Pakistan army 'exercising' near border adjoining Jaisalmer

[Signalian]

Rajasthan is just a desert so its not worth capturing. However we should focus on IoJ&K and Punjab. Both of these places should be freed from India.

Capturing a city in desert e.g Jaisalmer, ties up enemy forces in re-capturing lost territory instead of making a thrust inside Pakistan. The enemy armoured division and brigades will then start flanking and cutting-off manouvers to re-capture lost area.

While the area is defended by own Holding forces or Infantry, the accompanying armoured and mechanised get freed up to either counter-attack the attacking enemy forces on that area OR advance to capture a new area inside enemy territory further frustrating the enemy.

This is like turning the tables of cold start doctrine on India.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

I dont share your ideas of firing bullets.
But I seriously hope you know what a bullet means. You know the thing that comes out of a gun..


Good joke boy [/Q
Than you mama ji

 

[ali_raza]

jaisalmer is like battle of kursk.when germans whated to capture kursk bulge.classic exaple of encirclement for indians.the only difference is russians had 4400 kms of trnches and indians have non

 

[Signalian]

jaisalmer is like battle of kursk.when germans whated to capture kursk bulge.classic exaple of encirclement for indians.the only difference is russians had 4400 kms of trnches and indians have non

you are right about the reference of kursk with jaisalmer. Western Russia and South-Western India are excellent tank territory for tank battles. However, this is also a weak spot for Pakistan if exploited by Indian tanks so a Pakistani tank offensive is more desirable before Indian picks up a target like Hyderabad or RYK and goes for an armoured onslaught.

 

[rehaya]

Indian media...

Pop corns


.

 

[ali_raza]

you are right about the reference of kursk with jaisalmer. Western Russia and South-Western India are excellent tank territory for tank battles. However, this is also a weak spot for Pakistan if exploited by Indian tanks so a Pakistani tank offensive is more desirable before Indian picks up a target like Hyderabad or RYK and goes for an armoured onslaught.

thats what is the strength of advancing columns.and there greatest weakness.when u go head on there is alote of room u r leaving on sides.so the right and left flank can be activated as we wish.thats biggest nightmare situation for them.encirclement in middle of desert and preferably being destroyed much pf there striking divisions.

 

[Signalian]

i hope PA makes a new armoured division in Rahim yar Khan area. since RYK is around 50km from border so it makes it a perfect launching pad with least preparation for an armoured assault either south east towards Jaisalmer or north east towards Bikaner.

In contrast, PA 6th armoured Div and 1st Armoured Div are located 100's of km from border, 6th Armoured Division still at a smaller distance from border based at Gujranwala than 1st Armoured Div which is at Multan.

In contrast, the Indian armoured divisions are at quite a distance from the border which is why Cold start was a necessity as strike corps take time to reach border, except for 33rd Armoured division which is closest to border standing opposite PA 1st Armoured Division.

If PA raises a new XX Armour Div, it can easily change the scenario in Pakistan's favour as it can engage either IA 33rd Armoured Division or 31st Armoured Division or both.

If PA 6th Armoured Div engages IA 1st Armoured in the north, this gives leverage to PA 1st Armoured Division for an armoured thrust into India and even to 5 corps Armoured groups composed of atleast 2 independent armoured brigades without any serious threat from IA armour divisions.

Also, if this XX Armour Div thrusts into India, the indian cold start doctrine forces like armour and mechanised brigades of Holding Corps will be used to intercept it instead of thrusting into Pakistan at this most vulnerable location.
In any case, Pakistan made use of Nasr missile to stop an Indian thrust in this location rather than raising a new armoured division.

 

[ali_raza]

i hope PA makes a new armoured division in Rahim yar Khan area. since RYK is around 50km from border so it makes it a perfect launching pad with least preparation for an armoured assault either south east towards Jaisalmer or north east towards Bikaner.

In contrast, PA 6th armoured Div and 1st Armoured Div are located 100's of km from border, 6th Armoured Division still at a smaller distance from border based at Gujranwala than 1st Armoured Div which is at Multan.

In contrast, the Indian armoured divisions are at quite a distance from the border which is why Cold start was a necessity as strike corps take time to reach border, except for 33rd Armoured division which is closest to border standing opposite PA 1st Armoured Division.

View attachment 343096
If PA raises a new XX Armour Div, it can easily change the scenario in Pakistan's favour as it can engage either IA 33rd Armoured Division or 31st Armoured Division or both.

