Pakistan Airforce Procurement plans after 2001- Myths and Realities

[MastanKhan]

We live in a strange world and every single day things are changing ,Ever since i started following in 2004 i still feel left out about Rafale ,you are absolutely correct and to answer JF17 program would have been started with block 3/4 of today had we chose Rafale French Engine and Orders for exports would have been sure short .Alas people still defends the strangest of all decision .

hadees "momin aik sorakh se 2 bar nhi dasa jata"(yani 1 shakhs se 2 bar dhoka nhi khata)" (bukhari j:3 h:1065)

Hi,

You are correct---at this time---the JF17 would have been the ' eye candy ' way ahead of the Gripen---.

 

[war&peace]

We live in a strange world and every single day things are changing ,Ever since i started following in 2004 i still feel left out about Rafale ,you are absolutely correct and to answer JF17 program would have been started with block 3/4 of today had we chose Rafale French Engine and Orders for exports would have been sure short .Alas people still defends the strangest of all decision .

hadees "momin aik sorakh se 2 bar nhi dasa jata"(yani 1 shakhs se 2 bar dhoka nhi khata)" (bukhari j:3 h:1065)

Let's apply this hadeeth to our leadership in general.
And our leadership has been fooled again and again by the same people for the same reason. The hadeeth talks about twice getting deceived and declare effectively that the person has no more faith in him. But what about those who get dodged multiple times....I think they are not even human being by that analogy.
But who are our leaders ? Do they have anything to do with the religion ... No
Read Shahabnama by Qudratullah Shahab to get a glimpse of their moral bankruptcy and incompetence. They are unfit for any country but the international powers have kept them imposed on us. If you discuss any hadeeth with them, they will make fun of you and make even fun of the hadeeth and if you insist, they will label you fundamentalist

 

[CHI RULES]

Now just compare PAF's attitude with PA in regard to the acquisition of new system. PA already has a great tank AK but now it is acquiring Haider MBT which will be Type-99 that will give them and technological edge over IA's Arjun and T-90M.

Sir Haider will bring only parity with first tier IA tanks,further MBTS and other stuff of PA is much cheaper and available from large number of vendors. However PAF equipment is lot costlier and available from few countries (out of which only China and up to some extent Russia are ready to provide new jets but to be honest their fighter jets no matter how much look superior still can't reach standards of Eu or US fighters.

Instead of French we should have concentrated towards our already established relation ship with Italians. Even there are vital chances that PAF may go for Italian avionics in Block -iii JF17.

However PAF is more of a reactionary force limited to IAF developments. If one looks deeper he may get that despite disadvantages once Rafael is inducted by IAF we may go for any 4.5th gen fighter jet either J10 b/c or Su35.

 

[volatile]

Let's apply this hadeeth to our leadership in general.
And our leadership has been fooled again and again by the same people for the same reason. The hadeeth talks about twice getting deceived and declare effectively that the person has no more faith in him. But what about those who get dodged multiple times....I think they are not even human being by that analogy.
But who are our leaders ? Do they have anything to do with the religion ... No
Read Shahabnama by Qudratullah Shahab to get a glimpse of their moral bankruptcy and incompetence. They are unfit for any country but the international powers have kept them imposed on us. If you discuss any hadeeth with them, they will make fun of you and make even fun of the hadeeth and if you insist, they will label you fundamentalist

Will be off topic but you are right infact the leaders are from among us .Problem lies not technical but strategic interest

 

[war&peace]

Sir Haider will bring only parity with first tier IA tanks,further MBTS and other stuff of PA is much cheaper and available from large number of vendors. However PAF equipment is lot costlier and available from few countries (out of which only China and up to some extent Russia are ready to provide new jets but to be honest their fighter jets no matter how much look superior still can't reach standards of Eu or US fighters.

Instead of French we should have concentrated towards our already established relation ship with Italians. Even there are vital chances that PAF may go for Italian avionics in Block -iii JF17.

However PAF is more of a reactionary force limited to IAF developments. If one looks deeper he may get that despite disadvantages once Rafael is inducted by IAF we may go for any 4.5th gen fighter jet either J10 b/c or Su35.

