Pakistan army biggest hurdle in normalization India Pakistan relation

[newman]

Indians blame everybody except their own duplicity in Kashmir. With the amount of protests going on in Kashmir against Indian rule, the constant killing of innocents and claiming them as militants, the rapes, the arson - none of that is to be blamed, according to India.

So exactly what is Pakistan doing to rid the k place off India?

 

[indian navy]

welll there is so many power source

ISI
PAK ARMY
PAK LEADERS
TALIBAN
NON STATE ACTOR

god know what will happen

 

[Cow(ard)Boy]

Indians blame everybody except their own duplicity in Kashmir. With the amount of protests going on in Kashmir against Indian rule, the constant killing of innocents and claiming them as militants, the rapes, the arson - none of that is to be blamed, according to India.

Good to see you worried about India!


indiandefense :: Index

 

[somebozo]

Survival of Pak Army does not depend on hostility towards India this is the shallowest of ***** Indian media could ever create and propogate against PA.

It is PA which is serving on borders not PM and President sitting in airconditioned Islamabad. Every civilan cheif will consult their army for ground reality.

Issue of Kashmir is likely recocnized by State as well as PA. We all know the cosequences of Kashmir acceding to India.

India has physchologically never came to accecpt Paksitan existence because it it stuck on its idealogy of of hindutuva and akhand bharat therefore dont try to fool us with your false friendship.

The attitudes of Indian minister can only be attiributed to their culture of deception. From top indian politician to average indian citizen follow the same principle of deception and explioting trust.

The indian fears about Pakistan stem from its sevral centuries of invasion and conquest by central asians who happen to demolish a lot of their cultrual & religious land marks. Now hindu extremist are on the drive to reverse conquer for revenge.

ISI
PAK ARMY
PAK LEADERS
TALIBAN
NON STATE ACTOR

god know what will happen

This indian "phattu" fear about ISI might be the biggest claim to fame for ISI. History will read something like this.
Once upon a time a small neighbourly nation ruled by corrupt civilian government was able to keep India at bay by effective propoganda of its intelligence agencies.

 

[indian navy]

This indian "phattu" fear about ISI might be the biggest claim to fame for ISI. History will read something like this.
Once upon a time a small neighbourly nation ruled by corrupt civilian government was able to keep India at bay by effective propoganda of its intelligence agencies.

why your leaders are crying RAW role in Baluchistan

well pakistan biggest enemy is its army

any nation is ruled by peoples not army

 

[newman]

Survival of Pak Army does not depend on hostility towards India this is the shallowest of ***** Indian media could ever create and propogate against PA.

It is PA which is serving on borders not PM and President sitting in airconditioned Islamabad. Every civilan cheif will consult their army for ground reality.

Issue of Kashmir is likely recocnized by State as well as PA. We all know the cosequences of Kashmir acceding to India.

India has physchologically never came to accecpt Paksitan existence because it it stuck on its idealogy of of hindutuva and akhand bharat therefore dont try to fool us with your false friendship.

The attitudes of Indian minister can only be attiributed to their culture of deception. From top indian politician to average indian citizen follow the same principle of deception and explioting trust.

The indian fears about Pakistan stem from its sevral centuries of invasion and conquest by central asians who happen to demolish a lot of their cultrual & religious land marks. Now hindu extremist are on the drive to reverse conquer for revenge.


This indian "phattu" fear about ISI might be the biggest claim to fame for ISI. History will read something like this.
Once upon a time a small neighbourly nation ruled by corrupt civilian government was able to keep India at bay by effective propoganda of its intelligence agencies.

Dear troller, your argument is flawed on many counts and can be disintegrated along many planes. But then I see no benefit to wasting time over somebozo..

 

[SurvivoR]

First of all this piece of Farticle (yep its not a typo) is a perfect case study of pure BS.

