Pakistan Air Force builds for the future

[R Wing]

Yep as of May 2019, the CAS didn't say who the partner would/could be. However, the general consensus is that it will either be China or Turkey. I think it'll be China. I can't think of a reason to look away from the fact that China has a working technology demonstrator in the J-31v2. That's a huge plus as it eliminates a lot of risk and difficulty in securing a FGFA in an acceptable timeframe (around 2030s).

We should at least test the J31 and see if it can be used as a foundation to develop an economical 5th gen platform.

 

[fhk86khan1]

I do not think PAF will buy any 5th generation platform from China for the foreseeable future, for a few reasons;

1. Economy cannot sustain purchasing a 5th generation fighter and the ecosystem it requires

2. PAF would not want to push the Indians towards a similar purchase. They have more funds and the indian hawks using their radical media will cry and moan until India at the very least numerically matches our purchase or exceeds it.

3. Diversifying funds into multiple domains can actually make PAF stronger. Instead of investing in a golden egg...PAF can continue to develop jf17, purchase AWACs, improve their air defence capabilities, purchase additional surveillance and attack drones and continue to invest in building core competencies via project AZM...purchase of a 5th generation fighter will cause severe roll back of these projects due to reprioritization.

Lastly, PAF is aware that the J31 or even a variant of the J20 will be available to PAF should they seriously pursue it...so why the rush?

 

[Shabi1]

I do not think PAF will buy any 5th generation platform from China for the foreseeable future, for a few reasons;

1. Economy cannot sustain purchasing a 5th generation fighter and the ecosystem it requires

2. PAF would not want to push the Indians towards a similar purchase. They have more funds and the indian hawks using their radical media will cry and moan until India at the very least numerically matches our purchase or exceeds it.

3. Diversifying funds into multiple domains can actually make PAF stronger. Instead of investing in a golden egg...PAF can continue to develop jf17, purchase AWACs, improve their air defence capabilities, purchase additional surveillance and attack drones and continue to invest in building core competencies via project AZM...purchase of a 5th generation fighter will cause severe roll back of these projects due to reprioritization.

Lastly, PAF is aware that the J31 or even a variant of the J20 will be available to PAF should they seriously pursue it...so why the rush?

Pretty obvious that PAF plans on inducting one platform at a time. So the Azm is something which comes once all planned JF-17s inducted. Either Chinese or a mix, its still at least 5yrs away.

 

[Armchair]

I actually think this and the latter interview are not contradictory. This is why:

1. The PAF chief is saying they won't be dependent on any partners - this does not mean they won't cooperate with them, rather it means it won't be like the JF-17 where they were dependant on the Chinese partner to develop the aircraft.

2. This means that the PAF is developing the infrastructure needed - the fabrication backbone that @messiach kept talking about and this is being developed in the aviation city.

3. This definitely means that PAF is more visionary than just putting a Pak flag on the J-31 and is NOT going that route - which would have led to a step back after the JFT and a complete destruction of future Pakistani aviation industry.

4. Messiach stated to understand the Azm, we need to look at the Block 3. This possibly suggests Azm will be an evolution of the JF-17 - using the AESA radar and advanced EW, comms, data links, IFF, etc, and repackaging it into a new stealthier airframe.

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

Does it mean there is no partner decided till May 2019?

Just because the partner has not selected, doesn't mean PAF has not been working on the project.

We should at least test the J31 and see if it can be used as a foundation to develop an economical 5th gen platform.

Obviously, they've researched on the feasibility of the project for years with a holistic view, hence, they launched the project in the first place.

 

[khansaheeb]

Only thing we are asking PAF to build is their own jet engines and advanced sensors. Not too much to ask for.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

We should at least test the J31 and see if it can be used as a foundation to develop an economical 5th gen platform.

Yep. To be honest though, China is in a better situation to make that judgment than us. China was the one who had developed the J-31v2 demonstrator, we didn't. So, we'd have to follow China's lead/advice on whether transitioning it to the next step is tenable or not. If AVIC moves it further along, we'll probably join in.

