Pak restrics religious freedom, practice : US

[patriotpakistan]

Oh I see. Just another PTI jiala dreaming of deposing an elected government to grab power. Right. As if PTI in power will repeal those horrific laws. The real masters will determine who gets power and when in Pakistan.

Keep trolling. You have been reported.

 

[VCheng]

Keep trolling. You have been reported.

I am not trolling. The "angels" will decide who gets political power and for how long. They remain in control, and it is not trolling to say that. I mean it seriously.

 

[dray]

The pot calling the kettle black. Muslims live in fear everyday in the US.

WHY??

 

[That Guy]

Shooting the messenger ?

The article at post No 1 is from The Dawn.

I'd like to read similar remarks below the article in the newspaper instead of venting here.

I meant to say that to dawn, not you. Apologize for any misunderstanding.

 

[PakPrinciples]

What change for the better? How much longer should it take to repeal the Blasphemy and Hadood Ordnances?

Why would we ever repeal the Hadood Ordinances? If anyone has a problem with Islam and feels like they need to be drunks, drug addicts, prostitutes, etc... they should stay away from Pakistan.

As for the blasphemy laws no one has the right to insult Islam in the Islamic Republic. Before the US pushes its bullshit on us they should confront their own "friends" like Norway, Greece, Canada, Austria, Germany, etc... all of whom have laws in one shape or form that can be used to prosecute blasphemy.

Simply put we don't need advice from a nation built on what is probably the worlds worst incidence of genocide, who virtually invented concentration camps (i.e. native reserves), took more than 90 years to "end" slavery after officially becoming independent (ongoing for at least 250 years) and another 100 years before officially putting an end to racial segregation. It's laughable for a country that dropped nukes on civilians in Japan, napalm on children in Vietnam, colonized independent Hawaii and instigates war/destruction virtually everywhere it goes (ex. the US' insatiable appetite for narcotics and subsequent funding to fight the "war on drugs" in Mexico has turned the latter into a war zone) to lecture us about civility and peace.

 

[nvKyleBrown]

Keep trolling. You have been reported.

There's tolerance in action.

 

[VCheng]

Why would we ever repeal the Hadood Ordinances? If anyone has a problem with Islam and feels like they need to be drunks, drug addicts, prostitutes, etc... they should stay away from Pakistan.

As for the blasphemy laws no one has the right to insult Islam in the Islamic Republic. Before the US pushes its bullshit on us they should confront their own "friends" like Norway, Greece, Canada, Austria, Germany, etc... all of whom have laws in one shape or form that can be used to prosecute blasphemy.

Simply put we don't need advice from a nation built on what is probably the worlds worst incidence of genocide, who virtually invented concentration camps (i.e. native reserves), took more than 90 years to "end" slavery after officially becoming independent (ongoing for at least 250 years) and another 100 years before officially putting an end to racial segregation. It's laughable for a country that dropped nukes on civilians in Japan, napalm on children in Vietnam, colonized independent Hawaii and instigates war/destruction virtually everywhere it goes (ex. the US' insatiable appetite for narcotics and subsequent funding to fight the "war on drugs" in Mexico has turned the latter into a war zone) to lecture us about civility and peace.

Oh that's right, I forgot. You don't need advice from USA, only dollars. Right. How well is everything else working out for you over there in the Land of the Pure?

 

[Secur]

Why would we ever repeal the Hadood Ordinances?

Maybe because the person raped doesn't seem to produce four witnesses for some reason and hence instead of getting the rapist convicted, gets herself convicted. Tell me, is the use of forensic evidence allowed? Or we need the good old fashioned four people to witness and report the whole thing, every time? Every religious law is being misused in this country to no end, the blasphemy law to persecute minorities ( the law isn't even allowed to work at different times, because in addition to the FIR being registered at most time with personal agendas, the frenzied religious nut jobs and Madarsas personnel start to burn the houses and kill people first with the state being criminally silent ) - Look at what happened in Lahore and Gujranwala recently and I hope I do not need to tell you about the Qisas law ( routinely used to terminate people legally and then offer money to poor families or pressurize them into doing so ). I also hope that I do not need to tell you, what would have happened if a certain head of Islamic council had been allowed to amend law, allowing marriage of girls under 18, paving the way for unbridled abuse of women again.

