Pakistan: A dream in tatters

[SQ8]

As an outside observer, it does seem that Pakistan is on the brink. Yet, I believe Pakistan's past will help it pull through. Pakistan was, 25 years ago, a relatively liberal nation which had been, by most counts, an economic success. Those attitudes live on in a society's memory and are impossible to erase and it's those attitudes that will form the basis of a society's resurgence. It's the same reason why Egypt or Lebanon, no matter what trials they go through will be, socially, very different form Saudi Arabia or Qatar.

Again, as an outsider who could very well be wrong, it seems like too little of Pakistan's social and political mind space is taken up by economic development and too much by questions of identity and morality. A change in focus, particularly political focus, could go a long way in restoring Pakistan's health.

In India, and this is a relatively recent development which will hopefully last, governance and development have become the centrepiece of almost all elections- in particular the last one. The BJP's victory has nothing to do with nationalism or Hindu pride, it's a consequence of Modi promising development and his track record of development in Gujarat. For Indian democracy to prove its maturity, the Indian people must vote him out if he fails to deliver in terms of the economy- from everything I've seen that's exactly what will happen if he does indeed fail.

While I appreciate the positivity. The elements that wish to negate the tolerance and progressiveness in the society of Pakistan did also exist in some form or another since its inception(after they left India for the very nation they worked against). The difference was that 25 years ago these elements were still not institutionalised as they were during the final days of Zulfikar Bhutto's rule and the subsequent Dictatorship of Zai-ul-haq.

Moreover, the appeal of Modi's economics may have won him the election.. but there is a marked change in the tolerance and agnosticism of Indians via their online behaviour based on the ideals projected by PM Modi for his political crowd. Bit by bit the "unreason" is creeping in. In Pakistan's case.. that "unreason" was preached through institutions.

 

[Afridistan]

The real cause for radicalization in our society is lack of proper and complete education. And education involves every single branch of knowledge, wether it be related to Islam or Science or anything else. Having command on selected areas of it will result in a society as confused as ours. Those with scientific education will seldom be seen learning Quran, hadith, fiqh, or would they be? All their knowledge about islam is mere speculation, never will a reference to Quran or Hadith would be heard in their islamic talk.
As for the ulema, i have personally met some, heard most of the others. But I never heard, from even a single one, that learning of science or of other modern branch is haraam. But, they do lay emphasis on one's remaining a muslim. I don't know why then people call them radical? In Quran Allah has said that "you must be a believer when your death approaches you" (this is not the exact translation- just mafhoom of the Ayah) I wonder what logic then makes their asking the muslims to follow this rule radical?
And what about the anti muslim laws secular countries implement?
We must bear it in mind that Islam is our sole identity, how else can we justify the very existence of pakistan. The Sikhs were there too, budhists were there also, but it was only muslims which demanded a separate homeland. If we were to remain secular, then why the hell was all that trouble of creating a seperate homeland, bloodshed at partition, four bloody wars, border tentions and the general competition?

 

[TheFlyingPretzel]

Don't get swayed by popular media. It always serves a hidden purpose.

Don't get brainwashed by the pulpit of today, it has an equally sinister and concealed purpose.

The mullah today, as you can see in the case of the unfortunate Christian couple referred to in OP's post, will have you believe that Islam is the only true path and that those astray must either convert or perish in its expansion. That the Hindu shall be smited, that America will kneel and that the Muslims will wage jihad fee sabeelillah and that the hour of our victory shall dawn upon us but in his vindictive and myopic tirade he will falter in reminding you that Allah commands you in the Quran not to force your religion unto others because Allah states that there is no compulsion in his deen - Al Baqara 256

The pulpit has been hijacked by terrorists and Islam is descending into an age of jahalat and chaos. Our fight is to revive our deen and to return Islam to its exalted position where it produced thinkers, scientists, explorers and visionaries, because all that Islam is producing today are barbarians who will wipe the floor with your blood because your faith differs from their's. They are as far astray from the teachings of the Islam that our Prophet (pbuh) left us with, as we are in our assumption that we are correct and that everybody else is wrong.