I do not think PAF will buy any 5th generation platform from China for the foreseeable future, for a few reasons;

1. Economy cannot sustain purchasing a 5th generation fighter and the ecosystem it requires

2. PAF would not want to push the Indians towards a similar purchase. They have more funds and the indian hawks using their radical media will cry and moan until India at the very least numerically matches our purchase or exceeds it.

3. Diversifying funds into multiple domains can actually make PAF stronger. Instead of investing in a golden egg...PAF can continue to develop jf17, purchase AWACs, improve their air defence capabilities, purchase additional surveillance and attack drones and continue to invest in building core competencies via project AZM...purchase of a 5th generation fighter will cause severe roll back of these projects due to reprioritization.

Lastly, PAF is aware that the J31 or even a variant of the J20 will be available to PAF should they seriously pursue it...so why the rush?

Yep. It's unclear to us whether the PAF will continue with JF-17 development, or totally pivot to the FGFA.

There are many potential outcomes, e.g:

1. CAC and PAC continue improving the JF-17 (e.g., add a new engine, lighten the weight, etc) while PAC/AvRID opt to spend 15-20 years developing the tech for a 5+/6-gen fighter. In those 15-20 years, we add new JF-17 variants.

2. The PAF opts to induct the FC-31s in the 2030s so that it can supplant the Mirages (too old) and older F-16 MLUs (which we can't SLEP due to borked Pak-US ties), and works on its own NGFA tech in parallel for a 5+/6-gen fighter in the 2040s.

3. It closes up the JF-17 after Block-III. Buys a bunch of J-10CEs from China. Joins the Turkish TF-X without too much worry about risks and delays (due to it having the J-10CE).

4. The PAF joins the TF-X, but in the mean time, continues working with CAC on improving the JF-17 via a Block-IV, Block-V, etc, and induct those new variants until the TF-X is ready.

5. Takes a page from HAL and basically re-designs the JF-17 into a larger, lighter, etc aircraft like Tejas Mk2. As far as engineers are concerned, it'd basically be JF-17 in name, but a different fighter. This comes in the 2030s, but the PAF partners with Turkey on the TF-X for a total NGFA solution in the 2040s.

 

[Akh1112]

Only thing we are asking PAF to build is their own jet engines and advanced sensors. Not too much to ask for.

"not too much to ask for" lol. I hope you do mean build and not design.

 

[Incog_nito]

Pakistan Air Force builds for the future
​

Published in Show Daily 2018 - Day 1
By |Alan Warnes |January 10, 2019

View attachment 653397
PAF Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan took over in March this year. (Alan Warnes) ​

Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan, Chief of the Air Staff (CAS), talks to IDEAS show daily correspondent Alan Warnes.
​

Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force (PAF) knows a thing about pressure. He previously served as the Assistant Chief of Air Staff (Operations) which is probably the second most demanding job in the PAF.

The PAF is on a constant state of alert along all of its borders. In the west, it has been supporting the Army against the terrorists Pakistan is trying to eliminate, while on the northern, eastern and southern boundaries comes a threat from its bigger neighbours.

There have been two wars with India and several serious stand-offs since Pakistan was founded in 1947 and the threats are growing more sophisticated through newer technologies.

The CAS’ role is to provide stability, leadership and vision for the PAF, which is regarded as one of the most professional air forces in the region. “My main role is to ensure continuity of policies and operational preparedness,” he explained at the Zhuhai Air Show in early November.

”But I am trying to build a broader and longer vision – Building a Next Generation PAF for 2047 when the PAF will be 100 years old”.

Next Generation Fighter
Spearheading that vision is the development of a 5th Generation aircraft. “We can’t afford to lag behind others”.

Regional stability is undoubtedly the focus of his concern. “The geo-political and geo-strategic situation means that we have to maintain a strategic balance in the region and we need to be build it up now”.

We know that when other countries have inducted new generation fighter aircraft, they have been badly prepared for the training. Developing a new generation aircraft is always a difficult proposition, but over the years the PAF has succeeded in facing these challenges.

