoured forces needs support from PAF apart from mobile land AD systems. The gunships wont be able to operate with PA armor in Indian territory/airspace unless PAF is present.

Do u mean defence of sky or CAS ? I feel PAF wouldnt be able to provide CAS role due to comparatively lesser no aircraft for air defence altough they should provide complete air cover atleast at our own skies

 

[The Accountant]

What if the indians do this:
They launch a strong armd thrust towards the central sindh as a part of a diversionary plan. The five corps perceives it to be the main attack of indian south western command but it is not and the 5 corps send most of its forces to meet that attack and after the indians know that most of the 5 corps is busy the may launch their main attack that is move in the Northern sindh which is the area of responsibility of 5 corps so they pass without little or no resistance and from the motorway turn north and outflank rahim yar khan from the south. Until they enter the AOR of bahawalpur corps they will have a clear run and its very difficult to stop an armd striking force once its in full momentum. Though pakistan has some defence canals but they prove to be insufficient. Rahim yar khan os a very imp junction and on the negotiation table every inch counts. Pakistan may use its 2 strike corps but it'll jeopardize the whole offensive capability of PA. Only airforce would be able to delay them and Pakistan would be forced to use nasr View attachment 674626
Legend:
Green shows the diversionary attack by india
Red shows the main attack of india after the main Karachi Corps has been
Blue shows the flanking move by the main indian thrust towards Rahim yar khan
Purple shows the AOR of bahawalpur corps (roughly)

I think we need to use smart weaponary here. As suggested earlier we need to mass produce cheap drones with lower ranges (to save cost) but with capability to take out armoured vehicles including tanks ... Drone can cover a much larger area and have much lesser reaction time then armour itself. The cost of drone could also be reduced aignificantly if we mass produce them and keep them simple.

500 to 1000 drones with an investment of 200 to 400 million dollars can give a real boast to take on against armoured thrust. However key here is reaction time. Armoured thrust has to be stopped before entering into the main cities

 

[The Accountant]

Tank is well protected against all kinds of threats, has the highest HP engine than other weapon systems operating with it to cover the distance, can fire different kinds of munitions to tackle MBTs, IFV, hardened infantry positions like bunkers and other buildings, low flying gunships and is expected to be the last machine standing on the battlefield after the onslaught is over.

What you could have asked is,

1. Which PA MBTs including VT-4 can fire ATGM from their main guns ?

2. Can Tank guns be configured as Artillery howitzers/guns to fire cluster ammo ?

What is cost of active protection? Can we upgrade AK and T85UD with these active protection system installed on VT4?

Furthermore, for armoury the biggest threat is CBU 105 ? So what of type tactics or equipment they have to counter an attack from top from precision guided munition ?

 

[Khan vilatey]

I think we need to use smart weaponary here. As suggested earlier we need to mass produce cheap drones with lower ranges (to save cost) but with capability to take out armoured vehicles including tanks ... Drone can cover a much larger area and have much lesser reaction time then armour itself. The cost of drone could also be reduced aignificantly if we mass produce them and keep them simple.

500 to 1000 drones with an investment of 200 to 400 million dollars can give a real boast to take on against armoured thrust. However key here is reaction time. Armoured thrust has to be stopped before entering into the main cities

I completely agree the recent baraq training facility means Pakistani planners are planning on incorporating significant numbers of armed drones for CAS duties. CH4 and CH5 wing long 2 will be fielded in 1000s

k

 

[CriticalThought]

Yes Pakistan has thousands of ATGM's, which can take out their T-72's, and impact the T-90's. But they are not coming in by themselves, and the IA will be deploy tens of thousands infantry with them, including snipers who will aim to hit ATGM teams. The lessons of the Yon Kippur war are taught to every competent military.
You also have to remember that tanks can close the distance very quickly, so repeat salvos of ATGM's will not be as effective, and superior ground numbers will be on top of you.
Cluster bombs from the PAF? Well they have more than enough on their plate with the IAF, and we have no independent air wing defending the navy, so that's two major concerns for them.
It's a fact that we all have to contend with i.e. that due to the large land border we share with India, we need a great deal of tanks to blunt their amoured push.

I feel that the role of air borne drones has not been given the importance that it should receive. It would be far cheaper to manufacture and operate large numbers of CAS type drones equipped with an indigenous Hellfire type missile. I guess one of the objectives of Azm is exactly that. And if that comes to pass, I feel the requirements of PA with regards to armor could change over the coming years.

Another overlooked equipment is IFVs equipped with missiles. They have the dual benefits of bringing both firepower and infantry to the battlefield.

And finally, there are MLRS for really big firepower. What is the use of a large amount of armor when these alternatives are available?

 

[The Accountant]

I feel that the role of air borne drones has not been given the importance that it should receive. It would be far cheaper to manufacture and operate large numbers of CAS type drones equipped with an indigenous Hellfire type missile. I guess one of the objectives of Azm is exactly that. And if that comes to pass, I feel the requirements of PA with regards to armor could change over the coming years.

Another overlooked equipment is IFVs equipped with missiles. They have the dual benefits of bringing both firepower and infantry to the battlefield.

And finally, there are MLRS for really big firepower. What is the use of a large amount of armor when these alternatives are available?

I agree with all except for the armour part ... Armoured is required to hold the ground and to stop enemy advance ... Except for the required air cover armour is key offense and defence equipments. Without armour in the front MLRS and other equipments are difficult to defend.

Furthermore remember where drone could be an excellent CAS system but its not a defensive equipment. With limited fire power and comparatively higher per hour cost using them to hold ground is unrealistic.

Armor are still important in any battlefield ...

 

[Signalian]

Do u mean defence of sky or CAS ? I feel PAF wouldnt be able to provide CAS role due to comparatively lesser no aircraft for air defence altough they should provide complete air cover atleast at our own skies

Both actually, but keeping the skies clear predominantly.

 

[Signalian]

What is cost of active protection? Can we upgrade AK and T85UD with these active protection system installed on VT4?

If cost effective, APS should be installed on all MBTs. Bursting of ERA bricks can be hazardous to nearby troops.

Furthermore, for armoury the biggest threat is CBU 105 ? So what of type tactics or equipment they have to counter an attack from top from precision guided munition ?

My thoughts are here:

Pakistan Army - AIR DEFENCE CORPS - Formation, Structure, Weapons

I have been asked repeatedly to create a thread on Army AIR DEFENCE and every time I had to paste a post that i wrote earlier in a thread so now i am creating a new topic. Army AD formations hold confidential information in terms of TOE, deployment, weaponry and Radar systems. I will give a...

defence.pk

 

[Ghost 125]

. Bursting of ERA bricks can be hazardous to nearby troops.

so is the explosion of incoming projectile by APS. incoming ATGM is taken out very close to tank itself by APS projectiles. but that should not be a problem. inf can be taught how to operate with tanks.