Pakistan Air Force & "Second to None"

[Adux]

I not quite sure about that. The US, UK and France are the more active member of the NATO. Most European countries have no threat and no scope for military engagement. I would have expected some complacency. Indian, Pakistani pilots know that they could be in combat tommorrow so I'd expect higher motivation levels and training standards. But, then I'm just guessing.

One of the Main reasons indians are getting the HAWK is training makes all the difference, India wouldnt send pilots all the way to the UK if it is not worth it. The other European countries have a histroy, tradition and motivation to further their national goals. An Average Indian/Pakistani Pilot would be inferior to that of their european counterparts,They follow a very good training structure, which India is currently imploying.


Adu

 

[blain2]

I not quite sure about that. The US, UK and France are the more active members of the NATO. Most European countries have no threat and no scope for military engagement. I would have expected some complacency. Indian, Pakistani pilots know that they could be in combat tommorrow so I'd expect higher motivation levels and training standards. But, then I'm just guessing.

I am pretty sure about that just owing to the type of training going on currently for the US and NATO Airforces....you'd be surprised to know how much others like the Dutch, Norwegians etc., fly and train. I spoke to a USAF instructor a few months back who was responsible for training new US and NATO aircrews on the F-16 a while back (in the 80s), and his opinion was that because of similar training procedures and doctrines, the US and NATO pilots tend to do things better, however he did mention to me that at least his interaction with the Pakistani aircrews and Israelis was very enjoyable...one of the best ones outside of NATO....(he did not interact with Indians due to the nature of the program). He was the one who said that there are very good pilots sprinkled all around (India would obviously not be an exclusion from this rule).

PAF and IAF train very hard, however whereas there are quite a few excellent pilots serving these arms, a training system based on USAF/NATO lines would actually ensure that average pilots become better as well....PAF at least has been very impressed with US weapons school and would probably grow out CCS considerably in the near future.

 

[Thunder]

Iam not sure about a paksitani pilotbeing inforier to the NATO pilots since PAF training is up to NATO standards now that the US has lifed up it's sactions.

 

[Muradk]

An Average Indian/Pakistani Pilot would be inferior to that of their european counterparts,They follow a very good training structure, which India is currently imploying.


Adu

Adux this statement is little confusing : So you are saying that India is following their european counterparts but are still average.That is what the above statement says. The only advantage NATO and US has against India/Pakistan is Technology that is it. pilots from Indian and Pakistan Air Forces are far better than US and NATO.

 

[Muradk]

all around (India would obviously not be an exclusion from this rule).
.PAF at least has been very impressed with US weapons school and would probably grow out CCS considerably in the near future.

Blian how is PAF impressed with US Weapons School can you please tell us.

 

[Adux]

Adux this statement is little confusing : So you are saying that India is following their european counterparts but are still average.That is what the above statement says. The only advantage NATO and US has against India/Pakistan is Technology that is it. pilots from Indian and Pakistan Air Forces are far better than US and NATO.

They have the capability to integrate their piloting skills and technology to work in tandem, Something we dont have at the moment,,This has been the case for a long time Mostly cuz of using inferior planes and lack of trainers.Situational Awareness in modern combat is imperative.

I do believe at the present moment the capability of Indian pilots on an average will be lesser than that of european counterparts. After the induction of HAWK AJT, AWACS and True Data Integration i believe the average will go up. But we are working on them, I dont believe it is come to overnight.There has been vast improvements, but we are still short of them.Ground Attacks using LGB in kargil are one those improvements.

I wish my pilots were better than anyone. But i rather understand and acknowledge my weakness and improve myself.

 

[Adux]

Iam not sure about a paksitani pilotbeing inforier to the NATO pilots since PAF training is up to NATO standards now that the US has lifed up it's sactions.

Something PAk drivers dont have is a JEt trainer like HAWK or the t-45, Experience in using Beyond Visual Weapons and True Data Integration and Network Warfare.
I am sure the new F-16's AIM-120C's and Erieye will make very good impacts and improve their performance.

