Pakistan and Israel

[pak-yes]

yes MODS this thread should be closed.It has turned into religious debate we don't need to justify Hindus anything about our religion.It is Perfect religion.

 

[All-Green]

Israel is enemy of muslim ummah , it is clear no need any explaination, i dont agree with you if you are telling that make your enemy your friend if he is power full.

But we have to learn lesson from them that their population is only 30 million , how many noble prices jews won and how many muslims won having population of 1.5 Billion?

We should gain knowledge to defeat their anti muslim ummah plans , you know very well they are controlling finance ,media and politicians of US only super power , but soon they will be responsible for distruction of USA due to their distructive idealogy and capitalist instrest based economy with which Allah always at war.

We have to boycot all their products and banks to resist their human right violation in Palestine and try to understand their game in middle east and central asia to capture oil resources and sea trade routes.

Well number one thing which you should at least try to understand is that any enemy can be treated with to ensure betterment of all, i am not talking about surrender of everything but give and take to make sure that you are not annihilated.
It is not cowardice but to end perpetual bloodshed and violence.
The fact that the greatest of Muslims including the Prophet PBUH entered into such treaties is the basis of my argument.
Anyways we can leave a discussion on this for later because that is not the entirety of what i said.

What i was saying was that the ordinary Israeli is not our enemy, the state of Israel perhaps due to its policy can be classified as one but certainly not the common Israeli...

Also to turn a blind eye to what PLO did is not right...the actions of PLO and infighting which made it isolated from its supporters also needs to be examined instead of simply calling all Arab countries as dishonorable cowards who did nothing for Palestinians...
This is a very common misconception that everyone abandoned the Palestinians, many countries risked a lot for them but eventually what the PLO did in Jordan made sure that many in the Arabian countries disliked their highhandedness...

Now the ongoing drama between Fatah and Hamas is there for all to see....how will we help them if their leaders are so full of hate for each other?

Boycott everything Israeli if you so desire because that is fair way to show your anger but spreading hate for all Israelis will not help, it is no denying that whatever arrangement is made in future...Palestinians and Israelis have to live side by side...flaming anger against all Palestinians or Israelis by anyone would only make it worse, now and later.

 

[waraich66]

Well number one thing which you should at least try to understand is that any enemy can be treated with to ensure betterment of all, i am not talking about surrender of everything but give and take to make sure that you are not annihilated.
It is not cowardice but to end perpetual bloodshed and violence.
The fact that the greatest of Muslims including the Prophet PBUH entered into such treaties is the basis of my argument.
Anyways we can leave a discussion on this for later because that is not the entirety of what i said.

What i was saying was that the ordinary Israeli is not our enemy, the state of Israel perhaps due to its policy can be classified as one but certainly not the common Israeli...

Also to turn a blind eye to what PLO did is not right...the actions of PLO and infighting which made it isolated from its supporters also needs to be examined instead of simply calling all Arab countries as dishonorable cowards who did nothing for Palestinians...
This is a very common misconception that everyone abandoned the Palestinians, many countries risked a lot for them but eventually what the PLO did in Jordan made sure that many in the Arabian countries disliked their highhandedness...

Now the ongoing drama between Fatah and Hamas is there for all to see....how will we help them if their leaders are so full of hate for each other?

Boycott everything Israeli if you so desire because that is fair way to show your anger but spreading hate for all Israelis will not help, it is no denying that whatever arrangement is made in future...Palestinians and Israelis have to live side by side...flaming anger against all Palestinians or Israelis by anyone would only make it worse, now and later.

Islamic Fatwa says , land of Palestine can not be sold to Jew , it is haram (Reference Mufti Kafait ullah Deoband).It has same value as we have value of Makkah and Madina.

It is beyond our authority to accept existance of Israel , no doubt Palestinians did lot of mistakes that is reason now they suffering , but muslim ummah should not recognised Israeli state build on occupied land of Palestine.

Business , trade or any exchange of technology is impossible untill every inch of palestine librated from Israeli forces.

Muslim Ummah is at war with Israel and remain uptill complete liberation of Palestine.

