Pakistan and Israel

[waz]

Pakistan should establish dialogue with the Israelis and at least we could help the situation in Palestine i.e. through negotiation, acting as a third party. The Palestinians should be given their rights and they can live in a two state system, in perfect solidarity with the Jewish people.

Virtually all Israelis want peace. Having spoken to so many all they want to do is live their lives and make sure their children's futures are secure.

For centuries as far as Islamic records go back Muslims and our Jewish cousins have lived side by side and in peace. For instance the Ottoman empire welcomed masses of Jewish refugees to their territories after they were expelled from Europe. There are many other examples of cooperation that can be listed.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

What commonalities you are actually pointing at?

the biggest one is the basis of the existance was religion
the other one is we share the same food preferences (dont eat prok, blood etc) and for a Muslim it is mandatory to belive in all Israeli prophets Ibrahim, Moses, Yousaf etc all are celebrated Prophets (peace be upon them) of Jews and Muslims.

our Prophet PBUH His family had business with them and Ali even worked for a Jew landord while he himself was the Caliph.
other commonalities are saving Jews from Christian persecution during crusades and during seond world war while Nazi German campaign in Africa.

the only nag here is the unfair treatement of Palestinian people

 

[unicorn]

let me pose your question with a simple question:


isn't it hypocritical for Pakistanis to deny Jews the right to a Jewish (ideological) homeland??

of course methods of ''implementation'' have --in the past and in current times --been nothing short of inhumane and ILLEGAL; but with that said, and from a purely professional standpoint, Palestine isn't our fight.

As Muslims, it is our duty to be united and provide support to them whenever and however. But as Pakistanis, we need to think about non-aggression and putting all options on the table, rather than limiting ourselves. We have one primary adversary (unfortunately thats how it is), and that is to the east.






in fact, i will be bold and say publicly that Jews are like cousins to Muslims. Zionist ideology is not Jewish ideology, it is a political nationalist ideology which only uses religion for political purposes (kind of like what Al qaeda initially did in Persian Gulf especially KSA)


there is quite a lot in common between both faiths; some people are just scared to acknowledge or accept it.


Put an Orthodox Muslim and an Orthodox Jew in the same room, give them the full ''chai / mitthai'' package --let them talk things through and they will realize they share the EXACT same values on almost everything

Congratulations!
Very unsmartly you bypass my question.
Now come to your point which you make here.First point that you make is that palestine is not our fight.What makes you say that religion or ethics.If religion than you are wrong.But if your ethics,than definitely those ethics coincide with the religion.
The second point you actually give the commomality about biscuit and tea.
I can tell you the biggest commonality between them and us.They have accepted that there is none but only one God.We also believe that and have faith in it.
And I can tell you what is the biggest difference between them and us is that they have rejected the word of God and we have not.

 

[unicorn]

the biggest one is the basis of the existance was religion
the other one is we share the same food preferences (dont eat prok, blood etc) and for a Muslim it is mandatory to belive in all Israeli prophets Ibrahim, Moses, Yousaf etc all are celebrated Prophets (peace be upon them) of Jews and Muslims.

our Prophet PBUH His family had business with them and Ali even worked for a Jew landord while he himself was the Caliph.
other commonalities are saving Jews from Christian persecution during crusades and during seond world war while Nazi German campaign in Africa.

the only nag here is the unfair treatement of Palestinian people

If you are talking about these types of commonalities than what makes it different between us and everybody else.Two eyes two ears one head.If a person acts the same as any other muslim but does't believe in Allah than he is a lot different.
If I look from your perspective than every one share the common ground isn't it .No one is different.But it is faith that makes us different and that is the thing we should be looking for.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

by the same token, very ''unsmartly'' you bypass my question as well

lines 3-4 of your post i didn't quite get, perhaps you'd care to elaborate further

 

[Spitfighter]

for the record, it is already known that UAE and KSA regularly have back-channel diplomacy with the israelis; however it is not made public due to the possible negative reaction

My point exactly. Back channel diplomacy is not the same as full fledged diplomatic relations.

made public due to the possible negative reaction

Precisely why Israel's strongest partners are outside the Muslim world.

Surprisingly, Pakistanis seem very keen on establishing relations with Israel. I sincerely expected a much more hostile reaction to the prospect. I wonder, does this have anything to do with India's relations with Israel?

 

[unicorn]

isn't it hypocritical for Pakistanis to deny Jews the right to a Jewish (ideological) homeland??

Pakistanis are not the one to decide that.Pakistani people should only cares about the religion.And religion points that we should deny their homeland which is occupied if you know the history well.

 

[Spitfighter]

If you are talking about these types of commonalities than what makes it different between us and everybody else.Two eyes two ears one head.If a person acts the same as any other muslim but does't believe in Allah than he is a lot different.
If I look from your perspective than every one share the common ground isn't it .No one is different.But it is faith that makes us different and that is the thing we should be looking for.