 

[Afridistan]

And for Allah's sake, stop thinking that islam is not a progressive religion. If it was good enough to civilize the wehshi arabs (a hundred times more radical and wehshi then we are today) it will also civilize us. We only have to open our minds and hearts to it..
In words of Iqbal,
Hu to maa'il ba karam hain, koi saa'il hi nhi,
Rah dikhain kisy, rahrave manzil hi nahi..

 

[mr.robot]

This letter is among 100s of sane voices now being raised d in Pakistan.

Change is coming and we'll change for the better.

Killing of Christian couple has been registered as a federal crime.

That means full might of state can be put towards prosecuting the perpetrators.


I wish we end mob violence aka dharna drama by Sh. Rasheed and his socket puppet IK

and focus on 2 things.

1. Polio eradication
2. Education of ordinary Pakistanis to move away from mob violence aka dharnas and lynching.

I know a person from my area whose sister was raped once by a landlord. He went on to register an F.I.R. Not only police refused but informed the landlord. The landlord raped her sister again and that too in front of him. He went on to become one of the deadliest "criminal" in South Punjab and killed whole family of that landlord. Some months ago, he also died in an encounter. That person was educated.

Education can't eradicate mob violence until state provides justice and justice is seems to be done. These things look great in theory though. Those who don't suffer the brutality which is later protected by the system tell us these sugar coated things.

 

[Not Sure]

Don't get brainwashed by the pulpit of today, it has an equally sinister and concealed purpose.

The mullah today, as you can see in the case of the unfortunate Christian couple referred to in OP's post, will have you believe that Islam is the only true path and that those astray must either convert or perish in its expansion. That the Hindu shall be smited, that America will kneel and that the Muslims will wage jihad fee sabeelillah and that the hour of our victory shall dawn upon us but in his vindictive and myopic tirade he will falter in reminding you that Allah commands you in the Quran not to force your religion unto others because Allah states that there is no compulsion in his deen - Al Baqara 256

The pulpit has been hijacked by terrorists and Islam is descending into an age of jahalat and chaos. Our fight is to revive our deen and to return Islam to its exalted position where it produced thinkers, scientists, explorers and visionaries, because all that Islam is producing today are barbarians who will wipe the floor with your blood because your faith differs from their's. They are as far astray from the teachings of the Islam that our Prophet (pbuh) left us with, as we are in our assumption that we are correct and that everybody else is wrong.

Kamaal karte ho mian, jitna darawna tumhara profile pic hai, usse jyada darawna tumhara post hai.

Main to ye jaanta hoon, ki Mullah ek hota hai, to public pachaas. If the public were to sense that their morality were being twisted and compromised by their local Mullah, to haal ye hoga ki us Mullah ka baal bhi nahi milega.

In the end, the public will have to rise to protect itself. If they are hoping for someone else to do the job, then it never happened in History, nor will it happen in future.

 

[asquare]

Moreover, the appeal of Modi's economics may have won him the election.. but there is a marked change in the tolerance and agnosticism of Indians via their online behaviour based on the ideals projected by PM Modi for his political crowd. Bit by bit the "unreason" is creeping in. In Pakistan's case.. that "unreason" was preached through institutions.

On this bit, I disagree completely. While certain extremely chauvinistic Indians may feel emboldened by the election results and therefore go overboard on the internet, by and large the mood in India seems to have changed in the opposite direction after the election. Rather than unrestrained euphoria just after the elections, there seems to more of 'let's wait and see how things turn out' attitude. The comments on Indian media websites seem to, by and large, reflect that as well. There's an incipient worry that the change delivered might be much smaller than the change promised.

This is completely unrelated to this thread, but I think the BJP and Modi are bit misunderstood in terms of their ideological position by people on this forum. On Pakistan, they are unrestrainedly jingoistic (which is unfortunate). However, on their vision for Indian society, I don't find their actions at all disturbing (for what it's worth, I consider myself liberal and I support Modi). Like all right wing parties in modern democracies, their rhetoric on ideology is rarely matched by their actions. Vajpayee and his government are seen as progressive and statesmanly in retrospect, however, at the time the BJP won for the first time in 1999 many of the same concerns were raised.

