Pak to start production of high tech Al-Khalid 2 tank

[ziaulislam]

Probably not the best thread to ask, but AK-2 program will continue as it was before. VT4 is to replace older tanks because Pakistan could not produce enough AKs in time. Due to the war on terror the AK-1 project and AK production was severely cut down to a few tanks a year, and was completely halted for a couple of years in between too. The money had to be put elsewhere. That’s why the AK-1 only started induction in 2020 despite being unveiled years earlier.

This also pushed AK-2 back by a significant amount of time. But now things are back on track, AK-1 production will continue alongside VT4 induction until AK-2 is ready. We discussed this before in the VT-4 thread, but it is highly Likely AK-2 will have various improvements in it from VT-4, at the same time incorporating newer Ukrainian and local technology. How much AK-2 will take from VT4 will depend upon how far it already is down the design stage and how much they’re willing to change it. We can hopefully expect to see a redesigned turret, a bigger engine and such major changes.

Bottom line is, the project is still on and we will see it a few years down the road. IA it will be sooner rather than later.

Better talk with china and get tot and locally produce vt4 and accept the failure and move on

 

[Scorpiooo]

Probably not the best thread to ask, but AK-2 program will continue as it was before. VT4 is to replace older tanks because Pakistan could not produce enough AKs in time. Due to the war on terror the AK-1 project and AK production was severely cut down to a few tanks a year, and was completely halted for a couple of years in between too. The money had to be put elsewhere. That’s why the AK-1 only started induction in 2020 despite being unveiled years earlier.

This also pushed AK-2 back by a significant amount of time. But now things are back on track, AK-1 production will continue alongside VT4 induction until AK-2 is ready. We discussed this before in the VT-4 thread, but it is highly Likely AK-2 will have various improvements in it from VT-4, at the same time incorporating newer Ukrainian and local technology. How much AK-2 will take from VT4 will depend upon how far it already is down the design stage and how much they’re willing to change it. We can hopefully expect to see a redesigned turret, a bigger engine and such major changes.

Bottom line is, the project is still on and we will see it a few years down the road. IA it will be sooner rather than later.

Thanks for detail reply, hopefully it will be materialized but take time

 

[iLION12345_1]

Better talk with china and get tot and locally produce vt4 and accept the failure and move on

China didn’t allow ToT for VT-4. Pakistan already tried. I don’t get what you mean by “accept failure” when there was no failure in the first place? AK project has been highly successful overall, just because the timeline was slowed by the WoT doesn’t make it a failure. Those funds were needed to fight terror, even the entire navies budget was allocated to PA and PAF, that’s why the navy fell far behind, you wanna call them a failure too?
What other countries apart from the major defense industries have had such a successful tank project? Even bigger, richer countries like India failed miserably.

I don’t mean to be rude, but kindly try to understand or do research before jumping to conclusions.

 

[Scorpiooo]

Better talk with china and get tot and locally produce vt4 and accept the failure and move on

In your local production of VT4 is more practical then investing on AK2 programs more

Technically which will be better tank VT4 or AK2

 

[iLION12345_1]

In your local production of VT4 is more practical then investing on AK2 programs more

Technically which will be better tank VT4 or AK2

Local product is always a better choice. It gives you freedom of development, strengthens local industries, creates jobs and RnD. No matter how close you get to China, self reliance is always better, even if it costs a little more, which in this case it really doesn’t.

We can’t say for sure if AK-2 will be better than VT-4 because we don’t know the Specifications of AK-2, but it doesn’t need to be better. It costs us over 5 million USD to get one VT-4 and under 2 million USD to make one AK-1, even with VT4s advantages, you can see why the local product is more cost effective. If the AK-2 can just match the VT4, it will be a much superior product, as you can get 2 for the price of one.

and I’ll repeat: China didn’t give ToT for VT-4, despite Pakistan’s repeated attempts to get it. No reason that will change anytime soon, but what is fully possible is VT-4 components on AK-2 to improve it.

 

[Scorpiooo]

Local product is always a better choice. It gives you freedom of development, strengthens local industries, creates jobs and RnD. No matter how close you get to China, self reliance is always better, even if it costs a little more, which in this case it really doesn’t.