Piloting skills alone doesnt make a good pilot these days. The days of the Red Baron are over. Its all Electronics..lol

 

[blain2]

Blian how is PAF impressed with US Weapons School can you please tell us.

Its simply the most comprehensive weapons tactics and training program in the world!

ACM Mushaf visited Nellis AFB and had shown his interest in PAF introducing US weapons school methodology within PAF and we have been sending observers ever since to the various Flag exercises conducted by the USAF and also to other NATO exercises.

For your reading pleasure:

Pakistan air chief marshal visits Nellis
By Senior Airman Ruth
Curfman
AWFC Public Affairs
By invitation of Gen. John Jumper,
Air Force chief of staff, Pakistan’s Air
Chief Marshal Mushaf Ali Mir received
a tour of Nellis May 16 and 17.
ACM Mushaf assumed command
of the Pakistan air force on Nov. 20,
2000, and on the same date was promoted
to air chief marshal.
During the visit he toured the
flightline, received briefings from the
Air Warfare Center, Red Flag, U.S. Air
Force Weapons School and the
Thunderbirds.
ACM Mushaf said it will take time
to form a lasting relationship between
his country and the United States.
“Our relationship is in the rebuilding
stages,” he said. “I will be more
satisfied if it were rebuilt as soon as
possible with much longer and more
lasting ties.”
ACM Mushaf said there are many
benefits for both sides in rebuilding
the relationship.
Some of the benefits include better
political, economic and military relations.
“We hope to have more mutual
understandings and interests with the
United States,” said ACM Mushaf.
Some of the understandings and
interests we now share with Pakistan
include terrorism.
“This is a global evil and we have
got to fight it together,” said ACM
Mushaf. “We are also the victims. This
is very important to our country and
it is my government’s goal to support
America fully so global terrorism is
taken out from the entire world.”
This can’t be fixed in a short time
and Pakistan will need much more
support from America to combat terrorism.

ACM Mushaf said he would most
like to implement Weapons School
tactics into the Pakistan air force.
“I would like to review the new concepts
of the Weapons School in our
school in Pakistan,” said ACM
Mushaf. “We currently have a school
similar to Weapons School but it is
much smaller.”
In addition to the Weapons School,
ACM Mushaf would like to see his Air
Force participate in Red Flag exercises
with the United States.
“I would say we have very old, traditional
ways,” said ACM Mushaf. “I
would like to see our Air Force move
from the basic training we have to the
more advanced training of the United
States Air Force.”

Also, he would like more F-16’s,
and better versions than the ones he
has now; as well as refuelers, airborne
warning and control systems aircraft
and unmanned aerial vehicles.
“There is always a wish list,” he
said. That list has already been submitted
to the United States government.
“It will require a determined effort
of all players to succeed against this
global threat,” he said.
However, ACM Mushaf has faith in
the United States Air Force.
“I think it’s the best organization,
doing the best job by remaining very
focused, flexible and being able to
keep adopting new concepts,” said
ACM Mushaf. “Your people are doing
a super job. You are the Lords of
Evolution.”

Vol 52, No 21 issue of Bullseye

 

[blain2]

Something PAk drivers dont have is a JEt trainer like HAWK or the t-45, Experience in using Beyond Visual Weapons and True Data Integration and Network Warfare.
I am sure the new F-16's AIM-120C's and Erieye will make very good impacts and improve their performance.

Piloting skills alone doesnt make a good pilot these days. The days of the Red Baron are over. Its all Electronics..lol

I recommend you read up a bit more my friend. Pakistan has been training its pilots on AJTs for about 4 years now with the induction of K-8. Look at the flight parameters of the K-8 and you will figure out that its pretty close to what BAE Hawk offers. PAF cadets are getting the AJT at the PAF academy Risalpur.

