Pakistan Army Aviation Corps - Updated

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Again this would go down to wire , see how our Military wants to move forward the prospect of Transfer of technology is beneficial , obviously a bit older but as you stated may be the chopper will go thru upgrade lets see

I personally feel the T-129 (Lighter agile ) and Z-10 (Tad bit Heavier Class) covers the need for Pakistan Military Aviation

Together with Puma Serial Production for Transportation from Romania or Italian Choppers

The South African offering is a wild horse in all this nice chopper would still be better option then our existing Cobra fleet (Outside shot)

• Only way I imagine it would get selected or consideration is due to its missile tech and Transfer of technology offering and modernization goals

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Again this would go down to wire , see how our Military wants to move forward the prospect of Transfer of technology is beneficial , obviously a bit older but as you stated may be the chopper will go thru upgrade lets see

I personally feel the T-129 (Lighter class) and Z-10 (Heavier Class) covers the need for Pakistan Military Aviation
Together with Puma Serial Production for Transportation

The South African offering is a wild horse in all this

The T-129 and Z-10 are practically identical in their weight and physical capabilities. The PAA would only need one and each has its distinct advantages; the T-129 is well suited for high-altitude operations (i.e. Northern Areas) and the Z-10 is from China, which assures supply. The Rooivalk's size is in the league of the Mi-28NE and Apache.

No point in pursing the Super Puma on its own when the PAA has Mi-171s. The Super Puma would make the most sense if the Rooivalk is also procured - common engines and dynamic components. Otherwise, stick to the Mi-171.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well I would like Military to target ready products , so we can start adding to our fleet vs , future to be state crafts or Helicopter as we can't just wait forever for addressing the aviation corps needs or Navy Fleet needs

You raised a great point perhaps some similarities in Engine support and parts support etc great point

Lets see how things proceed , as stated before any platform at this stage that offers a serial production is an improvement over our existing Cobra fleet

However I would be suprised if T-129 does not comes or we don't increase Z-10 fleet numbers


Present Situation

Super Cobras : Not sufficient quantity to make any major impact due to low numbers and price, good platform just not sufficient quantity for needs for national defence
Z-10 : Proper Chopper but need more numbers
T-129 : Completed platform , trials and reviews
Cobra Fleet: Older then Suzuki Mehran
Italian Choppers (Transport) : Ok platform but limited numbers
Mi-19 : Ok platform but we lack Service factory
Mi-35 : Been waiting for 1 years for arrival
Bell (Transport): Good as they were in 1970

So general theme really is need a bit more streamlined company in Pakistan / Factory to standardized all the Helicopter unit service and purchase

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Well I would like Military to target ready products , so we can start adding to our fleet vs , future to be state crafts and helicopters as it may take 4-5 years for arrival of such promised platforms

The Rooivalk Mk2 isn't an abstract program. It is essentially just the Rooivalk with upgraded electronics and new weapons integration (e.g. Mokopa ATGM). It wouldn't take 4-5 years, but 1-2 years to see it enter testing. Besides, why would the Army be in a rush when it is going to busy inducting and integrating the AH-1Z?

The Rooivalk Mk2 isn't ready for sale, but then again, it is being offered with ToT. There's a trade-off in that you could wait a bit and get a Mi-28NE-grade helicopter with mature and commonly available engines, modern sub-systems, and commonality with an affordable transport helicopter.

IMO a neat mix would be some T-129s for scout and high-altitude operations, and then a larger number of Rooivalk Mk2 using the same sensor pod, avionics, countermeasures and weapons as the T-129.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

It would be really difficult to overlook this latest tech item in present evaluations
Its like we cold be riding a stallion, and have safety , vs walking on bare feet for 2-4 years only for a "Promissed" good to arrive to us in the 5th year....

Not smart to keep investing in assets that will take 5-7 years to materialize

I don't even count the Super Cobra as anything special in our Military arsenal just something to show off in parade not practical for strategic usage from a Military prespective what is 3-5 units going to do for our Military "Zilch"

Similarly the Chinese offering would be easier to service , get a small local workship setup etc and ensure we have quantity based on our requirement

Its rediculous to wait for 2-5 years for 3 Choppers

 

[fatman17]

Well it's coming under foreign sale assistance, and we are not paying a lot towards the payment. So, not a bad idea. Secondly American got best technology nd by getting ur hands on them, lessons can be integrated in projects with China. So, I guess getting these make sense. 1 billion is total cost of Helios, 1000 hell fire, spares, training nd technical support. Yes they are not reliable but still we will get good technology. South African Helios can't be compare.

Wrong. Pakistan buying super cobras and hellfires with 100% Pakistan resources.