According to a report by the National Commission on Status of Women(NCSW) "an estimated 80% of women" in jail in 2003 were there as because "they had failed to prove rape charges and were consequently convicted of adultery."

Further ironic is the fact that the people enjoying the secular laws in the Dar-ul-Harb are the most vocal about implementation of Islamic law in Pakistan - its called hypocrisy also. There's a reason why religious parties haven't had much luck in this country, we simply do not want them in power to do more damage than Commander of the Faithful Zia-ul-Haq imposing himself on the people of Pakistan has already done.

If anyone has a problem with Islam and feels like they need to be drunks, drug addicts, prostitutes, etc... they should stay away from Pakistan.

Found aplenty in the Islamic world and Pakistan, you cant claim a moral high ground over the West here because non-exists in reality. The books and sermons of course, can claim all sorts of things, the ground reality is different. Despite all the enforcement and implementation of laws by the state, I must add. Perhaps developing moral character instead of relying on state power to make people follow the religion, would show better results.

 

[third eye]

I meant to say that to dawn, not you. Apologize for any misunderstanding.

Appreciate your post.

 

[PakPrinciples]

Oh that's right, I forgot. You don't need advice from USA, only dollars

You also forgot that the US wants transit routes through and over Pakistani territory hence why they need to pay up. The "AID" you're referring to was always tied to NATO transit hence why Pakistan was under sanctions in the 90s and why the money stopped flowing when NATO transit routes were shut down. It's never been about helping people.

In fact Pakistan would have made a lot more money ($100+ million a month) and have needed to comply with none of the US' demands if it simply charged transit fees for NATO convoys travelling over and through Pakistani territory.

However, Pakistan should have simply told the US to get lost because its cooperation in their war of terror and occupation resulted in conflict breaking out in Pakistan and costing the country over $100 billion also largely attributed to the US loosing track of over 200,000 guns, huge caches of ammo and its support of drug traffickers in Afghanistan who now run the country. This is so similar to how the US turned Mexico into a war zone.

Maybe because the person raped doesn't seem to produce four witnesses for some reason

Tell me, is the use of forensic evidence allowed? Or we need the good old fashioned four people to witness and report the whole thing, every time?

With regards to Sharia rape never required four witnesses the victims testimony is enough to warrant an investigation and subsequent arrest as confirmed by the following hadith (Sunan Abu Dawud book 38 number 4366)

Narrated Wa'il ibn Hujr: When a woman went out in the time of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) for prayer, a man attacked her and overpowered (raped) her. She shouted and he went off, and when a man came by, she said: That (man) did such and such to me. And when a company of the Emigrants came by, she said: That man did such and such to me. They went and seized the man whom they thought had had intercourse with her and brought him to her. She said: Yes, this is he. Then they brought him to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him). When he (the Prophet) was about to pass sentence, the man who (actually) had assaulted her stood up and said: Apostle of Allah, I am the man who did it to her. He (the Prophet) said to her: Go away, for Allah has forgiven you. But he told the man some good words (AbuDawud said: meaning the man who was seized), and of the man who had had intercourse with her, he said: Stone him to death. He also said: He has repented to such an extent that if the people of Medina had repented similarly, it would have been accepted from them.​

Furthermore, I've never read anything stating that forensic evidence wasn't inadmissible.

Do you want to turn Pakistan into a state like India where rape has become a Pandemic?

The 4 witnesses you're referring to is with regards to proving adultery and was created specifically to protect people, particularly women, from unwanted slander.

However adultery is a crime and has literally been one of the largest contributing factors to the AIDS pandemic which killed about 1.7 million people in 2011 alone. In fact had people abstained from sexual intercourse outside of marriage to begin with AIDS would never have been a problem and could have been easily isolated when it was first discovered.