We can’t say for sure if AK-2 will be better than VT-4 because we don’t know the Specifications of AK-2, but it doesn’t need to be better. It costs us over 5 million USD to get one VT-4 and under 2 million USD to make one AK-1, even with VT4s advantages, you can see why the local product is more cost effective. If the AK-2 can just match the VT4, it will be a much superior product, as you can get 2 for the price of one.

and I’ll repeat: China didn’t give ToT for VT-4, despite Pakistan’s repeated attempts to get it. No reason that will change anytime soon, but what is fully possible is VT-4 components on AK-2 to improve it.

Make sense, specially it given experience and expertise of they ever go for 4th gen tank in future

 

[jamal18]

I am totally confused as to why Pakistan keeps shopping for Tanks from other countries when they make their own.

 

[Scorpiooo]

I am totally confused as to why Pakistan keeps shopping for Tanks from other countries when they make their own.

Slow speed of HIT, unable to meet demand and supply Gap

 

[mudas777]

What other countries apart from the major defense industries have had such a successful tank project? Even bigger, richer countries like India failed miserably.

Are we following the Arjun route and wait and wait and nothing to show for and at the mean time current fleet is getting obsolete and technology is moving on. Then we are going to be forced into off the shelf solutions and how can one compensate for the lost time. Why we ended up buying VT4 if our project was so successful if things were so great? Its time to move on as we lack in R&D facilities and so many other aspects of tank production. Joint production or TOT is the only option we got otherwise its all hot air as we need to understand our limitations too. Accepting failure and learning from it is the best course of action. We should go for VT 4 with TOT and down the line when Atlay comes on line then decide what options we have got.
If AK2 is not in a better league then VT4 then why go for the AK2 ?
Obviously we need help and if we want to go for own tank route and even Turkey bought the technology from the Korea for their tank designs. We need to play with the ideas of TOT and joint productions where ever it comes from to make this program successful as current fleet is getting obsolete and can't be sustained in the long run.

 

[jamal18]

Local product is always a better choice. It gives you freedom of development, strengthens local industries, creates jobs and RnD. No matter how close you get to China, self reliance is always better, even if it costs a little more, which in this case it really doesn’t.

We can’t say for sure if AK-2 will be better than VT-4 because we don’t know the Specifications of AK-2, but it doesn’t need to be better. It costs us over 5 million USD to get one VT-4 and under 2 million USD to make one AK-1, even with VT4s advantages, you can see why the local product is more cost effective. If the AK-2 can just match the VT4, it will be a much superior product, as you can get 2 for the price of one.

and I’ll repeat: China didn’t give ToT for VT-4, despite Pakistan’s repeated attempts to get it. No reason that will change anytime soon, but what is fully possible is VT-4 components on AK-2 to improve it.

You forgot to mention jobs, and an improved balance of payments condition.

Slow speed of HIT, unable to meet demand and supply Gap

Yes. I read the production figure a while back and was truly shocked.

 

[iLION12345_1]

Are we following the Arjun route and wait and wait and nothing to show for and at the mean time current fleet is getting obsolete and technology is moving on. Then we are going to be forced into off the shelf solutions and how can one compensate for the lost time. Why we ended up buying VT4 if our project was so successful if things were so great? Its time to move on as we lack in R&D facilities and so many other aspects of tank production. Joint production or TOT is the only option we got otherwise its all hot air as we need to understand our limitations too. Accepting failure and learning from it is the best course of action. We should go for VT 4 with TOT and down the line when Atlay comes on line then decide what options we have got.
If AK2 is not in a better league then VT4 then why go for the AK2 ?
Obviously we need help and if we want to go for own tank route and even Turkey bought the technology from the Korea for their tank designs. We need to play with the ideas of TOT and joint productions where ever it comes from to make this program successful as current fleet is getting obsolete and can't be sustained in the long run.

I really don’t mean to be rude but I’m starting to wonder if some members have trouble reading basic English or doing basic research. This topic has been discussed to absolute death and so many members including me have explained it so many times. Yet people keep jumping to conclusions with zero knowledge of what they are saying.

Let me put this out for you as simply as possible because apparently scrolling back two posts and reading them is difficult for you:

1. The AK project is NOT A FAILURE. There are over 700 of the thing in service with 4 nations. Over 600 in Pakistan with production continuing at 35/year (increasing to 50 soon). Don’t Compare this to the Arjun which is an absolute failure. Especially if you have zero understanding of either project.

