This exchange is turning into something that is unsavory. I try to steer clear of debates. But let me delve a little deeper into the discussion which promises to turn into a debate. Gulp.
But one certainly needs respite from beating oneself down into mud in the name of criticism. Has anything ever come out of cynicism & pessimism?
Depends agar kissi ko sharam agi tou phir dubara nai keray...so I guess depends...
Other reason is clear disagreement!
Irrelevant! Common man means less than average earning. It would be an interesting idea to find out how many successful rulers / politicians / CEOs work or ever worked at less than average wage. If you focus on a particular personality, then you miss the picture. You miss the picture and its no use discussing anything. You may use this forum as your release, but one could hardly exchange any idea with you.
Well...exchange ideas doesnt mean one has to agree ...it just gives you an understanding of what other ideas are out there....How can one exchange ideas with a man who has never even gone to "average Pakistani level" and lived like an elite or a king all his life?!
You implicitly raised an interesting question: why would anyone invest time, effort, and money in politics at all? Can someone without any of the aforementioned commodities (namely having time, possessing the ability to make effort, and money to spend) be able to engage in politics? This requires some serious thinking and one would need to understand as to why would a person like (late) Nawabzada Nasrullah Khan, or Sardar Ahmad Ali squander his wealth in politics?
You may have your reasons to discuss a person, but that is quite beside the point as I see it. Correct me if I am wrong, though.
I am interested in discussing a group rather than an individual...
I have to disagree here. I can not find any epoch in this land of ours when the poor were not trodden upon. Their best chance is in an environment in which they are empowered to improve their lot. That environment could be had in a welfare state model, our constitutional goal. The said environment can not be had in conjunction with an over-riding security paradigm that consumes resources that could improve social indicators.
We could have peace long ago had we accepted Islam instead of accepting Jahalism...
Even common sense leads you to Islam (how atheist come to Islam not that I am saying many do but the few that do come when they use common sense)
The mess of today is partly the result of allowing an over-riding security paradigm define our mind-set. Why is it easy to blame the greasy politician, while overlooking government functionaries (uniformed or not) who are often times just as sleazy (if not more)?
I have openly also stated the unequal division of budget where the Defence areas look like Western countries while the other areas look like some shithole! So if you are linking me with a politician or an army minded party, you better stop right there!
The answer to that lies in the direct and indirect influence government functionaries have over the development of our world-view.
I only admired the army once that was when they responded faster than the stupid govt during the flooding that we suffered...
I could say more, but that would shift focus. I just wanted to point out that it is a bit unfair to malign our politicians for a few months or a couple of years' stint- while our servants (civil & military) get decades in powerful positions to protect their institutional interests and further entrench their grip. Where do 'the poor' figure in their calculations?
I would support the Army any day to flush out the corrupt politicians...not so they can rule....they are used as a backup and eventually voting has to take place...somehow or another
Just look at what has happened to Bahria Town's social investment in Karachi. Here we have an entrenched interest (namely DHA, staffed by you-know-who) protecting its interest by killing off a public welfare project which would have cost nothing to the government and benefited the poor. Which politician did this? Pray tell...
I am not aware of these projects...
Politicians are the products of the environment that have shaped us. They are conditioned just as we are.
Likewise for the army our army is not from Mars...Why accept one yet heavily reject the other if in you opinion both are doing roughly the same? Just coz the West tells you that Martial law is scary?
Allow me to digress. I would like to point to the constant refrain that Ayub Khan did this or that for our economy. You must have heard it too. This had been going on since your parents were teen-agers themselves. What Ayub Khan did to our COUNTRY, no one talks much about. That makes us feel uncomfortable because it challenges notions that we've been fed for decades. THAT is the sort of conditioning that I am talking about. What this means for me and you is that we instinctively blame the politician, and not the general. In my view (formed over three decades), blame lies more with generals than with politicians.
We blame the politicians but guess what we ourselves give them anther term to loot us...twice for Zardari and twice for NS....Too bad we go by Fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me and not by once bitten twice shy!
We have been conditioned to put blame where it suits someone else. You were a teenager during Mush years. It would take you some effort to pull yourself from inconsistent veiws.
No we have been conditioned to place the blame where it is repeated based on trust...It is from trust we elect ....and hence bruising a trust is worse than having an army take over by force...
The 'HOW' part would definitely include a large banner that reads: DO NOT REPEAT PAST MISTAKES. With views like the ones you have expressed,you seem like a person who would ignore the advice, just because you have been conditioned to: 1. not see mistakes as mistakes, 2. explain away the mistakes as inevitabilities, hard luck, politicians' faults, etc... 3. think that repeating a sequence of actions would produce different results.
So we are supposed to channel the mistakes to dead people like Zia and Ayub...after which we had "democracy" for 20 odd years ...democracy which couldnt be bothered to fix what you are terming "wrong" or democratic leaders who let this "wrong" thrive and give it a blind eye as their own interest was on their belly and pockets!
I would much prefer a lootayra politician like Zardari over a general like Yahya or Musharraf if the choice were that stark - simply because I / we could remove him, unlike a General.
Could we remove him? Our constitution actually states no one can file anything against him except he himself...lovely isnt it? How could we remove him? we sat in 4 yrs of misery waiting for his term to end so he can pass the crown to his mate NS...and then NS can return the favor...Surprisingly you seem to ignore this bit...And also surprisingly you seem to ignore how NS conveniently looted before and is continuously doing again today! Give him a blind eye coz we can remove him when his term is up after 4 years...when he has done irreparable damage..then we blame whoever comes on the throne that he cant fix the damage of 4 years....and when army comes over then we just blame the army for causing the damage that was already triggered! Lovely!
I am not saying the army is best ...but I am saying I dont want to elect a bastard who sticks like a parasite while we watch him drain the country dry!
People do understand what not to vote for better than a few years ago. In about four years' time they would be even better at it.
You think? Look NS he is repeating the exact same mistakes he did before! What changed? Nothing his blind thirst sure didnt get quenched!
I have nothing but contempt for the view that uses lack of education as an excuse for dictatorship. People instinctively understand many things whether or not they are educated.
You think? Few years back they were shown Bhtto died and everyone voted for a miserable 4 yrs! No one could remove him as you said...few years back everyone voted for the tind....no one could prove his corruptions.....yet we had to wait for some spray to kill the parasite...
Elitism would have one despise opinion of an uneducated person, without seeing that uneducated folk have the same needs as a member of elite class. The manner of fulfilling those needs would be different, goals would be a bit different but the needs shall be the same.
Yet we have 1 of the worlds lowest literacy!
Uneducated people do understand the value of social spending. Perhaps better than me or you, who have means to afford private sector social service providers (health, education, etc...).
Uneducated rich only know how to harrap as much as possible...while uneducated poor only know how make another day pass...they are not the problem the problem is hakumat who dont give them literacy as a fundamental right which is shameful at soo many levels!
Generals do take a vow as cadets. But that vow has something to do with upholding our constitution, among other things. How many dictators have you seen stand by that vow? What then is their vow worth?
Politicians also take vows and oaths. We simply need to discard the ones who violate their vows. Its that simple - and one need not allow conditioning to confuse us in this simple excercise.
Its not simple....So far how many "democratically elected leaders" have been kicked out due to lack of competence or bad governing? Not one!
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