 

[neyaab]

this is not possibl
go away Israel


Pkcolumns , Paksitani Columns, Urdu Columns, Pakistani editorials, Pakistani articles

 

[All-Green]

The verses of Quran pertaining to not trusting Jews and Christians is actually referring to the tribes which were either part of Medina pact with Prophet Muhammad PBUH or were neutral overtly but in reality either helped or were secretly arranging with the enemy to annihilate the Muslims in Medina, this was a warning from Allah to his Prophet PBUH and in no way can be interpreted to be a universal order spreading mistrust against all Jews and Christians.

Since Jews and Christians are people of the book they are actually more similar to the Muslims and that is the reason the Prophet PBUH instructed the Muslims to respect them as such and mingle with them.
However a few tribes with political ambitions did not like the high respect and authority which the Prophet PBUH commanded and stooped so low as to betray their comrades of the Medina pact just so to eliminate a political threat.
The treachery of a few Jewish and christian tribes in and around Medina is not a phenomena which has universal implication...this needs to be understood.

For understanding of all let me point to the constitution of Medina in which all people including the Jews were included in the Ummah.
The rights of everyone were guaranteed including the non Muslims whose rights were mentioned as

1 The security (dhimma) of God is equal for all groups, this implies that same protection was offered to everyone regardless of their religion. The dhimma (non muslim citizens) had all rights and instead of Zakat which the Muslims paid, they had to pay Jizya as a tax.
2 Non-Muslim members have equal political and cultural rights as Muslims. They will have autonomy and freedom of religion.
3 Non-Muslims will take up arms against the enemy of the Ummah and share the cost of war. There is to be no treachery between the two. Ummah here means all those in the pact whether Muslim or non Muslim, implying that if any was attacked by outside forces all would collectively fight the aggressor.
4 Non-Muslims will not be obliged to take part in religious wars of the Muslims.

Once certain tribes started collaborating with the Quraish, a divine warning was given to the Prophet PBUH...to extrapolate this into a universal filter through which we have to judge all Christians and Jews is perhaps one of the worst blunders that many half cooked religious scholars make and those who believe them need to reassess this all.

Quran clearly mentions that all those who believe in god and do good deeds shall be rewarded by Him...
“Rest assured that Believers (Muslims), Jews, Christians and Sabians whoever believes in God and the last day and perform good deeds will be rewarded by their Lord; they will have nothing to fear or to regret.” (Qur’an; 2:62)

There are countless other verses which points to good qualities of Jews and Christians

“Among the people of the Book (Jews and Christians) there are those who if you trust them with a treasure, will return it to you; and among them there are those who, if you trust them with a dinar, will not return it to you, unless you keep standing over them.” (3:75)

“They are not all alike. Among the people of the Book there is a party who stand by their covenant; they recite the Word of God in the hours of night and prostrate themselves before Him. They believe in God and the Last Day, and enjoin good and forbid evil, and hasten to vie with one another in good works. And these are among the righteous.” (3:113)

“And surely among the People of the Book there are some who believe in God and in what has been sent down to you and in what was sent down to them, humbling themselves before Allah. They trade not the signs of God for a paltry price. It is these who shall have their reward with their Lord. Surely God is swift in settling account.” (3:199)

What to make of the fact that Allah has made it lawful unto the Muslims to marry women from amongst the Jews and Christians?

"Likewise, marriage with chaste free believing women and also chaste women among the People who were given the Book before you is made lawful for you." (Qur’an; 5:5)

So you can marry them but not trust them?

Clearly one needs to understand that the mistrust is only pertaining to those who are oppressors and deny others their rights to co exist...which even applies to Muslims who are oppressors.

There is no reason for Muslims to mistrust all Jews and Christians, we should denounce the Israeli aggression and take practical steps to resolve the conflict but certainly this does not mean that all Israelis are evil and the entire Jewish community is our enemy.

 

[All-Green]

Islamic Fatwa says , land of Palestine can not be sold to Jew , it is haram (Reference Mufti Kafait ullah Deoband).It has same value as we have value of Makkah and Madina.