This farticle portrays the ingrained insecurities and jealousy of india against the barrier (the Pak Armed Forces, bulk of which is the Army) thats keeping Pakistan safe and together against any internal or external threats. They have tried a million times before as well to wedge a divide between the Army and the nation, tch tch tch... However at this point the Army has the Pakistani nation firmly behind it, more so than ever. So, no matter how much these baboons jump up and down and cry Pak Army is the boogie man it won't matter as the nation knows what it needs to know already. However what can matter is that Strepsils company can get some profits by your sore throats.

Anyway, keep on trying, like you have tried from the start. The result shall be the same.

Wake up you dim wits and clean your own house first of RSS, BJP and all the terrorist Hindu organizations that have infiltrated your key positions of power. Charity begins at home. After all you can't blame the attack on Babri Masjid, and the subsequent riots, the Gujrat massacre/genocide, the Samjhota Express massacre (in which you killed Pakistanis)... on Pak Army, can you?

 

[mehru]

China ignores US noise over N-reactors for Pakistan


Rajeev Srinivasan on how apportioning blame for the failure of the talks misses the big picture on the ground -- the Great Game is afoot
I am always amused at the great expectations that some Indians harbor about India-Pakistan palavers, contrary to sense and prior experience. I suspect nothing will ever come of any Indo-Pak talks, because the dominant Pakistani ethos, indeed the very raison d'etre of that State's existence, is based on being not-India and anti-India.

In particular, Pakistan is a State owned by an army, and the army would have no reason to exist if peace were, by some miracle, to break out with India. Survival instinct alone, therefore, suggests that the Pakistani army could not possibly afford peace. After all, the continuous state of covert war sustains a very comfortable living for the generals -- a story in the New York Times on July 19 talked about how parts of Islamabad look like a tidy, affluent Los Angeles suburb.

However, I am overwhelmed by d j vu, because I could repeat verbatim what I wrote in June 2001, in a column titled 'Because it's their nature, their custom: Why the Indo-Pak summit is doomed', about the much-ballyhooed 2001 talks with General Musharraf. I offered several analogies, including one with two sets of Polynesian islanders with widely differing visions of what 'peace' might be -- absolutely appropriate in the India-Pakistan context.

I concluded with the following, and in hindsight I was wrong in assuming that India could drive Pakistan to bankruptcy with an arms race, much as the Americans had done to the Soviets:

It is clear that Pakistan -- or, to be precise, their ruling military establishment -- wants, or needs, war. We can oblige: India can continue to bear the cost of war better than a much smaller, economically stagnant Pakistan which is liable to collapse under its own internal contradictions and runaway religious terrorism.

Of course, this was before 9/11, and I did not anticipate then that the Pakistanis would get the Americans (and the Chinese) to underwrite their war against India, and that the Indian government would be so unwilling to or incapable of deterring Pakistan by imposing costs on misadventures. Instead, Pakistan is convinced that India does not have the guts to stand up to them.

Pakistanis are justified in believing this: for all practical purposes, the Mumbai attack in 2008, 26/11, has been forgotten, and this so-called 'peace process' is proceeding from the Indian side as though the humiliation of that frontal attack on India's financial nerve-center never happened. The small matter of 180 Indians being massacred, and India's inept response to the crisis, both broadcast live around the globe, are forgotten.

Indeed, the name of the game today in India is finger-pointing: mandarins are running around trying to find a scapegoat to blame for the 'failure' of the talks. They have found a good candidate in Home Secretary G K Pillai, who is now the fall guy for having dared to mention some unmentionables.

A news item suggests that the prime minister is unhappy with Pillai for having aired David Coleman Headley's confessions about the involvement of the Inter Services Intelligence and the Lashkar e Tayiba in the Mumbai invasion. It seems the prime minister would have preferred it if this minor detail were swept under the carpet! What were the talks about, if they were to ignore the Pakistani establishment's culpability in cross-border terrorism?