If PA 6th Armoured Div engages IA 1st Armoured in the north, this gives leverage to PA 1st Armoured Division for an armoured thrust into India and even to 5 corps Armoured groups composed of atleast 2 independent armoured brigades without any serious threat from IA armour divisions.

Also, if this XX Armour Div thrusts into India, the indian cold start doctrine forces like armour and mechanised brigades of Holding Corps will be used to intercept it instead of thrusting into Pakistan at this most vulnerable location.
In any case, Pakistan made use of Nasr missile to stop an Indian thrust in this location rather than raising a new armoured division.

raising a new armored division costs a huge fortune.but it will definitely check mate indian ambitions for times to come.but tgen again we also need atleast a brigade dedicated for kach area.to deny indian 31 division thrust on karachi

 

[Signalian]

raising a new armored division costs a huge fortune.but it will definitely check mate indian ambitions for times to come.but tgen again we also need atleast a brigade dedicated for kach area.to deny indian 31 division thrust on karachi

IA 31st Armoured Division will probably have a face off with PA ATGM forces of 16th Infantry Div based in Pano Aqil. The PA 5-Corps armoured brigades together constitute 4 armoured regiments.

The problem is that IA has RAPID divisions which have atleast a mechanised brigade of BMP-2 and they will be accompanied by independent armoured brigades as well which will be used in Cold start doctrine. These RAPID divisions are deployed closer to borders. They will be the first forces that PA will need to engage before the IA armoured divisions make appearance on battlefield.
IA is poised to advance roughly 120 MBT and 200 BMP-2 at 7-8 different locations each inside Pakistan.

IA 33rd Armoured Division is composed of 3 armoured regiments but have a large mechanised force having 6 battalions of BMP-2 which roughly makes 180 MBT and 300 BMP-2. Thats a massive amount of ATGM force to engage PA tanks.

 

[ali_raza]

IA 31st Armoured Division will probably have a face off with PA ATGM forces of 16th Infantry Div based in Pano Aqil. The PA 5-Corps armoured brigades together constitute 4 armoured regiments.

The problem is that IA has RAPID divisions which have atleast a mechanised brigade of BMP-2 and they will be accompanied by independent armoured brigades as well which will be used in Cold start doctrine. These RAPID divisions are deployed closer to borders. They will be the first forces that PA will need to engage before the IA armoured divisions make appearance on battlefield.
IA is poised to advance roughly 120 MBT and 200 BMP-2 at 7-8 different locations each inside Pakistan.

IA 33rd Armoured Division is composed of 3 armoured regiments but have a large mechanised force having 6 battalions of BMP-2 which roughly makes 180 MBT and 300 BMP-2. Thats a massive amount of ATGM force to engage PA tanks.

unr right.but what i m more interested in is.when u take ur forces out from 5 corp.towards jaisalmer.india will counter attack from gujrat towards karachi.then we would be forced to abandon our quest and turn back to defend karachi.
what i think is we should have a strong striking force consisting of ifvs.in around coastal aread of ran of kach.that coupled with RYK armored division.its will give india biggest blow possible

 

[Signalian]

unr right.but what i m more interested in is.when u take ur forces out from 5 corp.towards jaisalmer.india will counter attack from gujrat towards karachi.then we would be forced to abandon our quest and turn back to defend karachi.
what i think is we should have a strong striking force consisting of ifvs.in around coastal aread of ran of kach.that coupled with RYK armored division.its will give india biggest blow possible

I had a thought of Pakistan Marines beefed up with heavy weapons to defend the coastal area. Also, India will be more concerned to dislodge PA from its homeland instead of ignoring that and moving into sindh.

 

[Signalian]

raising a new armored division costs a huge fortune.but it will definitely check mate indian ambitions for times to come.but tgen again we also need atleast a brigade dedicated for kach area.to deny indian 31 division thrust on karachi

Raising a new Armour Division is not that pains taking.

The Army formation covering the area from Okara-Bahawalnagar-Bahawalpur-RYK axis is 31 Corps.

31 Corps has following Formations:

35th Infantry Division
26th mechanised Division
14th Infantry Division is also considered a part of this Corps instead of 2 Corps however some say its under 2 Corps.
13th Independent Armour Brigade
101st Independent Infantry Brigade

The new Armour Division can be built around 13th Independent Armour Brigade.
The second brigade can be the Independent Armoured Brigade based from Nowshera can be attached from 11 Corps Peshawar.
The third Brigade can consist of a Heavy anti-tank battalion and Light anti-tank battalion from Corps HQ Units and an infantry battalion converted to motorised from an infantry division commanding 4 Brigades.

