Pakistan Army Aviation Corps - Updated

[hassan1]

DHC-2

 

[Jango]

as far as i can evaluate:
Cobras
Pros: good value for money, will be cheaper and may be partially funded by FMF (unlikely in current situation)
Cons: US reliance!

T-129
Pros: Excellent modern attack helicopter, will be a big leap for army aviation as far as technology is concerned. reliable supplier.
Cons: Expensive, slow delivery time (we don't seem to be in a hurry but the costs might be of a concern)

Z-10
Pros: Good value for money, most reliable supplier for Pakistan, new advanced technology, can get some soft loans and even without it, not TOO expensive.
Cons: A completely new platform, from a supplier not know for helicopters

with this in mind, i think the choice should be that, if we have funds go for T-129 or a mix of T-129 and Z-10, if there is real shortage of funds and we are desperate to get helos quickly, go for Z-10!

Please NO MORE US machinery! Please!

Z-10 might be a possibility after 3 or so years IMO.

And this the most probable.

 

[Nishan_101]

I would stick to one thing that PAC should have look towards JV with China...

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Z-10 might be a possibility after 3 or so years IMO.

And this the most probable.

Any idea about the powerplant? Is it Chinese or European?

I do not think that sensors and other subsystems are at par with let us say T129 or AH1Z.

The soft loans an the price might suit us and the reliable supplier thing would also be there but than can these machines perform in a crunch situation against the Indian armoured onslaught?

We should not judge the performance of these and other platforms based upon their performance in WoT. These platforms are specifically designed to blunt an armoured thrust. The other uses are a bonus.

BTW PA is incresingly using 412's UH-1 (Upgraded) for COIN ops equipped with 20mm, seven barrell gatling guns.

BTW 2. I have heared that alteast one Blackhawk and 1 Apache have been shifted to China by PA after they were found in two forty footer containers in a disassembeled condition from the NATO Supply Convoys. This happened in 2009 or 2010. The source is quite credible. Can anyone shed some light on it or have any info.

 

[fatman17]

Any idea about the powerplant? Is it Chinese or European?

I do not think that sensors and other subsystems are at par with let us say T129 or AH1Z.

The soft loans an the price might suit us and the reliable supplier thing would also be there but than can these machines perform in a crunch situation against the Indian armoured onslaught?

We should not judge the performance of these and other platforms based upon their performance in WoT. These platforms are specifically designed to blunt an armoured thrust. The other uses are a bonus.

BTW PA is incresingly using 412's UH-1 (Upgraded) for COIN ops equipped with 20mm, seven barrell gatling guns.

BTW 2. I have heared that alteast one Blackhawk and 1 Apache have been shifted to China by PA after they were found in two forty footer containers in a disassembeled condition from the NATO Supply Convoys. This happened in 2009 or 2010. The source is quite credible. Can anyone shed some light on it or have any info.

incredible news if true. the yanks would not keep quiet about it?

 

[Last Hope]

Any idea about the powerplant? Is it Chinese or European?

I do not think that sensors and other subsystems are at par with let us say T129 or AH1Z.

The soft loans an the price might suit us and the reliable supplier thing would also be there but than can these machines perform in a crunch situation against the Indian armoured onslaught?

We should not judge the performance of these and other platforms based upon their performance in WoT. These platforms are specifically designed to blunt an armoured thrust. The other uses are a bonus.

BTW PA is incresingly using 412's UH-1 (Upgraded) for COIN ops equipped with 20mm, seven barrell gatling guns.

BTW 2. I have heared that alteast one Blackhawk and 1 Apache have been shifted to China by PA after they were found in two forty footer containers in a disassembeled condition from the NATO Supply Convoys. This happened in 2009 or 2010. The source is quite credible. Can anyone shed some light on it or have any info.

This is not the first time that it happened. Two Chinooks were being supplied in the same condition, and the convoy got attacked and the whereabouts are unknown. This happened in 2009-2010 too.

incredible news if true. the yanks would not keep quiet about it?

The are quite about it apparently, the same way they are quite about the Chinooks being possibly in militant custody.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

This is not the first time that it happened. Two Chinooks were being supplied in the same condition, and the convoy got attacked and the whereabouts are unknown. This happened in 2009-2010 too.