Where do the 'concessions' end? Wasn't it enough that the Government of India quietly handed over 25 Pakistani terrorists -- with no reciprocity -- as a 'goodwill gesture' to apparently smooth the way for the talks? And why didn't the ever-vigilant English Language Media utter a word about this rather strange, and servile, way of engaging a foe?
There is also a basic flaw about the coverage of the talks -- the issue is not whether the talks were successful. The issue is whether there is any progress made in the larger issue of protecting India's national interests. Once again, we are losing the forest for the trees -- the talks are tactical, the pursuit of national interests is strategic.

Several distinct but related events have shown that India's alleged Pakistan policy is either non-existent or self-defeating. First, there is the all-but-complete transfer of two 635-megawatt Chinese nuclear reactors to Pakistan, which will allow the latter to build 24 more nuclear bombs every year in addition to their existing stockpile of 70-90, already bigger than India's.

Second, recent violence in Jammu and Kashmir is a direct result of the decision by the GoI to withdraw 30,000 troops a few months ago. Third, the apparent willingness by Afghan President Karzai to cooperate with the intensely anti-India Haqqani network implies the total failure of India's efforts to be a stakeholder in that nation.

China has simply ignored the pro-forma noises that the US made at the Nuclear Suppliers' Group regarding likely weapons proliferation because of the new reactors being transferred to Pakistan. Selig Harrison, writing in the Boston Globe, pointed out how proliferation is part of Pakistani national policy. Despite this, and despite all the GoI's exertions to ram the so-called 'nuclear deal' down India's throat, America has no qualms about the Pakistani stockpile.

Thus the dubious nuclear deal has had the effect of strengthening Pakistan's hand, while constraining India's own puny efforts at building a deterrent against China, almost exactly as opponents of the deal said, while the GoI proceeded with it in a haze of lies and subterfuge.


It appears the sudden upsurge of violence in Jammu and Kashmir is almost certainly a calibrated and calculated ratcheting up of tension by the ISI. Intercepted phone calls suggest that the ISI and pals like the LeT are paying 'rage-boys' to indulge in stone-throwing and other violence, expecting to induce over-reaction by the stressed-out paramilitary troops and police. This, then, can lead to manufactured 'martyrs'.
The ISI has reason to believe it is on a winning track. Successive statements by the prime minister in Havana, Sharm-al-Sheikh and Thimphu have all implied that, succumbing to American pressure, India is willing to cede Kashmir to Pakistan, the only issue being how to market such a climb-down to the Indian public.

The coded talk of 'creative solutions' and 'trust deficit' have been interpreted by them as a 'deficit of will', and the likelihood that they can make J&K simply too expensive for India to hang on to. The proximate cause is the withdrawal of 30,000 troops. To the ISI, this spells "we have the Indians on the run". So why, they ask reasonably, should they negotiate, when they are winning?

Intriguingly, this is almost exactly the same feeling that the ISI has about the Obama administration after its disastrous declaration of a timetable for withdrawal from Afghanistan. They, and their proxy the Taliban, feel that all they have to do is to wait things out -- the Americans have no will to fight, or stay on. Apparently President Karzai implicitly believes this -- witness his alleged overtures to the Taliban and the Haqqani Network.

Karzai, Taliban and Haqqanis are all Pashtuns. Pashtuns account for only about 40 per cent of the Afghan population, along with large groups of Tajiks, Uzbeks, and Hazaras. India has traditionally had good relationships with the Pashtuns but even better ties to the Tajiks, who, under the charismatic military genius Ahmed Shah Massoud of the Northern Alliance, held off the Soviets and then the Taliban.

Now all the blood and treasure -- hundreds of millions of dollars -- that India has poured into reconstruction efforts in Afghanistan seem to be in jeopardy because Pakistanis have convinced Americans and others that India has no business whatsoever in Afghanistan. India was excluded from previous talks about that nation, and now seems to be grudgingly included.