Independent Armour brigades usually have own artillery and AD regiments or attached from Corps.
However, the Artillery and Air defence units can be squeezed from Artillery and Air Defence Divisions even if weapons are towed guns and tube launched.

XX Armour Division:
1st Brigade : 2 x Armour regiments, 1 X mechanised infantry battalion (ex-13th Armour Brigade)
2nd Brigade : 2 x Armour regiments, 1 X mechanised infantry battalion.(ex-Armour Brigade from 11 Corps)
3rd Brigade: 1 x HAT regiment, 1 x LAT regiment, 1 x Motorised Infantry Battalion
Artillery Brigade: 2 x SP Regiments, 1 x Towed
Air Defence Brigade: 2 x SP Regiments, 1 x Towed
Support Brigade: Elements of ex-armoured brigades and Corps HQ.

The HQ's like 11 Corps HQ etc which would have sent their units to make up thus formation could have new units raised over some period of time.

This will automatically relieve the pressure from 5 Corps for defence of the southern Pakistan from Indian Armour Divisions.

 

[ali_raza]

I had a thought of Pakistan Marines beefed up with heavy weapons to defend the coastal area. Also, India will be more concerned to dislodge PA from its homeland instead of ignoring that and moving into sindh.

thats what we expect but enemies always go for prime targets.what more prime then haidarabad or karachi.and ur thought abou RYK is genius i checked maps and all.it will change thr game.

 

[Signalian]

thats what we expect but enemies always go for prime targets.what more prime then haidarabad or karachi.and ur thought abou RYK is genius i checked maps and all.it will change thr game.

If looked closely at the suggestion i laid out, i can see some aspects which may need improvement.

1. The armoured brigade stationed in nowshera may not have AK or T-80 series MBT to begin with. Probably T-59 or T-69 and at best T-85 or AZ.
T-59 and T-69 are slower due to smaller engine power out, carry 105mm gun and have lesser armour protection than modern MBT of PA. so if the armoured units are armed with these tanks, their effectiveness for armoured manouvers in desert will be less than other MBT. The support and logistics units will need to provide ammunition for 105mm guns. The EME unit will also need to carry additional spares and other equipment for them.
T-85 or AZ will fare better in desert but compared to AZ and T-80, they still have smaller engine power outputs.

2. All the motorised units including motorised infantry, LAT, towed artillery will need wheeled vehicles. In non-road, desert conditions, the wheeled vehicle has lower speed average. so they may not keep up with tracked vehicles like APC and MBT. Wheeled vehicles will be carrying troops/cargo/ammo/towing guns which will further affect mobility.

Vehicles in desert need double the amount of spares and engine maintenance equipment. The filters will get clogged earlier than expected and will need replacements. This means a high and expensive standard of maintenance will be required to keep the wheeled vehicles going in desert.

PA uses a tracked logistics vehicle Qaswa based on M-113 but its numbers may be low in service.

3. The AD units will need a medium altitude SAM to counter IAF strike aircrafts. Anza is a low altitude SAM.

 

[ali_raza]

If looked closely at the suggestion i laid out, i can see some aspects which may need improvement.

1. The armoured brigade stationed in nowshera may not have AK or T-80 series MBT to begin with. Probably T-59 or T-69 and at best T-85 or AZ.
T-59 and T-69 are slower due to smaller engine power out, carry 105mm gun and have lesser armour protection than modern MBT of PA. so if the armoured units are armed with these tanks, their effectiveness for armoured manouvers in desert will be less than other MBT. The support and logistics units will need to provide ammunition for 105mm guns. The EME unit will also need to carry additional spares and other equipment for them.
T-85 or AZ will fare better in desert but compared to AZ and T-80, they still have smaller engine power outputs.

2. All the motorised units including motorised infantry, LAT, towed artillery will need wheeled vehicles. In non-road, desert conditions, the wheeled vehicle has lower speed average. so they may not keep up with tracked vehicles like APC and MBT. Wheeled vehicles will be carrying troops/cargo/ammo/towing guns which will further affect mobility.

Vehicles in desert need double the amount of spares and engine maintenance equipment. The filters will get clogged earlier than expected and will need replacements. This means a high and expensive standard of maintenance will be required to keep the wheeled vehicles going in desert.

PA uses a tracked logistics vehicle Qaswa based on M-113 but its numbers may be low in service.

3. The AD units will need a medium altitude SAM to counter IAF strike aircrafts. Anza is a low altitude SAM.

r u service member?