Pakistan adding submarine muscle while India hems and haws

[StingRoy]

Pakistan adding submarine muscle while India hems and haws

NEW DELHI: Even as India dithers in even finalizing its new submarine programme called " Project-75 India", Pakistan has moved swiftly to seal a deal with China to acquire six advanced submarines equipped with crucial air-independent propulsion (AIP) systems.

Conventional diesel-electric submarines have to surface or snorkel every few days to get oxygen to recharge their batteries. But those fitted with AIP can stay submerged for much longer periods to significantly boost their stealth and combat capabilities, somewhat narrowing the gap with nuclear-powered submarines which of course can operate underwater for virtually unlimited periods.

While India is still years away from getting an AIP-equipped submarine, Pakistan already has one in the shape of PNS Hamza, one of the three French Agosta-90B submarines inducted by it over the last decade. Moreover, work is also underway to retrofit the French "Mesma" AIP in hulls of the other two submarines, PNS Khalid and PNS Saad.

The six new-generation submarines from China, the improved Yuan-class boats with "Stirling-cycle" AIP, will further add a punch to Pakistan's underwater warfare capabilities.

India, in sharp contrast, has so far refused to consider the Mesma AIP option in the ongoing Rs 23,562-crore project (P-75) to build six French Scorpene submarines at Mazagon Docks (MDL), already running three years' behind schedule with the boats now slated to roll out from 2015 to 2020.

"There has also been a huge cost escalation. To incorporate the steam-based Mesma AIP in the 5th and 6th Scorpenes would cost another $100 million or so," said a senior defence ministry official.

"Moreover, Navy is more keen on fuel-cell AIP. DRDO is developing one such system, which has been tested on shore. If it comes through, it can be considered for the 5th and 6th Scorpenes," he added.

To further compound matters, there is excruciatingly slow progress on P-75I, which envisages acquisition of six new stealth submarines, equipped with both tube-launched missiles for land-attack capabilities as well as AIP, for over Rs 50,000 crore.

The RFP (request for proposal) to be issued to foreign collaborators like Rosoboronexport ( Russia), DCNS (France), HDW (Germany) and Navantia (Spain) will be possible only towards end-2011 at the earliest.

"If one foreign shipyard can give AIP, it cannot provide land-attack missile capabilities, and vice-versa. So, P-75I is very complex...it will take at least two years to even finalize it, and another six-seven years after that for the first submarine to be ready," he said.

The plan till now is to directly import two submarines from a foreign collaborator, with three being built at MDL in Mumbai, and the sixth at Hindustan Shipyard in Visakhapatnam under transfer of technology.

Incidentally, Navy will have only five of its existing 10 Russian Kilo-class and four German HDW submarines by 2020. Consequently, even with the six Scorpenes, India will be far short of its operational requirement of at least 18 conventional submarines for the foreseeable future.

 

[axisofevil]

India is moving too slow....look at everything....damn babus...its not so much the fault of this particular administration, though there is blame no one can deny. But the issue is successive administrations have been in a state of comatose when it comes to defense acquisitions.

 

[Frankenstein]

I smell TOI

 

[raveolution]

There will be a gap of almost 15 years (1999 - 2013) when no new submarine would be inducted into the Navy. This would obviously lead to a shorfall in fleet numbers. However the IN has taken steps to correct this and provided there are no delays by the MoD or the Bureaucracy, the IN submarine fleet will look like this in 2020.

4 Type 212 HDW - Details of possible upgrade being discussed
10 Kilo Class - Some have undergone mid-life refit and the others are in progress. Will serve the navy until 2020-2030 by the end of which it will be completely phased out.
6 Scorpene Class - Will be inducted from 2015-2021 at the rate of one per year.
6 Project 75 I - Details are being finalised. Planned induction from 2018-2022.
3 Arihant Class SSBN's - The first INS Arihant will be inducted by 2012-13 with the other two planned for delivery in 2016 and 2018 respectively.
3 Arihant derived SSN's - 3 SSN's based on the Arihant class ships are due to begin construction from 2015 onwards.
2 Akula 2 Class SSN's - India is due to receive 2 Akula 2 class SSN's in 2011 and 2013 respectively for a period of 10 years on lease with an option to buy.