The irony is that the Pashtun issue is one of Pakistan's key weaknesses -- the Durand Line arbitrarily divides Pashtun territory into Afghanistan and Pakistan. Pashtuns themselves have never recognised it, and given a chance, would create an independent Pashtunistan on both sides of the line. Pashtun parts of Afghanistan, and the erstwhile North-West Frontier Province and parts of the Federally Administered Tribal Areas of Pakistan would be its component parts.

This, of course, would be a disaster for Pakistan, as it would induce restive and oppressed Baluchis and Sindhis to secede as well, leaving just a rump Pakistani Punjab, which would be too small to cause much damage to anybody but itself.


In fact, some analysts suggest just such a balkanisation to solve the Pakistan problem. (There are clearly potential problems for India, too -- perhaps there will be pressure to create a separate Kashmiri State; similarly Iran may end up losing its Baluch province of Sistan/Baluchistan to an independent Baloch State).
Somehow, the enterprising ISI has turned this weakness into a strength, by hijacking the Pashtun elements into their proxy Taliban. Similarly, the ISI, which faced the wrath of America after 9/11 with its peremptory warning to President Musharraf to behave or else, has turned it into a $25 billion bonanza. Ironically, the Americans are in effect subsidising the Pakistani purchase of Chinese reactors!

Instead of containing Pakistan with a pincer movement with one front in Afghanistan, India is now in the unenviable position of confronting the ISI's 'strategic depth', which it has always craved. Uncertain about its goals and ever-eager to appease, India has allowed a failing State one-seventh its size to checkmate it. Lack of strategic intent has led to dismal failure yet again.

There is only one small silver lining in this cloud, and it is based purely on geography and demography. That silver lining is that the ISI may have been too clever for its own good, and that its 'victory' in Afghanistan may well be Pyrrhic, if it results in the unravelling of the country. There are those in India who say that a 'stable, prosperous' Pakistan is in India's best interests. Hardly. On the contrary, a weak, balkanised Pakistan is.

Pakistan has made a career out of running with the hares and hunting with the hounds. It was obvious as long ago as the siege of Kunduz in 2001 and the ensuing 'Airlift of Evil' that the so-called Taliban officers are serving or retired Pakistani Army and ISI brigadiers and colonels wearing baggy pants and beards and turbans. The ISI has had a great run with the fiction that the Taliban is distinct from itself.

With luck, this may be coming to an end. Former US Ambassador to India Robert Blackwill endorsed a formulation of a de-facto partition of Afghanistan, with the northern portion (including Kabul) to be under an American-NATO umbrella, and the southern, Pashtun, portion, to be left to the tender mercies of the Taliban/ISI. This is surely a trial balloon from the US Administration.

In effect, this would mean the old Northern Alliance would be re-constituted, with the US/NATO supporting it and keeping the Taliban at bay, as it was before 9/11, the only difference being that 10 years have passed and $300 billion has been spent, a fair bit of which has spirited away by the ISI and friends. And Massoud has been assassinated.

If this is the final end game in Afghanistan, India had better be prepared to play an active role. Otherwise, in the new Great Game being played on the fringes of Indian territory, it will end up just a spectator. India should be looking to parlay its long tradition of relations with Afghanistan to establish strong commercial linkages, especially now that it turns out the country is chock-full of minerals.

The Indo-Pakistan 'peace process' is merely a ritualistic sideshow, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. The real strategic imperative is a plan for India in a post-Pakistan scenario, especially to prevent China and America from dividing up the @fpak region into their spheres of influence. With some luck, Pakistan may yet implode without any help from India. India should look beyond its obsession with Pakistanis strutting about, and pursue its national interests.

A Rediff India article.
Moving beyond the Indo-Pak 'peace talks', as the Afghan end game nears: Rediff.com News

This is not very interesting. Comments on Rediff article are much more amusing than the article. They are a real treat.
Take a look

As a true Gandhian Secular...........
by Gandhian Secular on Jul 22, 2010 09:58 AM | Hide replies

...we want to blame Mr Krishna, Ms Nirupama.