 

[Cool_Soldier]

Mi 35 is schedule to be deliver in 2017
A1 Z1 is also schedule for delivery in 2017
T-129 deal is also expected in July 2017

I hope, 2017 would be wonderful for PAA.

 

[mikaal hassan]

right now the army has got too many different types of helicopters for doing a similar job ....may be a senior member would like to open a separate thread for gunship and transport helicopters to have a proper discussion.

The Rooivalk Mk2 isn't an abstract program. It is essentially just the Rooivalk with upgraded electronics and new weapons integration (e.g. Mokopa ATGM). It wouldn't take 4-5 years, but 1-2 years to see it enter testing. Besides, why would the Army be in a rush when it is going to busy inducting and integrating the AH-1Z?

The Rooivalk Mk2 isn't ready for sale, but then again, it is being offered with ToT. There's a trade-off in that you could wait a bit and get a Mi-28NE-grade helicopter with mature and commonly available engines, modern sub-systems, and commonality with an affordable transport helicopter.

IMO a neat mix would be some T-129s for scout and high-altitude operations, and then a larger number of Rooivalk Mk2 using the same sensor pod, avionics, countermeasures and weapons as the T-129.

i think if the army can be a bit patience and use some brain for a change .. they might be able to get a better helicopter in the form of rooivalk instead of buying T-129 or z-10 and then running around looking for a heavy helicopter to compete against indian Apache ...sir in your opinion do we really need a light gunship helicopter ?

 

[JK!]

South Africa did a really badass upgrade of Alegerias Hind gunships a few years back. Believe the firm was ATE Aerospace but not able to find any further info at the moment.

Reference above: ATE Aerospace were acquired by Paramount Group. The above is marketed on their website as the Night Hawk.

Also a pretty sweet Mi17 upgrade.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Our problem , not that helicopters exist in world. Or that companies are droing great mods and upgrades on these Choppers.

Our issue is not ordering sufficient quantity due time and not negotiating a timely fast release of products

Look at MI-35 pending order for long time
Look at Super Cobra pending order from god knows were I head about it in 2009 after 2014 we will get SuperCobra

Turkey for example due to serial production ramped up 20+ T-129 enough for their needs in few years

China Z-10 100+ Units Since 2012

Mean while we are still waiting for 2-3 Chopper delivery since 2009

 

[mikaal hassan]

i agree with you on that when you look at numbers of helicopters in all categories its too much fish market style purchasing going on clear example is MI 35 , why just buy 4
GOING back to super Cobra there might be a case of similar to F16 someone gott a big bribe to buy them

any one got actual updated number of transport helicopters we got from different manufacturers up till now ...

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Present Core is 1970 Cobra fleet 40-50 units, plus standard 1970 Bell Transport
General consensus is retirement of these units as part of modernization effort

Replacement fleet

• 3 Z-10 (Trial run with force, Parade presence)
• ??? T-129 (Seems potentially a done deal )

Only reasonable addition planned for future (Duct tape solution)

• 2-3 Mi-35 (Expected arrival 2017 )
• 3 Super Cobras (Expected arrival 2017 ) (8 to be deivered later years)

 

[Muhammad Omar]

Is there any Chance that PAA is looking to Expand the Fleet

Like

15-20 Zulu
40 TAI T-129
40 WZ-10

 

[JK!]

Is there any Chance that PAA is looking to Expand the Fleet

Like

15-20 Zulu
40 TAI T-129
40 WZ-10

@fatman17 has stated the overall requirement to be around 60 choppers in 3 Squadrons. The commitment is to more Zulus so it would look like either T129 or WZ10 complementing them.

The T129 could offer scope for common Western systems and WZ10 offers stability of supply and diversification.

For myself Rooivalk is wishful thinking as it's potentially a great system and nearly won the Turkish bid until Eurocopter made supply of parts an issue.

 

[bananarepublic]

I believe that pakistan should go for roovalik it is an excellent platform and is bang for a buck it also out performs Apache in many field such as range plus we can get Full TOT i also think that if we select roovalik we can integrate our own avionics such as from t-129 from turkey or any other power plant options could be China or russian and if we do we can get an overhauling plant for our mi-8 transport helo @Bilal Khan (Quwa) can you tell me if it is possible t integrate different avionics and poweplant
if not we have the prospect of manufacturing the super puma and excellent choice
the Roovalik is an excellent platform needing having low maintenance being cheaper while also out performing the apahe it is an excellent contender for desert and plain areas while we can use the AH-1z for high altitudes.
Just think about it we need a platform to counter india`s armored column which should be a heavy weight platform and should have the prospects of self reliance which fits Roovalik.
while there are t-129 and wz-10 i believe their capabilities are more towards high altitudes and agility which contradicts the accusation of ah-1z.