“I want to make sure that we have certain potent capacities and capabilities right across our aircraft, battle systems and our training too. Education will play a big part in that. It might seem a long time away but with technologies continuing to evolve at such a fast pace we have to remain focused on what that could be."

The PAF has been working on a 5th Generation fighter for almost a year now and it is likely to take at least a couple of years before it is flying. “It is indigenous at this time – we will be self-reliant and not dependent upon western or eastern partners”.

That is a tall task, considering the Chinese have struggled to develop indigenous power plants for their own fighters, but the Chief is adamant and aware of the huge challenges the PAF faces on this project. It will of course have to be ITAR-free, because Pakistan has suffered so many times in the past from United States sanctions.

“It will be collaborated with private industry and our academia. Our Aviation City is being built up now, that will one day work towards building a brighter future for our aerospace industry. Aviation education is almost non-existent in Pakistan and we need to fix that. We are setting up our own aviation hub and now formulating our vision which will cover manufacturing facilities and laboratories”.

“We have recently opened up a new university too, albeit in a make-shift location and we will link all of this to developing our own 5th Generation fighter and commercial aircraft”.

Training
Right now the PAF fulfils its training requirements on the elderly Cessna T-37 and Hongdu K-8s. But the Chief needs something more modern. “We are upgrading the T-37s with a glass cockpit, just as we have the Super Mushshak previously”.

That’s the futuristic approach – we have to adapt them to our needs. It’s the first step.

“For future lead-in fighter training, we have evaluated certain aircraft which included the Hongdu L-15 and Leonardo M346. There might be shortfalls in some aircraft, but if they can fulfil our air staff requirements”.

View attachment 653398
The Chief’s predecessor, Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman flew in the Leonardo M346 before he retired, to look at the jet-trainer’s capabilities as a LIFT. (Leonardo)
​

“Pakistan is a third-world country, and it might not have the same resources and finances that others might have in the region. So when the PAF does evaluate something, it is evaluated thoroughly”.

Everyone in the industry knows that the PAF are hard taskmasters, and if they want to sell to the PAF, it will evaluated from every angle. “But once we have bought something, the companies are usually very keen to market our acquisition”.

On the future, the CAS finished, “We know where we are going and we know what we need to get there”.


View attachment 653399
Alan Warnes
Alan has travelled to over 60 countries writing/taking photos of military aircraft and enjoying the many cultures he has encountered. Since 2001 has been a regular visitor to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). He has written two books on the PAF. @warnesyworld

M-345 & M-346 both are very potent trainers that can boost PAF training. A small batch of 50 each can make a very big difference for PAF training.

 

[python-000]

J-31C is the best option for PAF...

 

[_NOBODY_]

Yep. To be honest though, China is in a better situation to make that judgment than us. China was the one who had developed the J-31v2 demonstrator, we didn't. So, we'd have to follow China's lead/advice on whether transitioning it to the next step is tenable or not. If AVIC moves it further along, we'll probably join in.


Yep. It's unclear to us whether the PAF will continue with JF-17 development, or totally pivot to the FGFA.

There are many potential outcomes, e.g:

1. CAC and PAC continue improving the JF-17 (e.g., add a new engine, lighten the weight, etc) while PAC/AvRID opt to spend 15-20 years developing the tech for a 5+/6-gen fighter. In those 15-20 years, we add new JF-17 variants.

2. The PAF opts to induct the FC-31s in the 2030s so that it can supplant the Mirages (too old) and older F-16 MLUs (which we can't SLEP due to borked Pak-US ties), and works on its own NGFA tech in parallel for a 5+/6-gen fighter in the 2040s.

3. It closes up the JF-17 after Block-III. Buys a bunch of J-10CEs from China. Joins the Turkish TF-X without too much worry about risks and delays (due to it having the J-10CE).

4. The PAF joins the TF-X, but in the mean time, continues working with CAC on improving the JF-17 via a Block-IV, Block-V, etc, and induct those new variants until the TF-X is ready.

