Pakistan Army Aviation Corps - Updated

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Man that's disappointing, so no relief in sight for FC and Troops on Western border
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Especially since Afghanistan is going to burn hot after Americans leave. Terrorists have already got their hands on bleeding edge equipment and we are yet to develop network centric capabilities, nor do we have the ability to conduct long-term surveillance in the vastness of Balochistan.
If something like HAPS could make it into PAA, that'd greatly boost its ISTAR capabilities.

I'll say this ... thought the fuel costs are much more, the JF-17 is relatively affordable to fly. The PAF can -- and likely will -- start employing the Thunder in the CT/COIN role. They have the ASELPOD and LGBs, though they might benefit from a laser-guided AGM too (e.g., YJ-9E). So, if the higher-ups need air power, they'll get it, and it won't break the PAF's bank. The real question is: are they escalating this issue fast enough?

 

[SQ8]

The PAF did look at the Hurkus-C, but ultimately, the cost of maintaining so few specialized aircraft wasn't worth it. However, an AMX-type aircraft could at least support a conventional warfare role too (e.g., deploy SOWs, support anti-armour operations, provide cover to the Army, etc).

I think one aspect that gets lost is the gap Pressler caused to the PAF. Pre-1990, the PAF was thinking of only two things: 'multi-role fighter' (F-16) and 'attack' (Mirage III/5 and A-5). In my opinion, the ultimate vision was to build the F-16 fleet to 150-180 by 2005-ish (pre-Pressler). This was the approach every big F-16 operator -- i.e., Turkey, Egypt, Greece, Netherlands, Taiwan, etc -- was taking, it wasn't different for us except we would've taken longer to get to that point.

With the F-16s settling the multi-role fighter issue in spades, the PAF would've had the luxury to tinker with niche aircraft for the attack role. You wouldn't have to worry about your most vital needs as the F-16 would've covered 90% of them. This is where something like the AMX would've fit really well, or even the Tornado or JH-7A @SQ8

I think there was high fixation with multirole aircraft capable of dominating an air fight from the east. As far as getting a CAS type, the focus was to throw in the least amount of effort for what the threat was - so in the 90’s it was known the Indians were struggling with battlefield AD so a simple avionics day bomber like the Mirage or the A-5 with a nightlight for night support would work as well.

As far as today is concerned, the effectiveness of the Karabakh conflict has garnered attention everywhere. If you can keep air superiority over an area then 50 drones costing a $2 million each and armed with 6 ATGMs can go past and devastate entire battlegroups and frustrate an enemy to no end. Sa17 replicas, Pantsirs or other LoMAD is pretty helpless in trying to get all these buzzing flies off it. Finally, even if they all get shot down you’ve barely lost a Rafale in costs while probably causing more damage and over a much wider area in return.

 

[araz]

I think there was high fixation with multirole aircraft capable of dominating an air fight from the east. As far as getting a CAS type, the focus was to throw in the least amount of effort for what the threat was - so in the 90’s it was known the Indians were struggling with battlefield AD so a simple avionics day bomber like the Mirage or the A-5 with a nightlight for night support would work as well.

As far as today is concerned, the effectiveness of the Karabakh conflict has garnered attention everywhere. If you can keep air superiority over an area then 50 drones costing a $2 million each and armed with 6 ATGMs can go past and devastate entire battlegroups and frustrate an enemy to no end. Sa17 replicas, Pantsirs or other LoMAD is pretty helpless in trying to get all these buzzing flies off it. Finally, even if they all get shot down you’ve barely lost a Rafale in costs while probably causing more damage and over a much wider area in return.

Provided the unmanned UCAVs canbe maneouverd into and out of a dense field blocking signal transmission unmanned missions will always be more cheaper than manned ones. I suspect the recent drive of PAF towards drones is a testment to that. The mirages were only being used as we had very little in the eay of alternates and I suspect PAF still feels we have a need for such a platform as they are looking to retain at least some M3/5s till the 2025-30 window.
Regards
A

 

[Raja Porus]

Provided the unmanned UCAVs canbe maneouverd into and out of a dense field blocking signal transmission

Yes sir, that is the most serious threat to UCAVs, more serious than any physical or kinetic AD. EMP, RF jamming and spoofing may prevent the use of UCAVs in a contested environment until any countermeasure is developed. In this case manned aircrafts may seem to be better but as shown on 27Feb, if the comms between the ground control and a human pilot is jammed then that aircraft is also as good as dead. The pilot may be able to bring back the aircraft but the same can be done by the UAV if we programme it to RTB when it can't establish a link with its pilot on the ground.

 

[Signalian]

Yes sir, that is the most serious threat to UCAVs, more serious than any physical or kinetic AD. EMP, RF jamming and spoofing may prevent the use of UCAVs in a contested environment until any countermeasure is developed. In this case manned aircrafts may seem to be better but as shown on 27Feb, if the comms between the ground control and a human pilot is jammed then that aircraft is also as good as dead. The pilot may be able to bring back the aircraft but the same can be done by the UAV if we programme it to RTB when it can't establish a link with its pilot on the ground.

Data links are designed to have secure and redundant communication processes for data transmission.

 

[Moon]

The PAF can -- and likely will -- start employing the Thunder in the CT/COIN role

How many sorties can PAF do with the Thunder in a month? Without breaking bank? I'm talking complete ground support, for a 5-6 hour engagement? My idea is that the troops have immediate air support, a plane always flying above them, waiting for a call, or preemptively striking militant caves and whatnot, I'm talking thousands of flight hours, PAF would go bankrupt trying to pull something like this without turboprops.