 

[SQ8]

On this bit, I disagree completely. While certain extremely chauvinistic Indians may feel emboldened by the election results and therefore go overboard on the internet, by and large the mood in India seems to have changed in the opposite direction after the election. Rather than unrestrained euphoria just after the elections, there seems to more of 'let's wait and see how things turn out' attitude. The comments on Indian media websites seem to, by and large, reflect that as well. There's an incipient worry that the change delivered might be much smaller than the change promised.

This is completely unrelated to this thread, but I think the BJP and Modi are bit misunderstood in terms of their ideological position by people on this forum. On Pakistan, they are unrestrainedly jingoistic (which is unfortunate). However, on their vision for Indian society, I don't find their actions at all disturbing (for what it's worth, I consider myself liberal and I support Modi). Like all right wing parties in modern democracies, their rhetoric on ideology is rarely matched by their actions. Vajpayee and his government are seen as progressive and statesmanly in retrospect, however, at the time the BJP won for the first time in 1999 many of the same concerns were raised.

Perhaps you have misinterpreted what I have said regarding the BJP and Modi.. and more regarding the attitude of the Indian online community.
I would direct you to this post I made regarding the BJP and Modi on what my views are on them.
China/Pakistan/India - Was Nehru smarter than Modi? | Page 29

 

[TheFlyingPretzel]

Main to ye jaanta hoon, ki Mullah ek hota hai, to public pachaas. If the public were to sense that their morality were being twisted and compromised by their local Mullah, to haal ye hoga ki us Mullah ka baal bhi nahi milega.

Bhool mein ho dost. Esai jorray kay qatl ka jashan mananay poora gaoun nikal aya tha. Yeh Pakistan hai meray bhai. Yahan maulvi Islam ka naam le tau awaam apnay sochnay ki silahiat ko kho bhet ti hai.

Maulvi kay moun se jo niklay woh kalamullah hai, chaheh uss me kitna zulm aur firqa variat kyun na ho.

 

[Not Sure]

Bhool mein ho dost. Esai jorray kay qatl ka jashan mananay poora gaoun nikal aya tha. Yeh Pakistan hai meray bhai. Yahan maulvi Islam ka naam le tau awaam apnay sochnay ki silahiat ko kho bhet ti hai.

Maulvi kay moun se jo niklay woh kalamullah hai, chaheh uss me kitna zulm aur firqa variat kyun na ho.

Issiliye maine kaha ki "If the public were to sense...".

I am a super right wing Indian, so I would always want to see and portray Pakistan in a bad light. But I am aware that in Pakistan the simpleton commoners comprise the majority, just as in India. That they are the ones who don't care about international politics, and yet bear the brunt of bigger games. And this is why it saddens me, because from where I am, all I see is that the good guys in Pakistan are too frightened to speak up (except for the few whom you can count on your digits), while the bad guys are ready to go to any extent to spread their beliefs.

And now, that deadly quiet of these good guys has become the strength of the bad guys.

Pata nahi log kahan chhup jaate hain.

Three years ago, India me Viswa Hindu Parishad aur Bajrang Dal ne ladke aur ladkiyon ko pakadna shuru kar diya tha, that "roaming around together is against our culture". Ek hafte me 25 logon ne PIL file kar di, and VHP quickly took a backseat and denounced its workers as independent miscreants. Uske baad nahi hua.

These days Modi is very strong, and very powerful. Do din pehle kooda saaf karne ka drama kar raha tha, his subordinates brought wilted flowers and dry leaves as 'kooda' and dropped it all on a squeaky clean street, so that when media comes Modi ji will be seen cleaning the streets (asli kooda = gobar, kutte ka fecal matter, garbage in polythene etc wahan kahiin nahi dikha). Well, people made videos of the subordinates pouring dry leaves as garbage on that already clean street (in front of a seminary I think). Video online ho gaya, and Arnab Goswami (I know he is needlessly loud and is even a bully, but still) ne kya kheench ke li BJP ki, sab seedhe ho gaye.

I am not trying to show that India is so much better or that Indians know how to do it and stuff (I am mentioning India because I experience it first hand). The point I am trying to make is that when you take the right path against such odds, people will follow you! And Pakistanis need to come out and show some leadership. It is not a skill confined to merely geographical, or religious dimensions.