2. The AK-1 and 2 development was never an issue of lack of RnD or capability, Pakistan has more than enough capability to design a tank, we literally did so with AK in the first place and then AK-1. The problem came only recently, we had a damn war to fight and funds have to be allocated to that. Priorities were shifted. If that war hadn’t happened AK2 would likely be in production right now. How is that a failure of design or failure of project? Would you rather we pump money into designing new tanks or fighting terrorism?

3. AK production was slow because of the same reason too, lack of funds, If the WoT hadn’t started we wouldn’t need to buy VT4 as we could replace everything with our own tank. But since it did start and now the replacement is behind on schedule, we are buying foreign tanks at the same time as local ones to make up for that loss, funds are not an issue anymore. That’s why AK production is ramping up to the Max.

4. VT4 is better than AK1 because AK1 is a minor upgrade over AK, AK1 production was suppose to start years prior but couldn’t due to funds, AK-2 was supposed to be closer to VT4 but again for half the price. It was already supposed to be here so that we wouldn’t need the foreign option. But I already explained why it wasn’t the case.

How does any of this suggest that the project overall is a failure, or that Pakistan cannot design a tank? Was it HITs fault that the army had to fight a war? Or maybe it was the designers fault? people like you come up with Baseless conclusions that Pakistan cannot do this or cannot do that.

Turkey has never designed a tank before, Atlay won’t be here for years and will never see service in Pakistan as it’s simply too heavy and will come too late. I don’t know why Pakistanis are obsessed with that thing when it’s nowhere near completion or maturity and has no place in our region or doctrine.

AK-2 was supposed to be our equivalent to VT4. And it still will be when it comes, it doesn’t need to be better than the VT4, it needs to be cost effective (and yet it will still likely match the VT4 in performance). Hence the local option is better. If it comes too late then it will be improved enough to surpass the VT4, they will simply account for the advancement in tech, something they already did with the AK1 (current model of AK1 has improvements over the original one to account for late production).

Technically the AK1 is just as good as the VT4 due to it being 1/3rd the price. People want the JF17 to compare to the rafale when it costs 1/10th the price. The Price IS ITS BEST FEATURE. You get more numbers. It’s a very simple concept. That’s why local is better.

I repeated thrice already that ToT for VT4 was not granted despite Pakistans requests, is it that hard to read?

And then people bring up logistics, apparently having tanks that share more than half their components is a logistical issue, but buying the Atlay, which has 0 parts in common with what Pakistan operates is a good option? you have no idea what you’re talking about.

please don’t be an armchair expert. Understand something before you speak about it. All these things have been very clearly discussed in their respective threads many times.

 

[iLION12345_1]

Slow speed of HIT, unable to meet demand and supply Gap

You forgot to mention jobs, and an improved balance of payments condition.


Yes. I read the production figure a while back and was truly shocked.

Not HITs fault. Explained above.

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

I really don’t mean to be rude but I’m starting to wonder if some members have trouble reading basic English or doing basic research. This topic has been discussed to absolute death and so many members including me have explained it so many times. Yet people keep jumping to conclusions with zero knowledge of what they are saying.

Let me put this out for you as simply as possible because apparently scrolling back two posts and reading them is difficult for you:

1. The AK project is NOT A FAILURE. There are over 700 of the thing in service with 4 nations. Over 600 in Pakistan with production continuing at 35/year (increasing to 50 soon). Don’t Compare this to the Arjun which is an absolute failure. Especially if you have zero understanding of either project.

2. The AK-1 and 2 development was never an issue of lack of RnD or capability, Pakistan has more than enough capability to design a tank, we literally did so with AK in the first place and then AK-1. The problem came only recently, we had a damn war to fight and funds have to be allocated to that. Priorities were shifted. If that war hadn’t happened AK2 would likely be in production right now. How is that a failure of design or failure of project? Would you rather we pump money into designing new tanks or fighting terrorism?

3. AK production was slow because of the same reason too, lack of funds, If the WoT hadn’t started we wouldn’t need to buy VT4 as we could replace everything with our own tank. But since it did start and now the replacement is behind on schedule, we are buying foreign tanks at the same time as local ones to make up for that loss, funds are not an issue anymore. That’s why AK production is ramping up to the Max.