Karabakh conflict

Karabakh was a target rich region, lots of troop movement, lots of tanks, lots of targets. Bln is exactly the opposite. You have to wait for Ts to pop up, before you can whack them.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

The fight between Azerbaijan and Armenia should be viewed in perspective. Armenia did not have an air force to contest air dominance of Azeri forces.

UCAV's/MALE's etc. and similar stuff is useful when one has complete air dominance of the Battlefield.

 

[Scorpiooo]

My idea is that the troops have immediate air support, a plane always flying above them, waiting for a call, or preemptively striking militant caves and whatnot, I'm talking thousands of flight hours, PAF would go bankrupt trying to pull something like this without turboprops.
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PAF/PAA can adopt something similar to Air Tractor AT-802, for such use, if saving flyaway cost is the issue

 

[GriffinsRule]

I had created a thread back in 2018 about the usefulness of something like the Calidus B-250. It offers greater range, endurance and weapon load then the Tucano, Hurkus and similar turboprops.

Potential turbo-prop for PAF - Calidus B-250

I have been a strong proponent of the idea that PA and PAF could have effectively used a Embraer Tucano type of an aircraft to provide CAS, precision night attack capability, and recon/intel gathering missions. While one could argue that the Tucano had too many Israeli origin equipment (not that...

defence.pk

Calidus B-250 - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

However, most members were against the idea or thought UACs and Mushshaks could do a better job. The results however are in front of everyone.

 

[Sifar zero]

How many sorties can PAF do with the Thunder in a month? Without breaking bank? I'm talking complete ground support, for a 5-6 hour engagement? My idea is that the troops have immediate air support, a plane always flying above them, waiting for a call, or preemptively striking militant caves and whatnot, I'm talking thousands of flight hours, PAF would go bankrupt trying to pull something like this without turboprops.

Karabakh was a target rich region, lots of troop movement, lots of tanks, lots of targets. Bln is exactly the opposite. You have to wait for Ts to pop up, before you can whack them.

Well you could use them when a convoy or a checkpost is attacked but mostly the terrorists attack lone and under manned posts.By the time the turboprops reach there the terrorists will already be gone considering they are highly mobile(use of motorcycles).

 

[Moon]

Well you could use them when a convoy or a checkpost is attacked but mostly the terrorists attack lone and under manned posts.By the time the turboprops reach there the terrorists will already be gone considering they are highly mobile(use of motorcycles).

I mean the last major attack happened 80km from Quetta and lasted "several hours", a pair of COIN aircraft could've easily conduct a sortie in that time frame.
Furthermore a squadron or two posted across Balochistan could easily cover the entire province. The can also provide serious fire power for cross border retaliation.

PAF/PAA can adopt something similar to Air Tractor AT-802, for such use, if saving flyaway cost is the issue

View attachment 753734View attachment 753735

It has EO/IR turret, low operational costs. It's perfect, just needs a glass canopy for better visuals, but yeah better than nothing.

Well you could use them when a convoy or a checkpost is attacked but mostly the terrorists attack lone and under manned posts.By the time the turboprops reach there the terrorists will already be gone considering they are highly mobile(use of motorcycles).

Surveillance of large areas of Balochistan needs to be done, things like High Altitude Pseudo Satellites, tethered balloons, need to be used to at least have a track and trace capability, so you'd at least know what or who hit you, above all know where they went.

 

[Vapnope]

You don't need planes or helicopters for CAS against raid parties of Baluch militants. You need surveillance drones and ground intel to engage them from your pickets and posts. Moreover there is a need of quick reaction force in case of emergency.

 

[SQ8]

How many sorties can PAF do with the Thunder in a month? Without breaking bank? I'm talking complete ground support, for a 5-6 hour engagement? My idea is that the troops have immediate air support, a plane always flying above them, waiting for a call, or preemptively striking militant caves and whatnot, I'm talking thousands of flight hours, PAF would go bankrupt trying to pull something like this without turboprops.

Karabakh was a target rich region, lots of troop movement, lots of tanks, lots of targets. Bln is exactly the opposite. You have to wait for Ts to pop up, before you can whack them.

It wouldn’t matter either way - the loitering time alone lets you sustain a constant UAV presence for a week without undue costs if needed.

 

[Blacklight]

@ali_raza @PanzerKiel @HRK @LeGenD @The Eagle

Interesting history of Pumas with PAA

When first ordered for Pakistan, the Pumas were destined for PAF, but PAA stepped in and took over.

In 1973 on a ferry flight from France, the first a/c flown by Lt.Col. Tirmizi stopped in Jordan, where King Hussein flew it for 30 mins. This was a VIP helo.

The first combat Puma landed on 23rd July 1977, from the initial batch of 30.

Ferry Route for Combat Pumas

Chief of Army Staff General Tikka Khan with Lieutenant General Zia on his right

 

[ali_raza]

@ali_raza @PanzerKiel @HRK @LeGenD @The Eagle

Interesting history of Pumas with PAA

When first ordered for Pakistan, the Pumas were destined for PAF, but PAA stepped in and took over.

In 1973 on a ferry flight from France, the first a/c flown by Lt.Col. Tirmizi stopped in Jordan, where King Hussein flew it for 30 mins. This was a VIP helo.

The first combat Puma landed on 23rd July 1977, from the initial batch of 30.

View attachment 753804
Ferry Route for Combat Pumas

View attachment 753803
Chief of Army Staff General Tikka Khan with Lieutenant General Zia on his right

waao great history