The are quite about it apparently, the same way they are quite about the Chinooks being possibly in militant custody.

The info. on swiping of helos in containers from NATO convoys is also quote in Carey Schofields' book, "Inside Pakistan Army."

However, in my opinion, Chinooks would not fit into 40 footer due to the nature of shape of its structure (No real tail). However, a Blackhawk can be stored in a forty footer in a disassembeled mode.

BTW yuo can buy the Check list, Maint Manual, Etc. of most of the helos in Peshawer. It is sold by the pound!!! One of the PAA pilots was astounded by this discovery -- one of the manuals covered assembly of a Apache!

 

[Jango]

Any idea about the powerplant? Is it Chinese or European?

I do not think that sensors and other subsystems are at par with let us say T129 or AH1Z.

The soft loans an the price might suit us and the reliable supplier thing would also be there but than can these machines perform in a crunch situation against the Indian armoured onslaught?

We should not judge the performance of these and other platforms based upon their performance in WoT. These platforms are specifically designed to blunt an armoured thrust. The other uses are a bonus.

BTW PA is incresingly using 412's UH-1 (Upgraded) for COIN ops equipped with 20mm, seven barrell gatling guns.

BTW 2. I have heared that alteast one Blackhawk and 1 Apache have been shifted to China by PA after they were found in two forty footer containers in a disassembeled condition from the NATO Supply Convoys. This happened in 2009 or 2010. The source is quite credible. Can anyone shed some light on it or have any info.

http://www.cool-smileys.com/smiley-with-eyes-popping-out

Well helis are transported in broken down parts, but why in a truck through Pakistan? A IL-76 or An-124 rented by the Rssian company, or even by the C-5/C-17 might have been a more safe option for the US. And is it 100% confirmed by you?

The AH-1Z is not up for exports until a year more, and the current relations are not really hunky dory either!!!

uh-1's and Bell-412's are a good option for use against militants in the open.

While the Z-10 might not be a really top notch platform, it is still the viable option rather than the Zulu cobra.

T-129 is on a bit expensive side IMO, but a good platform none the less, but PA is in no hurry to go for helis, so after a period of about 1 year, we might get a better clue as to which one is better.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

http://www.cool-smileys.com/smiley-with-eyes-popping-out

Well helis are transported in broken down parts, but why in a truck through Pakistan? A IL-76 or An-124 rented by the Rssian company, or even by the C-5/C-17 might have been a more safe option for the US. And is it 100% confirmed by you?

The AH-1Z is not up for exports until a year more, and the current relations are not really hunky dory either!!!

uh-1's and Bell-412's are a good option for use against militants in the open.

While the Z-10 might not be a really top notch platform, it is still the viable option rather than the Zulu cobra.

T-129 is on a bit expensive side IMO, but a good platform none the less, but PA is in no hurry to go for helis, so after a period of about 1 year, we might get a better clue as to which one is better.

Thanks for the info.

Yes I agree with you taht helos are generally transported by large transport a/c. But my source is 99% sure that the incident did happen. And Carey Schofield quoted this incident in her book. She stayed with PA on and off in the field between 2004 to 2010. So there seem to be some event that happened but was never reported.

The timeline on Z-10 is .... vs AH1Z is end of this year. Furthermore, any info. on the powerplant of Z-10; is it European? If so than there can be this little complication to handle alongwith the gearbox.

My point is to highlight the fact that to put up a credible defense by any country, it has to form alliances. Sometimes, those alliances are not of choice but of convenience or neccessity. We also need to see that what is credible defense against our "Friend" from the east?

All the time making do with stop gaps while our friend is not only enhnacing the quantity but the quality requires a rethink of our external alignments.

Being the smaller army, PA needs to enhnace its quality of hardware and training. Both require induction of top of the line equipment (whether through outright buy or through aid) and access to top quality traning. Unfortunately, those things are not available to our North East.

In the present circumstances, spending $$$ out of pocket is out of question, therefore we need to make intelligent choices, choices that might not be popular but logical and in the interest of Pakistan given the happenings in the east.

 

[Jango]

Being the smaller army, PA needs to enhnace its quality of hardware and training. Both require induction of top of the line equipment (whether through outright buy or through aid) and access to top quality traning. Unfortunately, those things are not available to our North East.