In conclusion by 2020, the IN should have a fleet size of almost 25 submarines, a mix of 15 new and 10 upgraded subs, which would pack a potent punch. Sources to the timeline may be found individually on each submarine fact page.

 

[Spring Onion]

Another attempt to buy more military hardware by India. Indian Navy is heavily equipped and buying more than us including nuclear subs while we even dont have one reasonable for our defence

 

[Skull and Bones]

Waiting for the breakthrough in this technology.

Moreover, Navy is more keen on fuel-cell AIP. DRDO is developing one such system, which has been tested on shore.

This will make our subs the stealthiest.

 

[Laughing_soldier]

Waiting for the breakthrough in this technology.

This will make our subs the stealthiest.

DRDO tested fuelcell AIP.

so after nuclear submarines should we get some indigenous AIP submarines?

 

[Laughing_soldier]

DRDO working on system to cut submarine vulnerability
S. Anandan

The Hindu : News / National : DRDO working on system to cut submarine vulnerability

J. Narayana Das, DRDO's Chief Controller, Research and Development (Naval Systems, Materials and Human Resources).


Work is apace at the Defence Research and Development Organisation's Naval Materials Research Laboratory at Ambernath in Maharashtra on developing a land-based prototype plug, and subsequently an engineered, operational version of an Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) system that will significantly cut the ‘indiscretion rate' of diesel and electric submarines.

The ‘indiscretion rate' is the percentage of time a submarine spends snorting when it is most vulnerable.

By eliminating the need for conventional submarines to frequently resurface for recharging batteries by breathing in air, it would considerably enhance their sub-surface endurance.

Talking to The Hindu here recently, J. Narayana Das, DRDO's Chief Controller, Research and Development (Naval Systems, Materials and Human Resources), said the Navy was satisfied with the DRDO's proposal. “We are first having a land-based demonstrator. And, as we progress, we will concurrently start an engineered version because engineering anything for a submarine platform is a completely different ballgame.”

(Incidentally, The Hindu has learnt from sources in the Navy that it has asked the DRDO to come up with a fully engineered fuel cell AIP by 2014 for possible use in the last two of the six Scorpene submarines being built in Mumbai's Mazagaon Dock. The Navy has also given sanction for the land-based prototype AIP in August this year.)

Asked about the recent offer of French defence major DCNS to install its MESMA AIP in the last two Scorpenes, Mr. Das said he wouldn't want to commit on the platform that would have the indigenous AIP fitted. “It depends on which platform will be ready and which will come in then.”

With the Navy

“We are working in tandem with the Navy as we don't have any other customer for the project. It will be ready in four to five years from now. The technology development is going on, and at an appropriate time, we will start marinisation and engineering for submarine quality. We are going to have industrial partners with us... Whatever we install will be on an operational submarine,” Mr. Das said.

Safety ensured

Explaining the technologies available for improving the sub-surface endurance of conventional submarines, he said the AIP being developed by the DRDO also ensured a higher level of safety to the submarine.

“In our technology, we generate hydrogen online on an as-needed basis. If you need more hydrogen when you are going fast, you produce more hydrogen and if you need less hydrogen, you produce less of it. The policy is ‘do not store hydrogen on board,' which ensures a higher level of safety to the platform. Also, we use fuel cells of a different type — phosphoric acid fuel cells — as they can tolerate slightly impure hydrogen. This is because when you produce hydrogen on board, you cannot have very pure hydrogen whereas other companies making fuel cell-based AIP are using PEM (proton exchange membrane) fuel cell, which necessitates hydrogen to be of ‘five-nines' quality, meaning 99.999 percent pure,” he said.