In BVR, we are behind IAF, but its a short term lag...in terms of C4I, PAF is well ahead of the curve...I say this knowing a few things personally and working in the Telecom sector....the stuff that PAF has implemented internally is probably at par with what the JSDFAF has in place.

 

[Adux]

I recommend you read up a bit more my friend. Pakistan has been training its pilots on AJTs for about 4 years now with the induction of K-8. Look at the flight parameters of the K-8 and you will figure out that its pretty close to what BAE Hawk offers. PAF cadets are getting the AJT at the PAF academy Risalpur.

In BVR, we are behind IAF, but its a short term lag...in terms of C4I, PAF is well ahead of the curve...I say this knowing a few things personally and working in the Telecom sector....the stuff that PAF has implemented internally is probably at par with what the JSDFAF has in place.

hiya there blain

I am not a very technical guy, So forgive my ignorance various subjects,and I have been learning a quite few things from very learned members like you.So mostly i will be speaking in generals, but not in specifics.bear with me

ISnt K-8 on the lines of a Intermediate Jet Trainer, PAF was ahead , in lot of areas before, trust me i wont be suprised if they did catch up or even surpass.Otherwise where is the fun.lol. I have an uncle who is currently serving in the air force, according to him, the new C4I implemented by Tri Command in Andamans, which has a good integration with the 3 forces as well IAF internal is better than PAk forces.
I will not be suprised by it cuz Israeli help was very dominant in this field, including the americans/russians(not sure) with the nuclear control system. i will not be suprised again by next pakistan surpasses it.

Isnt that the whole game all about!!!! intresting times indeed

I

 

[Bull]

Indian Air Force is banned from this thread.

Please dont bring it, or lose it.​

is this an announcement?

Its better announcements such as this are made with some distingishable style so that we can diffrentiate it from an opinion.

 

[blain2]

hiya there blain

I am not a very technical guy, So forgive my ignorance various subjects,and I have been learning a quite few things from very learned members like you.So mostly i will be speaking in generals, but not in specifics.bear with me

ISnt K-8 on the lines of a Intermediate Jet Trainer, PAF was ahead , in lot of areas before, trust me i wont be suprised if they did catch up or even surpass.Otherwise where is the fun.lol. I have an uncle who is currently serving in the air force, according to him, the new C4I implemented by Tri Command in Andamans, which has a good integration with the 3 forces as well IAF internal is better than PAk forces.
I will not be suprised by it cuz Israeli help was very dominant in this field, including the americans/russians(not sure) with the nuclear control system. i will not be suprised again by next pakistan surpasses it.

Isnt that the whole game all about!!!! intresting times indeed

I

hey Adux,

I am learning here just like you my friend.

Pakistan Airforce uses US made T-37s (which are actually at the tail-end of their life) as IJTs. Prior to that, pilots go through Basic Flying Training on the MFI-17s (Swedish origin). Once done with T-37s, the pilots use to go to Chinese made FT-5s for jet fighter conversion.

With the induction of K-8 AJTs, T-37s and FT-5s are being withdrawn and the AF academy will start putting their intake through their paces onto K-8 AJT righter after BFT on the MFI-17. So hopefully you see the benefit of the lead-in with AJT early on and the roles that the K-8 will be fulfilling within the PAF.

****One thing to add...PAF Academy Risalpur already has approx 8 K-8 AJTs already for training Cadet Pilots.

On the C4I, I think you cannot compare the two airforces alike just because its information that is not openly available (mostly insider views)....like you said, I am sure IAF is investing in the C4I, I just know that PAF has been spending money on the C3I and then C4I for the past decade or so. Even Pakistan Army is in the process of spending to the tune of $200 million or so on a fiberoptic backbone based infrastructure to enhance its C4I capability. So my point of disagreement is about the statement made by you that Pakistan lacks net-centric capabilities....I know Pakistani armed forces are actually working really hard to get this capability in place and the PAF leads the pack as always.