I will request you provide a more detailed analysis of Type-99 vs top tier IA's tanks. I stand by my comment. Of course infantry equipment is cheaper than airforce and even artillery is cheaper than most of the air defence systems. But the number of systems for airforce is much smaller too. So the total sum spent is equivalent.
Another myth, west does not want to provide A/C to PAF is not true either. Even USA is willing to sell you F-16 but not at the reduced price and I think Rafale was available and may still be available if PAF wants..just check OP and post by @MastanKhan.
J-10 C/D is not 4.5 gen ...it just compares with F-16 ( latest blocks of the latter)
PAF is still not willing to go for Su-35 despite the fact they are happy flying F-7pg (Mig-21 China version) till 2022, but Su-35 does not measure up to their "standards"...They may very well go for EFT if they get money. And I will be happy even if they go for EFT.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

What becomes very obvious is that the Paf was oblivious to the threat from the enemy---it was just living under the illusion of the ' man behind the machine ' kind of mentality---not coming to grips that each of the enemy primary aircraft may have 3 to 4 times the power of our own aircraft---.

Plus it not the machine that is fighting by itself---it is all the complimentary assets---advance electronics and potent missile systems that to compliment that man behind the machine which makes the difference.

 

[salarsikander]

What becomes very obvious is that the Paf was oblivious to the threat from the enemy

It's no wonder that they have not inducted any bomber or as per say bomb truck since the famous canberra ( 8-charlie)

 

[war&peace]

It's no wonder that they have not inducted any bomber or as per say bomb truck since the famous canberra ( 8-charlie)

JH-7B can be a great bomber due to its carrying capacity.

 

[salarsikander]

JH-7B can be a great bomber due to its carrying capacity.

Can be ??? !! its a perfect combination and now with EW variant it is extremely potent

 

[war&peace]

Can be ??? !! its a perfect combination and now with EW variant it is extremely potent

Since it is not as expensive as Su-35 so I think it can a good alternative but let's be realistic and hope that PAF gets some 4.5 gen A/C as a stop gap solution and Su-35 or EFT will be a great solution till a true 5th gen A/C is available J-31 or TFX (or a combo) . I think it won't be before 2025.

 

[salarsikander]

Since it is not as expensive as Su-35 so I think it can a good alternative but let's be realistic and hope that PAF gets some 4.5 gen A/C as a stop gap solution and Su-35 or EFT will be a great solution till a true 5th gen A/C is available J-31 or TFX (or a combo) . I think it won't be before 2025.

The problem is not getting stuff as painted, Its the very mentality the vision that they lack.

You see these generals and their families buying houses in the US, thats all what they think about where to move out after retirement

 

[war&peace]

The problem is not getting stuff as painted, Its the very mentality the vision that they lack.

You see these generals and their families buying houses in the US, thats all what they think about where to move out after retirement

You are right but Gen. are still better than our AMs and AVMs since at least they have been equipping PA with required systems while PAF totally changed its mind from once offensive force (1965) to a not even defensive (1999), I hope the situation is better now but still I'm afraid that Rafale's induction will increase that gap again...They need to change their mind. I trust they are doing a great job on many fronts and are ready to lay their lives for the nation but actually i want to see my pilots return safely to homes after completing the missions.
As we Pakistanis understand cricket so I will quote Imran Khan, the legend, that the best defence is the offence, never play on back-foot and with a defeated mind. I put this theory to the test and my experience has been positive.

 

[salarsikander]

You are right but Gen. are still better than our AMs and AVMs since at least they have been equipping PA with required systems while PAF totally changed its mind from once offensive force (1965) to a not even defensive (1999), I hope the situation is better now but still I'm afraid that Rafale's induction will increase that gap again...They need to change their mind. I trust they are doing a great job on many fronts and are ready to lay their lives for the nation but actually i want to see my pilots return safely to homes after completing the missions.
As we Pakistanis understand cricket so I will quote Imran Khan, the legend, that the best defence is the offence, never play on back-foot and with a defeated mind. I put this theory to the test and my experience has been positive.

Actually you know what I pray that Indian gets rafaels and bring to Pakistan for a run, perhaps that would put some sense in their hard head

 

[MastanKhan]

Since it is not as expensive as Su-35 so I think it can a good alternative but let's be realistic and hope that PAF gets some 4.5 gen A/C as a stop gap solution and Su-35 or EFT will be a great solution till a true 5th gen A/C is available J-31 or TFX (or a combo) . I think it won't be before 2025.

Hi,

And there are some very very very senior people on this board who state that the paf assessed that aircraft and found it not to be very maneuverable---and they are okay with that claim.

 

[wiseone2]

Introductory Disclaimer:

In addition, the Pakistan air force had also evaluated multiple other aircraft during the sanction years, which included the Eurofighter Typhoon, Dassault Rafale, SU 27, Mig-29 and had been given the chance to get first impressions of the Chinese J 10 fighter.


@ghazi768 @Bilal Khan 777 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Manticore

Any factual inaccuracies may be pointed out at will and appreciated.

Did the PAF really evaluate the MiG-29 and Su-27 ??

The Typhoon is a logistical and political nightmare with four supplier countries.