4. VT4 is better than AK1 because AK1 is a minor upgrade over AK, AK1 production was suppose to start years prior but couldn’t due to funds, AK-2 was supposed to be closer to VT4 but again for half the price. It was already supposed to be here so that we wouldn’t need the foreign option. But I already explained why it wasn’t the case.

How does any of this suggest that the project overall is a failure, or that Pakistan cannot design a tank? Was it HITs fault that the army had to fight a war? Or maybe it was the designers fault? people like you come up with Baseless conclusions that Pakistan cannot do this or cannot do that.

Turkey has never designed a tank before, Atlay won’t be here for years and will never see service in Pakistan as it’s simply too heavy and will come too late. I don’t know why Pakistanis are obsessed with that thing when it’s nowhere near completion or maturity and has no place in our region or doctrine.

AK-2 was supposed to be our equivalent to VT4. And it still will be when it comes, it doesn’t need to be better than the VT4, it needs to be cost effective (and yet it will still likely match the VT4 in performance). Hence the local option is better.
I repeated thrice already that ToT for VT4 was not granted despite Pakistans requests, is it that hard to read?

please don’t be an armchair expert. Understand something before you speak about it. All these things have been very clearly discussed in their respective threads many times.

Stop wasting your time most members on this Forum don't use their heads. Emotions are what guide their beliefs and understanding. Look at the way they treat matters of Geopolitics. As far as Military Industrial Complex is concerned Facts and limitations of R&D and Funding don't matter to them.

AK project has seen many ups and downs over the Years But it is still A Tank (Even AK baseline) no other tank in Indian Inventory except T90MS can Match. And when the time comes it will move to the next phase Triumphantly. People tend to forget HIT has many problems but most of them are related to management It has to make New tanks, APCs, upgrade older ones, Rebuild SPHs fix the tanks that are too damaged to be fixed in the field. For years they have asked for funding to upgrade Machinery and building techniques but only recently some money has started flowing their way.

 

[Scorpiooo]

I really don’t mean to be rude but I’m starting to wonder if some members have trouble reading basic English or doing basic research. This topic has been discussed to absolute death and so many members including me have explained it so many times. Yet people keep jumping to conclusions with zero knowledge of what they are saying.

Let me put this out for you as simply as possible because apparently scrolling back two posts and reading them is difficult for you:

1. The AK project is NOT A FAILURE. There are over 700 of the thing in service with 4 nations. Over 600 in Pakistan with production continuing at 35/year (increasing to 50 soon). Don’t Compare this to the Arjun which is an absolute failure. Especially if you have zero understanding of either project.

2. The AK-1 and 2 development was never an issue of lack of RnD or capability, Pakistan has more than enough capability to design a tank, we literally did so with AK in the first place and then AK-1. The problem came only recently, we had a damn war to fight and funds have to be allocated to that. Priorities were shifted. If that war hadn’t happened AK2 would likely be in production right now. How is that a failure of design or failure of project? Would you rather we pump money into designing new tanks or fighting terrorism?

3. AK production was slow because of the same reason too, lack of funds, If the WoT hadn’t started we wouldn’t need to buy VT4 as we could replace everything with our own tank. But since it did start and now the replacement is behind on schedule, we are buying foreign tanks at the same time as local ones to make up for that loss, funds are not an issue anymore. That’s why AK production is ramping up to the Max.

4. VT4 is better than AK1 because AK1 is a minor upgrade over AK, AK1 production was suppose to start years prior but couldn’t due to funds, AK-2 was supposed to be closer to VT4 but again for half the price. It was already supposed to be here so that we wouldn’t need the foreign option. But I already explained why it wasn’t the case.

How does any of this suggest that the project overall is a failure, or that Pakistan cannot design a tank? Was it HITs fault that the army had to fight a war? Or maybe it was the designers fault? people like you come up with Baseless conclusions that Pakistan cannot do this or cannot do that.

Turkey has never designed a tank before, Atlay won’t be here for years and will never see service in Pakistan as it’s simply too heavy and will come too late. I don’t know why Pakistanis are obsessed with that thing when it’s nowhere near completion or maturity and has no place in our region or doctrine.

AK-2 was supposed to be our equivalent to VT4. And it still will be when it comes, it doesn’t need to be better than the VT4, it needs to be cost effective (and yet it will still likely match the VT4 in performance). Hence the local option is better. If it comes too late then it will be improved enough to surpass the VT4, they will simply account for the advancement in tech, something they already did with the AK1 (current model of AK1 has improvements over the original one to account for late production).

