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Pakistan and Italy Agree to enhance defence ties

We should only go for Selex's Raven ES-05 or something better.
Raven is similar to vixen 1000E in range, T/R modules , and scanning options .. The main difference is inclusion of swash plates in Raven which makes it better to vixen
 
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if we can add 2 seats, can we also add twin engin in jf... or change its size or design?
 
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Till now PAF have always gone for customized versions of radars when it comes to SELEX so if any AESA is coming from them may be tailor made for PAF.

Italy can sell many systems if Pakistan can buy. They can be gateway for products like EFT, SAMS, Ships, small arms etc
 
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That wold be a logistical nightmare, not to mention the separate training and costs involved with it
Alot of countries are interested in buying JF17 block 3 Pakistan can make billion of dollar so as Selex because there are not defense deals in the world with no strings attached
 
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Alot of countries are interested in buying JF17 block 3 Pakistan can make billion of dollar so as Selex because there are not defense deals in the world with no strings attached
How is that related to what I said above ?
 
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How is that related to what I said above ?
If your making business and there is a much better perspective of JF 17 block 3 than we can go for separate training and costs also logistics can be managed
 
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:D :D How about this one..

Aster30.jpg


Lovely Defensive item
 
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Till now PAF have always gone for customized versions of radars when it comes to SELEX so if any AESA is coming from them may be tailor made for PAF.

Italy can sell many systems if Pakistan can buy. They can be gateway for products like EFT, SAMS, Ships, small arms etc
Some of the other things Pakistan might be looking at
1) Osprey electronically scanned radar is installed on an aircraft. Italian defense group Leonardo-Finmeccanica has launched a new 360 degree airborne radar using fixed panels distributed around the body of aircraft, which it claims is the first of its kind.

2) T-129 ATAK Attack Helicopters.

3) Puma Helicopters
 
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Its Not Jealousy but Straight Statecraft Let It Be in that way
Now Lets not get into Off-topic Debate
PAF already talking to Russia for RD 33 its coming :D now become more jealous :D :D
 
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If your making business and there is a much better perspective of JF 17 block 3 than we can go for separate training and costs also logistics can be managed
Hi,

All that is highly dependent on that big 'IF' which is (speaking realistically) is nowhere to be seen in a foreseeable future
 
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It seem PAF, PA and PN all are heading towards ITALY...
It doesn't seem like that at all.

No doubt. Vixen AESA it seems it will be. This is a good development. Ditch the expensive F-16 deal and heavily upgrade the JF-17 capabilities. Negotiate for some ToT in the process. This should have been done long ago. Better late than never.

Wishful thinking. AESA requires an accompanying EW suite which is not available.

Till now PAF have always gone for customized versions of radars when it comes to SELEX so if any AESA is coming from them may be tailor made for PAF.

Italy can sell many systems if Pakistan can buy. They can be gateway for products like EFT, SAMS, Ships, small arms etc

Compromise solutions? It all depends on price. Italians and Chinese products are pretty much at par now, since both countries cheat on quality.

Till now, selex has only sold an altimeter for JF17. That seems to be the only item PAF believes selex has to offer.

Aster System Completely Strategic System Showing System That Does Not Mean they have Authority to sell them. Read Weapon Selling Norms of EU.
MBDA is Complete Monopoly of Airbus & BAE. Italy Only third party Player in Such Project Bigger Firms Call the Shots Here

@Blabla
Selex ES is More than Italian Firm So Raven ES-05& other Products Can be a More realistic Approach Which can be Feasible in Future for PAF.
Selex Also Make IRST Sensor & EW Required For JF-17 Block III

The AESA is manufactured by Selex UK, what used to be BAE Avionic Systems in the UK. Selex IRST doesnt fit in JF17, and EW is not being offered. MBDA Italia offers it to Pakistan as ASEAN, the agent of MBDA in Pakistan routes everything through Italy.

After the SPADA experience, PAF is very critical of MBDA products. I highly doubt that ASTER or anything ASEAN brings on the table will be considered.

@TheGreatOne there is little to no info about the reality of what the chimese radar is. Only vague claims about having reverse engineered Israeli radars, but no confirmation. We know the capabilities of the raven es-05. My opinion, go for a complete selex package for block 3 in the vein of gripen ng.

Chinese tech is license produced Russian Zhuk family of AESA systems. Few of them are operational in China. A "complete" selex package may not be opted for by JF17 PMO as there are numerous options available.
 
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The AESA is manufactured by Selex UK, what used to be BAE Avionic Systems in the UK. Selex IRST doesnt fit in JF17, and EW is not being offered. MBDA Italia offers it to Pakistan as ASEAN, the agent of MBDA in Pakistan routes everything through Italy.

Sir I think you Misinformed In this Matter Any Corporate owner Ship is Stated by Percentage of Share the Firm hold in the Market Selex ES was a subsidiary of Finmeccanica S.p.A. (today Leonardo - Finmeccanica).

Leonardo-Finmeccanica is the leading industrial group in the high-technology sector in Italy and one of the main global players in Aerospace,Defense and security. The company is partially owned by the Italian government through the Ministry of Economic And Finance , which holds 30.204% of Finmeccanirca's shares.

Selex ES Was JV Btw Finmeccanirca & BAE System held by shares of 75% and 25% respectively, with the option for Finmeccanica to later purchase the remaining 25%.

BAE Systems sold its 25% share of SELEX S&AS to Finmeccanica for €400 million in March 2007 Making Finmeccanirca Owner of 100 % shares of Selex ES Making It Its Subsidiary Firm

Likewise MBDA is Just Project Firm Much Like Salex ES Where Mostly Airbus Group & BAE System Call the Shots as they Combine Own 75 % of the Share in the Firm Making Finmeccanica a Minor Partner who Owns only 25 % in this Venture.