5. Takes a page from HAL and basically re-designs the JF-17 into a larger, lighter, etc aircraft like Tejas Mk2. As far as engineers are concerned, it'd basically be JF-17 in name, but a different fighter. This comes in the 2030s, but the PAF partners with Turkey on the TF-X for a total NGFA solution in the 2040s.

I don't see Pakistan ever joining TFX program simply due to the politics that will revolve around its engine. If Turkey chooses American engine then it will be impossible for PAF to their hands on it, if they choose EJ-200 the chances are still low. If they use Japanese engine chances of getting them are even are lower than that of EJ-200 and I don't see them going for a Russian engine. Mirages which are our dedicated strike aircrafts(bomb trucks) will need to be replaced by another much more capable and easy to maintain strike aircraft. The only solid replacement for the mirages is J-10C considering the point mentioned earlier. Whatever 5th gen platform we get our hands on will probably replace old F-16s first as the new main frontline fighter. Old JF-17s can be replaced by new ones as time goes on and the old blocks can be sold to the existing JF-17 customers like Nigeria and Myanmar.
@The Eagle @Deino What is your opinion on it.

 

[The Eagle]

I don't see Pakistan ever joining TFX program simply due to the politics that will revolve around its engine. If Turkey chooses American engine then it will be impossible for PAF to their hands on it, if they choose EJ-200 the chances are still low. If they use Japanese engine chances of getting them are even are lower than that of EJ-200 and I don't see them going for a Russian engine. Mirages which are our dedicated strike aircrafts(bomb trucks) will need to be replaced by another much more capable and easy to maintain strike aircraft. The only solid replacement for the mirages is J-10C considering the point mentioned earlier. Whatever 5th gen platform we get our hands on will probably replace old F-16s first as the new main frontline fighter. Old JF-17s can be replaced by new ones as time goes on and the old blocks can be sold to the existing JF-17 customers like Nigeria and Myanmar.
@The Eagle @Deino What is your opinion on it.

In short I will say what CAS told years ago... It has to be ITAR free. . . . We want freedom... independent.

 

[_NOBODY_]

In short I will say what CAS told years ago... It has to be ITAR free. . . . We want freedom... independent.

Which is why TFX is impossible due to its engine politics.

 

[Deino]

I don't see Pakistan ever joining TFX program simply due to the politics that will revolve around its engine. If Turkey chooses American engine then it will be impossible for PAF to their hands on it, if they choose EJ-200 the chances are still low. If they use Japanese engine chances of getting them are even are lower than that of EJ-200 and I don't see them going for a Russian engine. Mirages which are our dedicated strike aircrafts(bomb trucks) will need to be replaced by another much more capable and easy to maintain strike aircraft. The only solid replacement for the mirages is J-10C considering the point mentioned earlier. Whatever 5th gen platform we get our hands on will probably replace old F-16s first as the new main frontline fighter. Old JF-17s can be replaced by new ones as time goes on and the old blocks can be sold to the existing JF-17 customers like Nigeria and Myanmar.
@The Eagle @Deino What is your opinion on it.

Spot on!

 

[Indos]

I don't see Pakistan ever joining TFX program simply due to the politics that will revolve around its engine. If Turkey chooses American engine then it will be impossible for PAF to their hands on it, if they choose EJ-200 the chances are still low. If they use Japanese engine chances of getting them are even are lower than that of EJ-200 and I don't see them going for a Russian engine. Mirages which are our dedicated strike aircrafts(bomb trucks) will need to be replaced by another much more capable and easy to maintain strike aircraft. The only solid replacement for the mirages is J-10C considering the point mentioned earlier. Whatever 5th gen platform we get our hands on will probably replace old F-16s first as the new main frontline fighter. Old JF-17s can be replaced by new ones as time goes on and the old blocks can be sold to the existing JF-17 customers like Nigeria and Myanmar.
@The Eagle @Deino What is your opinion on it.

Your F16 uses American engine