Hydrogen

“The AIP developed by the DCNS, on the contrary, worked on combustion of fuel using a steam turbine and producing electricity,” Mr. Das said. “Some other companies are using fuel cells themselves. They keep hydrogen stored on board. But if you want to be underwater for longer durations, you need larger quantities of hydrogen. Oxygen is required, but both systems use oxygen which is stored as [cryogenic] liquid oxygen…. And when you talk of a submarine's power system, the hydrogen you need is in the order of a couple of tonnes. Further, it has to be carried either in metal hydrides or in compressed cylinders. But high-pressure hydrogen is a potential explosive hazard.”

 

[Skull and Bones]

Edited........................

 

[tallboy123]

Well pakistan is buying subs!!!,Navy needs to counter these...more order of P8i's and Nuke submarine inductions should be made fast...
I hope this report is read by our du mb a s s politicians

 

[sancho]

There will be a gap of almost 15 years (1999 - 2013) when no new submarine would be inducted into the Navy. This would obviously lead to a shorfall in fleet numbers. However the IN has taken steps to correct this and provided there are no delays by the MoD or the Bureaucracy, the IN submarine fleet will look like this in 2020.

4 Type 212 HDW - Details of possible upgrade being discussed
10 Kilo Class - Some have undergone mid-life refit and the others are in progress. Will serve the navy until 2020-2030 by the end of which it will be completely phased out.
6 Scorpene Class - Will be inducted from 2015-2021 at the rate of one per year.
6 Project 75 I - Details are being finalised. Planned induction from 2018-2022.
3 Arihant Class SSBN's - The first INS Arihant will be inducted by 2012-13 with the other two planned for delivery in 2016 and 2018 respectively.
3 Arihant derived SSN's - 3 SSN's based on the Arihant class ships are due to begin construction from 2015 onwards.
2 Akula 2 Class SSN's - India is due to receive 2 Akula 2 class SSN's in 2011 and 2013 respectively for a period of 10 years on lease with an option to buy.

In conclusion by 2020, the IN should have a fleet size of almost 25 submarines, a mix of 15 new and 10 upgraded subs, which would pack a potent punch. Sources to the timeline may be found individually on each submarine fact page.

Some corrections, IN has 4 german U209 subs and they will be replaced together with the 2 last Foxtrot class submarines by the 6 new Scorpenes. The recent news about German upgrades was about upgrades for the Kilo class subs and not the U209.
The Germans had offered an upgrade with their fuel cell AIP and new U214 subs in the earlier competition, that the Scorpene won and according to reports from that time, IN had issues with the fuel cell AIP in terms of safety, which makes it strange that DRDO now develops exactly that kind of a propulsion.
PN while in general beeing not a match for IN, has undeniably an advantage at subs with AIP, what makes them to a big threat to our western coastline. Dectecting them in such an large area is difficult even without AIP and with 3 Agosta and 6 new, they will have even equal numbers to IN (2 Scorpenes and 6 new subs, which are still not ordered). IN might have gone for Scorpenes in favour for ToT of nuclear subs, which the Germans couldn't offer, but made a big mistake by delaying the 2nd order so much.
In this regard you can't count SSBNs, because they will not be used to hunt other submarines, but for a tactical role in the nuclear triade. Also only 1 Akula is fixed so far, while the other one was rumored only and with SSNs mainly be deployed to the carrier groups as escorts, IN will remain with Kilo, Scorpene and the 2nd order of conventional subs for costal defense, which is by far too less for such a huge costline.
It seems they concentrate on SSBNs and SSNs in regard to China and want to divert the ASW roles to surface vessels and MPA like P8I only. Not a good idea imo!