Chinese tech is license produced Russian Zhuk family of AESA systems. Few of them are operational in China. A "complete" selex package may not be opted for by JF17 PMO as there are numerous options available.
Zhuk Family Radar is To Much For JF-17 . Its Best Suited For Twin Engine Jet which Suits its Power Requirement
That's why Zhuk AE is Selected For MKI Super-30 Upgrade.
Vixen 1000e is More than Candidate For JF-17.
 
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Chinese defense forums have posted copies of the image above which claim to cite the J-20’s AESA T/R module count at 1,856, the J-16’s at 1,760, and the J-10B at 1,200 T/R modules. It is likely the J-10B is the first Chinese fighter aircraft to feature an AESA; J-10B units achieved initial operational capability (IOC) in October of 2014. The volume of the J-10s nose cone is not substantially different from that of the F-16 or the Israeli Lavi from which the J-10 is partially based. Therefore, if one were to assume China had reached parity with the United States in packaging technology, the 1,200 T/R module figure would be plausible but slightly high. For comparison, the APG-80 AESA for the F-16C/D Block 60 has 1,000 T/R modules (DSB, 2001). However, it is unlikely that China has been able to reach parity with the United States in terms of packaging technology on their first generation AESA design. Neither Russia nor Israel was able to field 1,000 T/R element arrays within their first generation fighter mounted AESAs for similar nose volumes as the F-16 with the Mig-35 and Israeli F-16 respectively.
Russia’s first fighter mounted AESA radar, the Zhuk-AE, contained 652 T/R modules and was unveiled in 2007. The Israeli ELM-2052 AESA radar, which has been marketed for both the F-16 and the FA-50 – a joint Korean Aerospace Industry and Lockheed Martin F-16 derivative, has roughly 512 T/R modules (Trimble, 2014). The only firm outside of the United States that was able to produce a 1,000 T/R element within one generation was the French avionics firm Thales with its RB2E radar (Avionics Today, 2009). While the relative technological maturity of European, Israeli, and Russian AESAs is not directly indicative of the relative technological maturity of China’s packaging technology, it is an indicator that the first generation AESA produced by China is likely not on par with the US which is generally recognized as having the most technological mature T/R packaging technology (Kopp, 2014).
The prospect of China’s T/R packaging technology being on par with US firms within a single generation of radars is even more dubious when one examines the preference for an incremental technological development within the Chinese aerospace industry. Several Chinese aviation authors have hypothesized that the J-10B serves as a “technological stepping stone” with respect to the development of the more advanced J-20. For example, Feng Cao argues the J-10B and the J-16 AESAs were likely used to test technology related to the J-20’s AESA which would be a second generation Chinese design. By virtue of the larger nose volumes in the J-16 and J-20 airframes, it is highly probable the two aircraft will feature radars with more T/R modules than the J-10B’s radar.
The J-16 utilizes the Su-27BS airframe which has room for a 0.9-1.1 meter aperture in the nose which is on par with the F-15 and F-22 in terms of volume (Kopp, 2012). The 1,500 element N036 Tikhomirov NIIP AESA has a similar aperture size to the electronically scanned array (ESA) Irbis-E radar featured in the Su-35 series of fighters which shares the base Su-27 airframe. If the 1,760 T/R figure is correct it would indicate the Chinese aerospace industry has eclipsed Russian T/R module packaging technology as the N036 is arguably the most advanced Russian fighter mounted AESA. Similarly, the most advanced US fighter mounted AESAs such as the APG-77(V)2 and APG-82(V)1 contain 1,500 T/R modules*. While the prospect of Chinese avionics firms reaching parity with US and Russian firms is more plausible within two generations of designs, the author is skeptical the 1,760 figure is correct given the unsubstantiated nature of the image and the fairly substantial 260 T/R discrepancy between the J-16 radar figure compared to the most advanced US and Russian AESA designs. Therefore, the author speculates it would be more reasonable to assume a figure between 1,200 and 1,500 T/R modules for the J-16 rather than the 1,760 figure.
The tentative designation for the J-20's AESA is the Type 1475. While the nose volume of the J-20 is certainly large, the jet overall is longer and heavier than the F-22, no credible figures for nose volume were available at the time of this publication. As with the J-16 T/R figure, the J-20 figure is substantially greater than that of the most advanced US and Russian designs. Even if the Nanjing Research Institute of Electronics Technology (NRIET) or the China Leihua Electronic Technology Research Institute (607 Institute) was able to develop sufficient packaging technology that would enable 1,856 T/R modules within the J-20's nose, the density of the T/R modules would create significant cooling problems. For example, Phazotron's single greatest difficulty in designing the Zuk-AE was the AESA's thermal management system (Kopp, 2008). Without an effective cooling system, the Type 1475 would not be reliable at peak power output and would cause significant maintenance issues. Furthermore, with such a high number of T/R modules, the Type 1475 would be vulnerable to radar warning receiver (RWR) systems such as the ALR-94 without a very capable low probability intercept (LPI) mode.

Chinese%2Bfighter%2Bradars%2B.jpg


*Type 1473 - The maximum detection range figures listed for the Type 1473 are from the EL/M-2032 which is arguably its closest analogue with published performance data (the Israelis supplied EL/M-2032s to China in the early 1990s which was developed into the Type 1473). The tracking and engagement figures for the Type 1473 are provided by Sinodefense.

J-11B-Flanker-B-Systems-1.jpg
 
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