It is beyond our authority to accept existance of Israel , no doubt Palestinians did lot of mistakes that is reason now they suffering , but muslim ummah should not recognised Israeli state build on occupied land of Palestine.

Business , trade or any exchange of technology is impossible untill every inch of palestine librated from Israeli forces.

Muslim Ummah is at war with Israel and remain uptill complete liberation of Palestine.

The land of Palestine was resided by many Jews as well, Jerusalem is not the same as Mecca and Medina because in Mecca and Medina non Muslims are not allowed whereas in Jerusalem non Muslims are and were always allowed...from a religious perspective there is nothing wrong with Palestinians and Israelis co existing, however in current scenario the Israeli state has denied Palestinians their rights and therefore has to be pressurized to become less hostile.

However if you believe that any piece of Palestinian land cannot be owned by a Jew then that is something both history and religion prove absolutely wrong.
This land was and will always be shared between all the people of the book...it is not a Muslim only zone like Mecca and Medina....

This so called fatwa if you have translated correctly implies that the Caliphs of Islam from Umar RA onwards and likes of Salahuddin got it all wrong regarding Jerusalem because in their times all the people of the book shared Jerusalem and owned land in Jerusalem and the surrounding land?
Certainly that is not the case!

The thing which is wrong with Israel is that they are forcibly taking away a land which by its history was shared amongst people of all faiths and this was honored by Muslim Caliphs and Kings since the advent of Islam.
The new settlements are illegal and certainly should be opposed!
They are practically keeping the Palestinians under siege and that is what we should denounce...because it is not in the spirit of the holy land.
It is not that Jews or Christians cannot own property in Jerusalem or the land of Palestine...they always did and that was not denied to them by the Muslims rulers even despite the fact that when the ignorant Christian crusaders captured Jerusalem they slaughtered the Muslims.
When the fortunes of wars reversed and Salahuddin retook Jerusalem from the Christians...he did not target any Christian nor expel them from Jerusalem...clearly the principles of Islam were dear to him and i wish our people could learn from Salahuddin regarding how to conduct themselves in such a situation.
Israels aggression does not imply that we also demand more than what was our share, Muslims and Jews co existed peacefully in this land before the creation of Israel and so that is what we should work back towards...we should be concerned with getting the Palestinians their rights...not the destruction of Israeli Jews from the face of the earth.

The dislike of Israel should not be translated into mistrust or hate of Jews or Christians.

 

[Storm Force]

Why are pakistan defense forum talking about Israel

Theres no link.

They are totally unrelated

OTHER THAN INDIA,S BIGGEST ARMS SUPPLIER after RUSSIA

 

[KillBill]

Don't jump to conclusions. Read and understand what is the message. When we are told that Yahood and Hanood are never your friends but friends of each other, that does not stop us from doing trade, negotiations or treaties with them.. but what God has mentioned is affirmative and the bottom line. We are asked to be careful about them by understanding that fact. If we hate Yahood and Hanood, who do you think are left to preach? Alians? Who are Muslims? the ones who grow from wheat fields? Being a Muslim means somebody who surrenders himself and his will to the God and does only what God has commanded him/her to do. Even if you starting doing the same in the next minute, you are Muslim.. and the God is same God who you recognize and call Brahma. Muslims DO NOT HATE Yahood or Hanood but we know for the fact that they could be friends of each-other but Never a reliable partner, friend or supporter of Muslims. Period.

The ones born to Muslim parents?

In my knowledge in 2009, most of the muslims are BORN muslims, they are not the one who were yahood or hanood and learnt this religion and embrassed this. Am i Wrong?

So unless you have compared the messages in each religion and did not actually CHOOSE this how can you say that you surrendered ?

 

[waraich66]

The land of Palestine was resided by many Jews as well, Jerusalem is not the same as Mecca and Medina because in Mecca and Medina non Muslims are not allowed whereas in Jerusalem non Muslims are and were always allowed...from a religious perspective there is nothing wrong with Palestinians and Israelis co existing, however in current scenario the Israeli state has denied Palestinians their rights and therefore has to be pressurized to become less hostile.