Every religious law is being misused in this country to no end, the blasphemy law to persecute minorities

Look at what happened in Lahore and Gujranwala recently

It has nothing to do with Sharia being misused instead it's more evident that Islam is being disregarded.

Muslims are advocated to protect minorities who are law abiding citizens as per the following hadith (Shaih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 287)

Narrated 'Amr bin Maimun: Umar (after he was stabbed), instructed (his would-be-successor) saying, "I urge him (i.e. the new Caliph) to take care of those non-Muslims who are under the protection of Allah and His Apostle in that he should observe the convention agreed upon with them, and fight on their behalf (to secure their safety) and he should not over-tax them beyond their capability."​

Pakistan's blasphemy laws do not restrict the ability of non-Muslims to practice their faith instead it is to prevent malicious propaganda being spread about Islam which creates social disharmony. This is similar to how blasphemy laws/libel are used used in Norway, Greece, Canada, Austria, Germany, etc...

I hope I do not need to tell you about the Qisas law ( routinely used to terminate people legally and then offer money to poor families or pressurize them into doing so )

The Qisas law was created specifically to protect life by asking everyone to seek alternatives to capital punishment if at all possible:

In the Law of Equality there is (saving of) Life to you, o ye men of understanding; that ye may restrain yourselves. (Surah 2:179)​

How is this a bad thing?

If people are being pressured into accepting compensation in lieu of prosecuting and punishing criminals then it's not the failure of Sharia but the state organs tasked with protecting victims and ensuring their wish/desires are met.

Do you honestly think anything will change if this law was repealed? Those people who are forcing other to accept compensation will simply continue this practice utilizing those forces tasked with protecting peoples rights to assist in covering up their crimes as has been occurring for decades in neighbouring “secular” India and around the world.

Pakistan needs knowledgeable religious leaders who can guide the people on the straight path.

Found aplenty in the Islamic world and Pakistan, you cant claim a moral high ground over the West here because non-exists in reality. The books and sermons of course, can claim all sorts of things, the ground reality is different. Despite all the enforcement and implementation of laws by the state

Further ironic is the fact that the people enjoying the secular laws in the Dar-ul-Harb are the most vocal about implementation of Islamic law in Pakistan - its called hypocrisy also

How is anything I've said hypocritical? Sharia offers pretty much the same protections as one would get in a country like Canada the only difference is there are stricter dress and moral codes which I abide by anyways (ex. don't drink alcohol, don't do drugs, don't engage in sexual intercourse outside of marriage, etc...) and harsher punishments for crimes which are also less costly to implement and are more effective in deterring future criminal activity.

Muslims created Pakistan, it's Muslims who fought for it, bled for it, and continue to die for it so why wouldn't we be vocal about enforcing Sharia in Pakistan? Pew's own public opinion polls conducted in the country confirm that 84% of the nations Muslims (or 80 to 82% of the countries total population when correlated with official demographic studies conducted by the government) outright want Sharia and though they did not specifically mention how many opposed it based on public opinion polls I've seen I estimate that number to be 10% or less. Thus, my views are shared by the large majority within Pakistan.

The Western legal system is increasingly failing hence why countries with Sharia have a far better law and order situation than those without it. It's gotten so out of hand in the US and Canada that the governments don't even have the money to put criminals in jail anymore so they're getting lighter sentences or simply being let out early which itself encourages more crime.
Prison costs soar 86% in past five years: report | National Post

Because of how the Western legal system is structured money is having to be diverted from social welfare programs, education, etc... to pay to keep more and more criminals in jail.
Benjamin Todd Jealous: Prison Spending Bleeds the Education System

Furthermore, do you honestly think a country like Canada is secular?

The Canadian government has been engaged in cultural genocide of the Native American peoples for decades by kidnapping Native Children and pushing Christianity and English on them via the Indian Residential School System administered on their behalf by the Catholic church and the last of which was closed in 1996.