Technically the AK1 is just as good as the VT4 due to it being 1/3rd the price. People want the JF17 to compare to the rafale when it costs 1/10th the price. The Price IS ITS BEST FEATURE. You get more numbers. It’s a very simple concept. That’s why local is better.

I repeated thrice already that ToT for VT4 was not granted despite Pakistans requests, is it that hard to read?

And then people bring up logistics, apparently having tanks that share more than half their components is a logistical issue, but buying the Atlay, which has 0 parts in common with what Pakistan operates is a good option? you have no idea what you’re talking about.

please don’t be an armchair expert. Understand something before you speak about it. All these things have been very clearly discussed in their respective threads many times.

Don't forget Atlay is too expensive for us.

 

[iLION12345_1]

Stop wasting your time most members on this Forum don't use their heads. Emotions are what guide their beliefs. From Geopolitics to Military Industrial Complex Facts and limitations of R&D and Funding don't matter to them.

AK project has seen many ups and downs over the Years But it is still A Tank (Even AK baseline) no other tank in Indian Inventory except T90MS can Match. And when the time comes it will move to the next phase Triumphantly. People tend to forget HIT has many problems but most of them are related to management It has to make New tanks, APCs, upgrade older ones, Rebuild SPHs fix the tanks that are too damaged to be fixed in the field. For years they have asked for funding to upgrade Machinery and building techniques but only recently some money has started flowing their way.

I agree we have our fair share of issues, especially in the backwardness of military leadership, but people really overhype them to the point where they forget what we’ve already accomplished. A lot of our progress issues came from WoT, but it also helped us progress in other fields, a good portion of our issues our own slowness caused too.

On a more technical note: India has no T90MS in service or on order. That’s been debunked many times. Their initial order was canceled and now they Only have more base models on order. They only operate base model T90S with no improvements other than a thermal imager. Currently they have about 1150 of them. Plus 1900 T72s (of which about 1000 are modernized and the rest are obsolete). Plus 176 Arjuns (Mk1 only).
The biggest weakness of India is their ammunition. They only started inducting Russian rounds from the 80s in late 2019, most of them use even older ammo from 70s. Their standard rounds have penetration lower than what our local rounds had in the late 90s and early 2000s. The rounds they are buying now have 450mm/0 deg at 2km (local ones have even lower at 300) compared to our 600 and 650/0 deg 2KM. Plus only their T90S and modernized T72 can fire those rounds. The rest stay obsolete.
They also use K5 Second Gen ERA in 2021, all Pakistani tanks have moved on to 3rd Gen FY4, Nozh or Aorak 2.
I made a detailed comparison here in post 2669.

Pakistan Army's VT-4 Main Battle Tank | Updates & Discussions

Can AK2 become a version of VT4? Since AK-2 is not finalised yet, absorbing the best of VT-4 design into AK-2's final version, i.e. combining the best of the two into one, would be a smart move.

defence.pk

I’m not one to underestimate the enemy by any means, but tanks are one place where Indian superiority is vastly overhyped. In just a few years time we will match them in numbers, we’ve already surpassed them in tech.

Don't forget Atlay is too expensive for us.

Depends on what you consider “expensive” to be. Turkey needs a rather small number of tanks compared to Pakistan. They, like most European countries go for a small number of highly advanced, big and expensive tanks, meanwhile Pakistan needs a much larger number, so we go for smaller, cheaper, but somewhat less capable ones. Pakistan could get Atlay, but then we’d be going against our doctrine where we need to balance capability with cost and not go full capability-high cost. This is where AK hits the mark and Arjun has completely missed. Arjun is entirely out of place both size and prize wise in the India-Pakistan tank doctrine. They need the same type of tank as us (which they did with T90 and T72) but then cocked it with Arjun.

JF17 is based on the same cost effective, high number Principle, where tejas costs 4x more and is similarly capable, thunder is 4x more numerous due to better planning of project. Turkey again would go for a small number of F35 or something of the sort, capability over numbers. Meanwhile we would go for Jf17 over bigger expensive aircraft.

basically all these expensive options are open to Pakistan, but unless you’re a country with unlimited money like USA, you either go for cost effective in large numbers or more capable in small numbers, and the former suits Pakistans doctrine more in all cases, wether it be air land or sea.