However if you believe that any piece of Palestinian land cannot be owned by a Jew then that is something both history and religion prove absolutely wrong.
This land was and will always be shared between all the people of the book...it is not a Muslim only zone like Mecca and Medina....

This so called fatwa if you have translated correctly implies that the Caliphs of Islam from Umar RA onwards and likes of Salahuddin got it all wrong regarding Jerusalem because in their times all the people of the book shared Jerusalem and owned land in Jerusalem and the surrounding land?
Certainly that is not the case!

The thing which is wrong with Israel is that they are forcibly taking away a land which by its history was shared amongst people of all faiths and this was honored by Muslim Caliphs and Kings since the advent of Islam.
The new settlements are illegal and certainly should be opposed!
They are practically keeping the Palestinians under siege and that is what we should denounce...because it is not in the spirit of the holy land.
It is not that Jews or Christians cannot own property in Jerusalem or the land of Palestine...they always did and that was not denied to them by the Muslims rulers even despite the fact that when the ignorant Christian crusaders captured Jerusalem they slaughtered the Muslims.
When the fortunes of wars reversed and Salahuddin retook Jerusalem from the Christians...he did not target any Christian nor expel them from Jerusalem...clearly the principles of Islam were dear to him and i wish our people could learn from Salahuddin regarding how to conduct themselves in such a situation.
Israels aggression does not imply that we also demand more than what was our share, Muslims and Jews co existed peacefully in this land before the creation of Israel and so that is what we should work back towards...we should be concerned with getting the Palestinians their rights...not the destruction of Israeli Jews from the face of the earth.

The dislike of Israel should not be translated into mistrust or hate of Jews or Christians.

Question and Answer Details


Name of Questioner
Foulan

Title
Islamic Ruling on Selling the Palestinian Lands to the Jews

Question
Dear scholars, as-Salamu `alaykum. What is the Islamic legal ruling concerning selling the Palestinian lands to the Jews or receiving compensations for it?

Date
15/May/2004

Name of Counsellor
A Group of Islamic Researchers

Topic
Relations during War



Answer



Wa `alaykum As-Salamu wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh.


In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.


All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.


Dear brother in Islam, we would like to thank you for the great confidence you place in us, and we implore Allah Almighty to help us serve His cause and render our work for His Sake.

It is to be stated that Muslim scholars have unanimously agreed that it is haram (unlawful) to sell Palestinian lands to the Jews, and to practice brokerage activities or mediation to facilitate selling the lands by any means or under any form. In a large meeting held at Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem on 26 January 1935, a host of scholars gave their Fatwa concerning the legality or otherwise of selling the Palestinian lands to the Jews. The content of the Fatwa is as follows:

"All praise and thanks are due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds, and peace and blessings be upon His trustworthy Messenger, His kith and kin, his companions, and all those who follow their guidance until the Day of Judgment.

To commence: we, the muftis, judges, instructors, orators, Imams, preachers and all Muslim scholars in Palestine, gathered today in this religious meeting held at Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, the neighborhood whereof Allah has blessed. After a thorough analysis and deep thought as for the consequences of selling the Palestinian lands to the Jews, we come to the conclusion that this would fulfill the objectives of Zionism, which aims at the Judaization of Islamic holy lands, usurping them and expelling people from their homes. This (i.e. selling the lands) would, moreover, erase the traces of Islam by demolishing mosques, places of worship as well as Islamic holy places. This has already taken place in the villages that were sold to the Jews; they expelled their inhabitants and rendered them homeless. There is fear lest this –Allah forbid – might occur in Al-Aqsa Mosque, the first of the two Qiblas (direction of prayer) and the third of the holy Mosques.