Even today the Canadian government funds the Catholic school board while offering no assistance to schools of any other religious denomination.

You are pushing a liberal agenda that's destructive and destabilizing because you do not understand Islam nor what you're preaching.

The fact is that Secular democracies offer no guarantees of protection and lead to instability/chaos.

Take the US as an example. After it's independence it took about 180 years to end slavery and racial segregation so was it “secular” only after 1950? Furthermore, for all its “protections” and talk of “due process” nothing stopped the state from throwing Japanese-Americans into internment camps for nothing more than the fact that they happened be ethnically Japanese. These people committed no crimes, were guilty of nothing but were stripped of their freedoms.

Around 600 BC a man named Solon, regarded as one of the seven wise men of Greece and one of the original architects of Athenian democracy, warned his people that without a permanent/unchangeable set of laws (i.e. Sharia) democracy would not survive. His pleas were ignored, the Greek states fell into chaos and the Athenian democracy crumbled just as the Roman Republic did and has continued to happen across the world time and again.

This is why Jinnah and all of men/women that fought for Pakistan (ex. Alama Iqbal, Chaudhary Rehmat Ali, Sir Syed Khan, Agha Khan III, etc...) sought an Islamic Republic which operated by laws of the Quran and Sunnah. There are no instances in Islam where your rights can be stripped, no threat of political parties (ex. BJP in India) coming to power and amending laws to suit their own agendas, etc... It's because of Islam that Al-Andalus was Europe’s first true functioning multicultural society and was technologically ahead of the rest of the continent by about 700 years with running lights, lit streets, paved roads, etc...

I also hope that I do not need to tell you, what would have happened if a certain head of Islamic council had been allowed to amend law, allowing marriage of girls under 18, paving the way for unbridled abuse of women again.

Do you understand why a random number like “18” was even chosen? Even in Canada girls at 16 are allowed to get married with parental consent and as young as 15 with judicial consent. There is even a high profile example within the US relating to the marriage between 51 year old actor Doug Hutchinson and 16 year old Alexis Stodden.

From my readings Islam only instructs that marriage be conducted sometime after one reaches puberty which was also true of English Common Law and was practised within the US up until 1930 by 12 states where girls as young as 12 were allowed to wed (pg. 128 of “Parental Kidnapping in America: An Historical and Cultural Analysis).

With regards to marriage Islam is already clear that women must give their consent for it to be valid (Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 67):

Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "A matron should not be given in marriage except after consulting her; and a virgin should not be given in marriage except after her permission." The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! How can we know her permission?" He said, "Her silence (indicates her permission)."

​

Marriage without the girls consent is deemed invalid (Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 69):

Narrated Khansa bint Khidam Al-Ansariya:
that her father gave her in marriage when she was a matron and she disliked that marriage. So she went to Allah's Apostle and he declared that marriage invalid.

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So right from the offset it wouldn't matter whether the age of marriage was reduced because without the girls consent no marriage is possible that is as long as the state organs, and all Muslims of the Islamic Republic, are working to ensure that its citizens are protected. Ultimately it is also up to the parents to ensure that their children's desires/wishes are heard and their well being taken into consideration. The Quran itself makes it clear that ones children and spouses should be a source of joy:

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And they say, "Our Lord, let our spouses and children be a source of joy for us, and keep us in the forefront of the righteous." (Surah 25:74)

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Parents represent a position of trust and respect for a child so it is their responsibility to ensure that their children aren't coerced or forced into a marriage before they're ready and particularly if such a union would have a negative impact on their child's health or would only bring them misery.

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The fact that underage marriages and child exploitation is prevalent in neighbouring “secular” India regardless of whether laws exist to prevent them or not is indicative that Sharia has never been to blame.

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Over time the more income families earned the longer they lived and the more education parents sought for their children, or the government wanted people to have, so the older the average age of marriage became and continues to become when you start adding on additional financial obligations that young adults must meet (ex. Student loans that need to be repaid, rent and car payments for those young adults moving out on their own, etc...).