Always remember Pakistan is our younger brother.

So it has full right to demand anything from his elder brother.

And it is duty of Elder brother to fulfill the demands of younger bro.

It is clearcut scenario that Mr Krishna & its secular team lost its purpose of knotting secular tie with our younger counter part.

Honourable Mahatmaji give us strength, to fulfill the secular wishes of our innocent peaceful secular younger brother Pakistan

We remember you give Rs 550Crores to it in 1947 now its high time that in 2010 we must give Rs 550000 Crores to Pak, as a secular gesture of Goodwill

JAY HO

Tit for tat is the solution
by hameet bhullar on Jul 22, 2010 04:11 AM | Hide replies

Indian should grow up and do the same what ISI is doing to India/Kashmir. Weaken the Pakistan by making ISI always run. There is no war needed but India should also pay RAW or the poor Pakistanis to create terror for ISI/Army. India should keep Pakistan busy with bomb blasts or riots. This is what they are doing to India.

NonSense
by sun vin on Jul 22, 2010 03:51 AM | Hide replies

This is all crap man, who cares about the country. All we educated, English speaking seculars(stupid a.szz holes) care about is whether we are trying hard to prove that we are the most tolerant(???) so that we can get chaprassi naukri around the world.

Did you know?
by prem k on Jul 21, 2010 09:47 PM | Hide replies

While Italians can rule India, Hinduism is not a recognised religion in Italy! Even though the country has a large number of Hindu immigrants, they are not allowed to hold public religious ceremonies! Italian embassy in India (infact so does Swiss embassy) as a policy does not hire any Hindu even as a peon. Well! why is it that Italy shouts the most in EU against "India�s persecution of Christians" much less the same way as Pakistan shouts about muslims persecuted in India? India should take it up strongly with EU and should cut off all diplomatic relations with Italy unless they agree for quid-pro-quo.

Re: India Was ruled mostly by always foreign invaders
by Jaganath Bharat on Jul 21, 2010 07:01 PM
India never enforced equal rights of the people, but are protecting monkey and cow rights to congest our life-dependent traffic. So our people turn on each other, and outsiders can have a party at our (India and Greater India's) expense.

Re: No need to worry
by Supersecualirist on Jul 21, 2010 06:13 PM
We may have one of the biggest armies in the world, but when the Defence Forces' role is totally ignored by certain anti-national politicians in India and these politicians are voted power, then this bigness ie meaningless. Though better than the failed State of Pakistan, the so called 'booming economy' is a media creation only. Again it is a media creation that our IT industry is superior. Assessing one's resources and power without bias is one thing; but dreaming about our non-existent strength is annother.

Re: No need to worry
by murarilal on Jul 22, 2010 09:06 AM
we ahve most corrupt elected lots from panch to ministers, NO ACTION, we have most corrupt state & central govt employees NO ACTION,we have millions of terrorists & anti-indians NO ACTION, we have businessmen & industrialists to change govt policies to their advantages NO ACTION, we have 40% poor people with a steady burden on poor resources of india yet no population control, we have 70 lakh crores of black money in && outside india yet no action to unearth it, we follow vote bank based policy just to stick to power let INDIA go to hell, we have ministers who are illiterates & poor knowledge of ministries they are heading NO ACTION, we never have guts to punish them who kick us.

HA HA HA ALL IS UNWELL.


By the way, which one is your comment?

 

[AbuSalam]

well if u all look at the state of affairs of Pakistan today & comparing with BD etc don't u feel that a change of guard is necessary ?

 

[mehru]

NEW DELHI - The Pakistan Army will never accept peace with India as its very existence depends on hostility towards New Delhi, former National Security Adviser Brajesh Mishra said here.


“This talk has also failed. And it would continue to fail, as in the past, as we have not yet grasped the reality that (the) Pakistan Army will never allow peaceful relations with India,” Mishra said Tuesday night.