Reviewing the Fatwas given by Muslim muftis and scholars in Iraq, Egypt, India, Morocco, Syria, Palestine and other Muslim countries, we found out that they have unanimously agreed that it is haram to sell Palestinian lands to the Jews, and to practice brokerage activities or mediation to facilitate selling the lands by any means or under any form. The scholars have also declared unlawful that a person should accept this or show reticence about it. Should any Palestinian get involved in any of these activities, he will be considered fully aware of its consequences and satisfied with it – which means that he will be accused of disbelief and apostasy if he comes to deem it halal (lawful) to do so. This has been stated in the fatwa given by his Eminence Sheikh Amin Al-Husayni, the mufti of Jerusalem and the head of the supreme Islamic council.

Having examined all the aforementioned Fatwas, we voice our support and approval that the seller of, broker and mediator in selling the Palestinian lands to the Jews is to be regarded as:

1) Supporting and helping in the expulsion of Muslims from their homes;

2) Preventing Allah’s Name to be mentioned in Allah’s mosques and endeavoring for their ruing;

3) Taking the Jews as patrons and supporters, since his action implies his assistance and helping them against Muslims;

4) Doing harm to Allah, His Messenger (Muhammad), and the Believers (Muslims);

5) And as betraying Allah, His Messenger and the responsibility he was entrusted with. This prohibition of selling the Palestinian lands finds support in the following verses of the Glorious Qur'an:

“O you who believe! Betray not Allah and his Messenger, nor betray knowingly your moral responsibilities (entrusted to you). And know that your possession and your children are but a trial and that surely with Allah is a mighty reward.” (Al-Anfal: 27-28)

“And those who harm believing men and women undeservedly, bear on themselves the crime of slander and plain sin.” (Al-Ahzab: 58)

“And who is more unjust than those who forbid that Allah’s Name be glorified and mentioned much in Allah’s mosques and strive for their ruin? It was not fitting that such should themselves enter them except in fear. For them there is disgrace in this world, and will have a great torment in the hereafter.” (Al-Baqarah: 114)

“Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity. It is only as regards those who fought against you on account of religion, and have driven you out of your homes, and helped to drive you out, that Allah forbids you to befriend them. And whosoever will befriend them, them such are the wrongdoers.” (Al-Mumtahanah: 8-9)

“O you believe! Take not my enemies and your enemies as friends.” (Al-Mumtahanah: 1)

“And if any amongst you takes them as supporters them surely he is of them.” (Al-Ma’idah: 51) Exegetes of the Qur’an mention that “he is one of them” means he is considered one of them (one enemy of Allah) and thus be punished the same way as them.
From all the foregoing evidence, sayings, judgments and Fatwas, we conclude that the one who sell land to the Jews in Palestine – whether he does so directly or through mediation – and anyone who acts as a broker, or mediator in the selling as well as anyone who facilitates the sale in any way, while being fully aware of the aforesaid consequences, must not be offered the Funeral Prayer when dead or buried in the Muslims cemetery. We must boycott, scoff at them and not be friendly or close to them even if they were our fathers, children, brothers or husbands. Allah says: “O you who believe! Take not for supporters and helpers your fathers and your brothers if they prefer disbelief to belief. And whoever of your wives, your kindred, the wealth that you have gained, the commerce in which your fear a decline, and the dwellings in which you delight … are dearer to you than Allah and his Messenger, and striving hard and fighting in His cause, then wait until Allah brings about His Decision. And Allah guides not the people who are disobedient to Allah.” (At-Tawbah: 23-24)

Likewise, showing reticence and indifference to such a despicable act is absolutely unlawful, (as Allah says “O you believe! Answer Allah and His Messenger when he calls you to that which will give you life, and know that Allah comes in between a person and his heart. And verily to Him you shall be gathered. And fear the Fitnah (affliction and trial) which affects not in particular those of you who do and know that Allah is severe in punishment.” (Al-Anfal: 24-25)

May Allah make us amongst those who listen to admonition and follow the best thereof. He is indeed our supreme patron and He is for sure the Best Disposer of Affairs. Issued on 20 Shawwal, 1533 A.H / 26 January 1935 C.E."

Taken from publications of Al-Maktab Al-I`lami Al-`Arabi (the Arab Media Office) Cairo, Egypt.