In the present circumstances, spending $$$ out of pocket is out of question, therefore we need to make intelligent choices, choices that might not be popular but logical and in the interest of Pakistan given the happenings in the east.

At the moment, the engine on Z-10 is Pratt and Whitney, to the best of my knowledge. Although a Chinese might be used on production helis, f P&W is the engine used on production line as well, problems may occur.

Now onto the quoted paragraph

The relations with US might not allow for us to go for the top most available platform, in t limit of the cash we have. Even though we might be willing to buy the cobras, even against popular opinion, I doubt that the US would be wanting to go ahead and give the nod to a defense deal of this kind, especially if the current situation exists i.e halt of NATO supply, and a freeze in aids and all sorts of things.

The other two helis in consideration are not yet matured platforms, a bit like JF-17, and while one is cost effective and from a reliable ally (engines might cause a problem due to manufacturer) , the other is bit heavier on the pocket

 

[Aamir Hussain]

At the moment, the engine on Z-10 is Pratt and Whitney, to the best of my knowledge. Although a Chinese might be used on production helis, f P&W is the engine used on production line as well, problems may occur.

Now onto the quoted paragraph

The relations with US might not allow for us to go for the top most available platform, in t limit of the cash we have. Even though we might be willing to buy the cobras, even against popular opinion, I doubt that the US would be wanting to go ahead and give the nod to a defense deal of this kind, especially if the current situation exists i.e halt of NATO supply, and a freeze in aids and all sorts of things.

The other two helis in consideration are not yet matured platforms, a bit like JF-17, and while one is cost effective and from a reliable ally (engines might cause a problem due to manufacturer) , the other is bit heavier on the pocket

Thanks for the info. China is about three years away from perfecting a helo powerplant. Untill than we need to think through our options in relations to our needs both in military and economic front.

Our soldiers died but I would be happy if their supreme sacrafice would ensure a better bargaining position for us in the Afghan end game. If so that sacrafice would not have gone in vain.

We need to move on beyond absolutes. There are no real red lines in relations between countries. US has been forced to come to the negotiating table with more equal terms:

1. UN Peace Keeping type rate and mode of payment of CSF Based Effort(Army so desired)
2. Higher per container transit charge (Civies wanted it)
3. Apology for the attack.
4. Prior notice on drones strikes and priority on TTP/Al-Qaeda strikes in conjunction with PA/Intelligence.

Need to be pragmatic about options and final solutions.

I salute the martyrs of Salala -- afterall they were soldiers of Pakistan and they died for a better tommorow for us. Let us not squander away their sacrafice in drum beating and bravado but gain strength from their sacrafice.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

incredible news if true. the yanks would not keep quiet about it?

Yes you are right in presuming that but than when did we hear anything about any of the hundreds of NVG's, Barrets, Kevlar vests being looted and their empty containers being sold in Peshawer.

There have been reports and videos of HUMVEES being driven in FATA by Talibs.

I am pretty much sure that this event happened. I have heard of this rumor some times ago last year but when a PAA officer confirmed it recently than I brought it up on the forum.

 

[Jango]

Yes you are right in presuming that but than when did we hear anything about any of the hundreds of NVG's, Barrets, Kevlar vests being looted and their empty containers being sold in Peshawer.

There have been reports and videos of HUMVEES being driven in FATA by Talibs.

I am pretty much sure that this event happened. I have heard of this rumor some times ago last year but when a PAA officer confirmed it recently than I brought it up on the forum.

Alot of stuff from the NATO supply goes into the black market. A friend of mine recently bought some digi camos, boots, rifles, almost everything that a infantry soldier has from the outskirts of Peshawar.

But a helo!!!!???

Some stupid Yanks!

 

[fatman17]

Alot of stuff from the NATO supply goes into the black market. A friend of mine recently bought some digi camos, boots, rifles, almost everything that a infantry soldier has from the outskirts of Peshawar.

But a helo!!!!???

Some stupid Yanks!

all is NOT pilfered from the NATO containers. nearly 50% of such equipment supplied/given to the afghan army/police is 'claimed' to be lost and is sold in the bara market by smugglers of both afghan and PK.

 

[mdcp]

We should go for chinese with technology transfer