From the tone of his posts, it sounds like he's desperately trying to find some common ground so he can have the 'neighbors' believe that Pakistan is still a part of the equation.

 

[unicorn]

by the same token, very ''unsmartly'' you bypass my question as well

lines 3-4 of your post i didn't quite get, perhaps you'd care to elaborate further

Yes you will definitely not get it because you just live in the wonderland created by your own views.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

My point exactly. Back channel diplomacy is not the same as full fledged diplomatic relations.

Surprisingly, Pakistanis seem very keen on establishing relations with Israel. I sincerely expected a much more hostile reaction to the prospect.

delve further in and you will see a fine assortment and array of views here......some for it, some against it

I'm not sure if you read or comprehended my past few posts in their entirety. I propose a similar approach (tidbits from KSA, UAE, Azerbaijan, Turkiye etc.) for Pakistan.

The latter 2 have full diplomatic relations with israel, though more military in nature. We can (and should) do so when the time is right. Until then, I propose that a small delegation meets in Tel Aviv and Islamabad --- purely a professional, gentle-men type atmosphere. We discuss concerns, areas where we can colloborate or agree on (and agree to disagree on in courteous fashion)


i.e. when prospects for a Palestinian state are realized and at least in the closer-than-distant ''offing'' ...........between you and I, I think the Camp David solution was the closest they got and in retrospect, I wish it was accepted by both parties

under the hawkish Netanyahu, i see no immediate relief from status quo at this current time and juncture....but Pakistanis are a patient and observant people, we will watch and see what happens

I wonder, does this have anything to do with India's relations with Israel?

well i'll be very blunt with you.....they do make some hardware i'd love to get my hands on


but i think you are inflating the ''importance'' of hindustan here.....we dont base all our decisions on what indian position is or what indian relations are.

we shouldnt even waste our time talking about indian in the very hypothetical scenario that we engage with israelis.......if they provide some defence hardwares or give you a few UAVs for observation (one of which we shot down already ) then so be it



BUSINESS is BUSINESS. In business, there shouldnt be too much emotion or sentiments involved. Only sissies do that stuff. Do israelis arm my enemies? Sure they do.

But then again, Russians are giving me engines for my JF-17 Thunders. Works both ways I guess.

 

[Spitfighter]

isn't it hypocritical for Pakistanis to deny Jews the right to a Jewish (ideological) homeland??

Pakistanis are not the one to decide that.Pakistani people should only cares about the religion.And religion points that we should deny their homeland which is occupied if you know the history well.

I think its important to be practical in today's day and age. You're talking about a developed nation with a very capable military. No one is about to deny them their homeland. I think the focus should be on finding pragmatic solutions rather than fantasizing about another holocaust.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Yes you will definitely not get it because you just live in the wonderland created by your own views.

well I'm sorry you join a forum and expect everyone to conform to your own views, and attempt to debunk (without any real reasoning or examples) that which you take issue with

feel free to ignore my post and simply move on, friend

 

[Spitfighter]

under the hawkish Netanyahu, i see no immediate relief from status quo at this current time and juncture....but Pakistanis are a patient and observant people, we will watch and see what happens

I agree, and this just in...

BBC News - Israel passes bill on withdrawal from land

 

[unicorn]

Abu Zolfiqar
Don't even bother to answer Indians talking about Israel with us.You will just waist your time.
I know exactly what you are thinking.But one last word you agree with me or not that the fundamental difference between Jew and us is the Faith.The point about commonalities that you tell me not eating pork etc are all I am not denying.I should have not argue with you in the first place brother.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

I think its important to be practical in today's day and age. You're talking about a developed nation with a very capable military. No one is about to deny them their homeland. I think the focus should be on finding pragmatic solutions rather than fantasizing about another holocaust.

I think it is essentially the European countries ---many of which would progress and become industrialist countries today -- which should have ''pocketed'' the responsibility and granted land for an israeli/jewish homeland

it was there where a pan-nationalist / ethno-centric regime drove them out like cattle and/or killed them mercilessly

holocaust was horrible thing that happened


its unfortunatate that Palestinians had to be the ones to suffer and be displaced......but what has happened has happened. You cant just tell them to leave at this point. If you do, be very very very well armed and equipped to deal with it.


pragmatic solution is required.....Camp David was one of them; I personally believe Jerusalem is a holy city for the 3 top faiths of the world. It should be jointly shared and jointly administered.


perhaps overly-idealistic approach, but oh well.....


what i wont state is that Jews should pack up and leave. I wont state it because it is unrealistic and I know it wont happen. Therefore we (THEY) should work with what is given and find a way forward.