You can also read:


Accepting Compensation For Land Of Palestine Is One Of The Gravest Sins

Islamic Ruling on Selling the Palestinian Lands to the Jews - IslamonLine.net - Ask The Scholar

 

[Solomon2]

"The Temple Mount—and Jerusalem—are Israel’s by Divine Right from
time immemorial. Israel recaptured its historic capital, Jerusalem, when the
Arabs threatened to push the Jews into the sea. It is wise not to question
Divine providence."

- Abdul Hadi Palazzi

 

[UchihaCG]

The ones born to Muslim parents?

In my knowledge in 2009, most of the muslims are BORN muslims, they are not the one who were yahood or hanood and learnt this religion and embrassed this. Am i Wrong?

So unless you have compared the messages in each religion and did not actually CHOOSE this how can you say that you surrendered ?

Agree, I know a girl here who's from Pakistan (living in the US) and she reads the Qur'an in Arabic...... and I asked her one day, they teach Arabic in Pakistan? and she said, yes i learned to read the Quran. And i asked; do you understand? she said no. I only read. When I asked her what's the point of that? she told me she just reads.... and Allah will bless her for being muslim.

^^.
She's a "muslim" who listens to her parents, celebrates eid, fasts and eats halal.


Makes plenty of sense doesn't it.

she's 17, and i'm very good friends with her....

EDIT: Yes that's sarcasm (since people didn't get it) Muslims now don't even know what they stand for....... this is a correct example. She reads, yet doesn't understand. But she follows all these things a good muslim is supposed to do. (eid, fasting, etc....). What's the point of your religion then?

 

[MadDog]

Listen dude,
thats why i read a book "Development of Science & Technology
In Islamic History" by a British avionics engineer Shabeer Ahmed.

According to him one of the major reasons muslims started laggging behind in Science and Tech was not learning Arabic...as all the research (if u check there r many BBC documentries, numbers 1-9, who made sulphuric acid, the word chemistry from al-kimia or the word algebra from aljabr or algorithms...all had basis in Arabic.)
When muslims spread to other countries they didnt learn Arabic and got influenced by local cultures..that is the one of the reason that they lacked behind). Others can be lack of use of ijthihad when confronted by new situations in new cultures...etc.
Anyways...today European children learn more than one language in secondary school..Pak govt can introduce more languages including Arabic in high school if it wants. In Ottoman Empire along with Turkish, Arabic as also used...so although it is good to recite Holy Quran in Arabic...but translation can't tell what the real language can tell as Arabic is the most flexible language and each word has many meanings...u can't understand the proper in-depth meaning through translation only...Arabic is realy important...i myself along with my friends am thinking of odering one realy nice book to learn Arabic..

 

[MadDog]

So in the end it can be said muslims need to change themselves and wake up.... The Prophet Muhammad (SAW)'s companions (R): whenever they used to meet any outsider, the forgieners used to get so much impressed by their manners and rules of Islam that they used to convert but now the muslims are responsible for this condition in which they are as they ar'nt following anything properly.

 

[ARSENAL6]

^^.
She's a "muslim" who listens to her parents, celebrates eid, fasts and eats halal.


Makes plenty of sense doesn't it.

EDIT: she's 17, and i'm very good friends with her....

Thats doesn't make someone a muslim !
Although it is one of the minor characteristics but it doesn't differentiate it to a non-muslim.
Keep your ideas to yourself UchihaCG

 

[ARSENAL6]

"The Temple Mount—and Jerusalem—are Israel’s by Divine Right from
time immemorial. Israel recaptured its historic capital, Jerusalem, when the
Arabs threatened to push the Jews into the sea. It is wise not to question
Divine providence."

- Abdul Hadi Palazzi

Wishful thinking if you think you're going to get Muslim beliving on that rubbish of Irseal existance.
Solomon I have got Jewish Scholas that beilve that Isreal has nothing to do with Judisium and is a terrorist country.
I would provide links to it but you wouldn't want to know the truth as Allah(Swt) said in the glorious Quran that he blinded them made them deaf and dumb because of thier lies.