He was addressing a conference on “Countering Terrorism in South Asia”.

Mishra was referring to the July 15 talks between the foreign ministers of India and Pakistan in Islamabad that ended in discord.

“Pakistan Army’s hostility towards India is not because of Bangladesh, Kashmir or Siachen. Their very existence depends upon hostility towards India. Unless we grasp that, we would never able to deal with Pakistan,” he said.

“Pakistan Army will never allow peaceful relations with India,” he said at the conference organised by the Observer Research Foundation.

“Pakistan, which has been dependent on the US and Western countries for its survival, has cheated them. If we think we can have friendship and cooperation with Pakistan as long as the armed forces are the rulers there, I think, we are living in a fool’s paradise.

“How long are we going to say that Pakistan is also a victim of terrorism and therefore we are going to work together, when terrorist activities are directed against you?” he asked.

Mishra, a former aide to then prime minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee, highlighted the “unmitigated hostility of Pakistan and China” as the main challenges to India’s national security.

“If Taliban succeeds in going back to Kabul, as happened in (19)96, we are going to have a tremendous problem of fundamentalism and extremism in South Asia, Central Asia and other parts of the world,” he said.

“In such a situation, terrorism is going to increase as the situation in Afghanistan returns to what was in mid 90s. Then, what is the answer?,” he asked.Pakistan Army not for peace with India: Brajesh Mishra

The writer didn't even conclude the article properly. So what's the point of posting such an article?

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

Oh please basically this article is saying that that the Pakistan army is the devil who wants death and destruction while indians are innocent people and all they want is peace.

We Indians are no saints,but we ain't so overt about it.

Admit it,as a Pakistani you do believe if your military is under firm civilian control,your nation as well as your neighbors will benefit from it.

 

[harpoon]

I read somewhere that Pakistan Military is the biggest, richest corporation in Pakistan and its chief the most powerful CEO of that country. Pakistani Military operates everything from banks to cement factories to sugar mills raking in millions of dollars in revenue. I dont
know that whether the revenue is shared with the Pakistan govt but it is beyond doubt that Pakistan military is a significant political and economic player in that country. So if someone believes that
the Pakistan Military will give this all up and go to barracks and be a model military that obeys the orders of the civilian govt is living in a fools paradise. And to stay in this position and justify their interference in the country they need a reason and reason is obviously India and Pakistani Military has successfully used this hostility towards India to their own advantage to have an upperhand when it comes to national policies.

 

[Spring Onion]

Both Indian and Pakistani people want to live in peace and prosperity but Pakistan army and ISI is biggest Hurdle.

The biggest hurdle between peaceful relations of the two countries is the occupation of Kashmir by Indian terrorist army.

The biggest hurdle are the Indian extremist politicians from Indian fundamentalist parties.


Just take up the recent talks, your FM was being pressurised by these hawks from Delhi and giving inappropriate statements while the talks were still in progress.


Anyway its the Indians who do not want peace and try everything to sabotage the talks

 

[Spring Onion]

well if u all look at the state of affairs of Pakistan today & comparing with BD etc don't u feel that a change of guard is necessary ?

Change of Indian.bharti mentality is necessary. its not 71 where Indian cross border terrorism will succeed.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

Change of Indian.bharti mentality is necessary. its not 71 where Indian cross border terrorism will succeed.

What are you going to counter these videos with ?Zaid Hamid's Ghaza-e-Hind dreams?

@ontopic
The article and the title are misleading and narrow-minded.
It is true that under the military Musharraf regime we got kargil when we went for talks,but also under Musharraf regime substantial progress was made on Kashmir through back channel talks.

So to properly put it,Kashmir is the hurdle and will continue to remain one until the people of Kashmir grow mature enough to trust their respective Govts on the decision that is to be taken,which i don't see happening so very soon.Until that time Pakistan and India can concentrate on improving the standaards of their respective populations.