Pakistan Air Force Mirages during the 1971 Air War

[chindit]

Although i haven't come across the book but i did contact Sajjad Haider on his face book, however i still await a reply.
As for the engagement, India initially claimed to have shot down three F-86s but it later transpired into as one Gnat and two Sabres going down.

You should get it. I think shebazi or someone recommended and I got the book from Pakistan .

as per haider, chadhary claimed to have shot down a Gnat - perhaps to cover the shame of losing his wingmen. When he reached the base he could not explain convincningly the loss. moreover the gun camera film showed "not a bird in the sky" and it became a butt of jokes for the PAF in dacca. no one in the PAF believed the gnat claim at all. But hey a war was on and they had to publicise it for propaganda.

Haider also writes that Inamul Haq unwisely gave Chadhary some medal (SJ?) and that the rest of the pilots resented it.

When the full fledged war came, the CO did not fly any missions and instead decided to "man" the situation room, thus leaving all the flying to his No.2 man Dilawar.

After evactuation to peshawar, 14 sqn now on F-6s came under command of haider as the base commander. chadhary came to haider and asked to be posted out because the otehr pilots were making life hell for him. anticipating some kind of a riot/mutiny situation, haider posted chaudary out.

anyways that the PAF gnat claim for you.

on the indian side, all the four gnat pilots came back safe. their stories are told and have been told multiple times.

 

[Windjammer]

^^^^^^^^^

A keen historian would raise many questions on claims and counter claims. One would be that how and where did Sajad Haider viewed the gun camera footage as it's on record that Dilawar who had all the record and log books of the squadron lost every thing while haphazardly withdrawing via Burma. And as you stated, on the Indian side all the Gnats returned safely. This obviously being the claim of Indian MOD.
Now allow me to take you back a little, to this day the Indian MOD has been denying M.M. Alam's claim of shooting down five Hunters on 7th September 1965. This despite all the gun camera evidence and Alam's wing man reports. PAF went all the way and proved it's claim with the following,

Indian Air Force pilots shot down during M.M. Alam's historic victory.

1: Sqn Ldr. O.N. Kacher,
2: Sqn Ldr. A.B. Deveyya,
3: Sqn Ldr. S.B. Bhagwat,
4: Flt Lt. B. Guha,
5: Flg Off. J.S. Brar.

Among these only the first-mentioned survived.
Now is the Indian Defence Ministry prepared to disown the names of it's personal.

 

[FulcrumD]

For the last time Windjammer,please note this claim has no base at all,M.M.Alam did not shoot 5 ACs on the same day,this claim has been rubbished by Kaiser Tufail,even John Fricker(the lifafa Journo)was sceptical about the claim,this story was floated to beef up the morale of your countrymen,end of story,if u want I can give you detailed account of the attack on Sargodha.

 

[Windjammer]

For the last time Windjammer,please note this claim has no base at all,M.M.Alam did not shoot 5 ACs on the same day,this claim has been rubbished by Kaiser Tufail,even John Fricker(the lifafa Journo)was sceptical about the claim,this story was floated to beef up the morale of your countrymen,end of story,if u want I can give you detailed account of the attack on Sargodha.

In fact it was John Fricker who searched and obtained and then released the names of the above pilots. Thank You.

 

[chindit]

^^^^^^^^^

A keen historian would raise many questions on claims and counter claims. One would be that how and where did Sajad Haider viewed the gun camera footage as it's on record that Dilawar who had all the record and log books of the squadron lost every thing while haphazardly withdrawing via Burma. And as you stated, on the Indian side all the Gnats returned safely. This obviously being the claim of Indian MOD.
Now allow me to take you back a little, to this day the Indian MOD has been denying M.M. Alam's claim of shooting down five Hunters on 7th September 1965. This despite all the gun camera evidence and Alam's wing man reports. PAF went all the way and proved it's claim with the following,

Indian Air Force pilots shot down during M.M. Alam's historic victory.

1: Sqn Ldr. O.N. Kacher,
2: Sqn Ldr. A.B. Deveyya,
3: Sqn Ldr. S.B. Bhagwat,
4: Flt Lt. B. Guha,
5: Flg Off. J.S. Brar.

Among these only the first-mentioned survived.
Now is the Indian Defence Ministry prepared to disown the names of it's personal.

I think you can do better than quote John Frickers letter from 1969.

For example. start with reading the book "Great Combat of the PAF" from which you have posted the gnat chapter in another thread. That book has an article "Alam's speed shooting classic" that thoroughly debunks the claim of five hunters on 7 Sept 65. I dont even need to quote any Indian sources for it.

One would be that how and where did Sajad Haider viewed the gun camera footage as it's on record that Dilawar who had all the record and log books of the squadron lost every thing while haphazardly withdrawing via Burma

you said you were in contact with him so its better you ask him directly.

In all fairness in the book, He does say that it was the pilots who told him this. He did not see it directly. But I find no reason to doubt sajad haider's version of Chadhary and his claims if thats what the pilots told him.

 

[chindit]

,this claim has been rubbished by Kaiser Tufail, .

exactly. Infact sajad haider goes one step forward and even debunks the fact that alam shot down kacker. as per him, alam could have shot down only two hunters that day.

 

[Windjammer]

I think you can do better than quote John Frickers letter from 1969.




you said you were in contact with him so its better you ask him directly.

In all fairness in the book, He does say that it was the pilots who told him this. He did not see it directly. But I find no reason to doubt sajad haider's version of Chadhary and his claims if thats what the pilots told him.

Firstly i am unaware of any Letter that you mention, the detail i posted appeared in Air Enthusiast Magazine.
As i said in my earlier post, i did make queries to Sajjad Haider, but i await reply.
Since you guys are of opinion that the whole exercise was a moral boaster, one wonders, where and how did the "speed shooting" accomplishment originated from. They say, where there is smoke, there is fire.

 

[chindit]

you guys are of opinion that the whole exercise was a moral boaster, one wonders, where and how did the "speed shooting" accomplishment originated from. They say, where there is smoke, there is fire.

Alam shooting down two Hunters (or three ) in one combat is praiseworthy. I have no doubts. I dont dispute.

However to maintain it was "five Hunters in 30 seconds" even after forty years have elapsed and new information has come to light, and which even PAF Air Commodores (Haider and Tufail) themselve insist is wrong is simply something I cannot understand.

 

[Super Falcon]

wow at that time we had mirages

 

[Windjammer]

Alam shooting down two Hunters (or three ) in one combat is praiseworthy. I have no doubts. I dont dispute.

However to maintain it was "five Hunters in 30 seconds" even after forty years have elapsed and new information has come to light, and which even PAF Air Commodores (Haider and Tufail) themselve insist is wrong is simply something I cannot understand.

I think you will find that Kaiser Tufail does mention and credits M M Alam in his publishings.