Indeed, the first ones will have to face much hardship, but followers will be many.

By the way, I am sorry, but I disagree with you and I do not believe that Pakistani people are desirous to follow the corrupt Mullahs. May be fear, or pressure of society, but it is my firm belief that people are actually born with empathy. And even on this website, I see such blind followers in acute minority. Majority of Pakistanis on this website are as liberal as they come.

 

[asquare]

Perhaps you have misinterpreted what I have said regarding the BJP and Modi.. and more regarding the attitude of the Indian online community.
I would direct you to this post I made regarding the BJP and Modi on what my views are on them.
China/Pakistan/India - Was Nehru smarter than Modi? | Page 29

Thanks, a very interesting post- I've responded there rather than derail this thread.

 

[TheFlyingPretzel]

By the way, I am sorry, but I disagree with you and I do not believe that Pakistani people are desirous to follow the corrupt Mullahs. May be fear, or pressure of society, but it is my firm belief that people are born with empathy. And even on this website, I see such blind followers in acute minority. Majority of Pakistanis on this website are as liberal as they come.

If the example of the Christian couple does not ring any bells with you, then I say we agree to disagree. There was no fear, or coercion to attend the slaying in cold blood of a couple who were guilty only of standing up to their landlords, but the whole village came out to beat and burn them anyway. Why? Because the pulpit commanded them to and they responded dutifully.

 

[pursuit of happiness]

Secular Islam is a theory advocated by many. Read about the Mutazilite line of thinking. Averoes was the first person to suggest secularism? Who was he? He was a Muslim theologian and philosopher by the name of Ibn Rushd. He was moorish.

Ijtehad (a concept of revisiting Islamic beliefs due to changing times) which Iqbal proposed and support of Turkeys (they are not fully a secular nation because of issues like headscarves) secularism were part of it. Akbar also proposed a concept called Din E Ilahi in the mughal empire. Dara Shikoh too stood for this kind of thought.

We are the creators of the concept of secularism and it is now us being taught secularism by the world.

---
Thanks.. thank you very much....
its g8 learning...
--
can i ask you few more question.. pardon me for my ignorance ,
1.Ijtehad is as per quran?islamic teaching?
2.how Ijtehad is practiced in nation state except turkey if any ?
3. Ijtehad and islamic state hood are mutually opposite ..is it?
4. as you also know Din E ilahi did not took up.. though it was g8 .. will it not go against basic doctrine of islam of one god .. ?
5. seculat state of 20th centurey lets take france a pure secualre state (sepration of relgiona nd state ) and india a diffrent secular system of (equal respect for all relgion .with separation of relgion and state )
what are similarities and dissimilarity between above system (france and india ) Ijtehad
6. if pak or any other islamic country need to got o way of Ijtehad waht top 5 thing required in their Constitution and social settings?
7. how Ijtehad can be spread ,, any role model ,, any institution?
8. what are basic doctrain of Ijtehad

i know i asked many ..

 

[CyberForce786]

For all those who want to prove that Quaid-e-Azam (R.A) was a secular and he struggled for secular state....

Don't spit your secular non-sense about Quaid-e-Azam by selecting your favorite phrases from his huge collection of speeches about Pakistan and its future ....

A person add a link in this thread which include these wordings from the speech of Quaid-e-Azam (R.A)....
"You are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place or worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed -- that has nothing to do with the business of the State."

It doesn't proof any thing.... Just like we commonly say "Mind your own business"

While talking to the people of United States in a broadcast talk on 26 February 1948 he said, “Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state — to be ruled by priests with a divine mission.”

In a public address in Chittagong on 26 March 1948 he said, “Pakistan should be based on the pure foundations of social justice and Islamic socialism — no other ‘ism’ - which emphasize equality and brotherhood of man.”

This one is my favorite....
(Speech at the opening ceremony of State Bank of Pakistan, Karachi July 1, 1948) enjoy with link....
Quaid e Azam: The Last Will | Tune.pk

In this upper link he clearly said "System based of true Islamic concept of equality of manhood and social justice"

As a matter of fact no one can deny this fact from history that people from any religion from any part of the world feel save in the asylum of Khilafat and it is a true sprite of Islam....