 

[raveolution]

Some corrections, IN has 4 german U209 subs and they will be replaced together with the 2 last Foxtrot class submarines by the 6 new Scorpenes. The recent news about German upgrades was about upgrades for the Kilo class subs and not the U209.
The Germans had offered an upgrade with their fuel cell AIP and new U214 subs in the earlier competition, that the Scorpene won and according to reports from that time, IN had issues with the fuel cell AIP in terms of safety, which makes it strange that DRDO now develops exactly that kind of a propulsion.
PN while in general beeing not a match for IN, has undeniably an advantage at subs with AIP, what makes them to a big threat to our western coastline. Dectecting them in such an large area is difficult even without AIP and with 3 Agosta and 6 new, they will have even equal numbers to IN (2 Scorpenes and 6 new subs, which are still not ordered). IN might have gone for Scorpenes in favour for ToT of nuclear subs, which the Germans couldn't offer, but made a big mistake by delaying the 2nd order so much.
In this regard you can't count SSBNs, because they will not be used to hunt other submarines, but for a tactical role in the nuclear triade. Also only 1 Akula is fixed so far, while the other one was rumored only and with SSNs mainly be deployed to the carrier groups as escorts, IN will remain with Kilo, Scorpene and the 2nd order of conventional subs for costal defense, which is by far too less for such a huge costline.
It seems they concentrate on SSBNs and SSNs in regard to China and want to divert the ASW roles to surface vessels and MPA like P8I only. Not a good idea imo!

Correction they indeed are the U-209's n not the 212"s. However the upgrade package is for these subs and not for the Kilo Class subs.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...-germany-upgrade-hdw-vessel-capabilities.html

After this upgrade, they will be expected to remain in service until 2025-2030, since the last was purchased close to 1990.

Most of the Kilo Class submarines have already undergone their MLR which will upgrade them to Project 08773 standard which includes a complete overhaul of major systems and addition of the Klub ASCM. These will be expected to serve till 2025 as well.

However, the point that you made is very valid that India needs to integrate AIP on a priority basis. As of now, only the last 3 Scorpene's and the Project 75I subs will have it.

I think the IN has some very potent surface ships with specialised ASW roles and the addition of the P8I will only make it better. Till then lets cross our fingers.

 

[TOPGUN]

What is the damn big deal... we are buying these to set some sort defence offset one can't compare the two navies if put side to side IN is 3 times size of PN simply why make a damn fuzz about it get over it and move on.

 

[sancho]

What is the damn big deal... we are buying these to set some sort defence offset one can't compare the two navies if put side to side IN is 3 times size of PN simply why make a damn fuzz about it get over it and move on.

True, but these subs pose a threat, because IN made mistakes in the modernisation of their own sub fleet.

 

[SR 71 Blackbird]

There will be a gap of almost 15 years (1999 - 2013) when no new submarine would be inducted into the Navy. This would obviously lead to a shorfall in fleet numbers. However the IN has taken steps to correct this and provided there are no delays by the MoD or the Bureaucracy, the IN submarine fleet will look like this in 2020.

4 Type 212 HDW - Details of possible upgrade being discussed
10 Kilo Class - Some have undergone mid-life refit and the others are in progress. Will serve the navy until 2020-2030 by the end of which it will be completely phased out.
6 Scorpene Class - Will be inducted from 2015-2021 at the rate of one per year.
6 Project 75 I - Details are being finalised. Planned induction from 2018-2022.
3 Arihant Class SSBN's - The first INS Arihant will be inducted by 2012-13 with the other two planned for delivery in 2016 and 2018 respectively.
3 Arihant derived SSN's - 3 SSN's based on the Arihant class ships are due to begin construction from 2015 onwards.
2 Akula 2 Class SSN's - India is due to receive 2 Akula 2 class SSN's in 2011 and 2013 respectively for a period of 10 years on lease with an option to buy.

In conclusion by 2020, the IN should have a fleet size of almost 25 submarines, a mix of 15 new and 10 upgraded subs, which would pack a potent punch. Sources to the timeline may be found individually on each submarine fact page.

What about the 12000 tonne arihant follow on SSBN's.