Pak rebuffs US on Haqqani network crackdown

[Awesome]

If Pakistan will not help in the ISAF to close down Haqqani's safe havens in Pakistan, then the US should attack these foreigner safe havens with an accelerated drone strike program. While this may upset the Pakistani Islamic radical parties, that is better than allowing Haqqani to operate with impunity in FATA. After all, Haqqani and his forces are foreigners aren't they? They aren't Pakistani citizens or legal immigrants are they? They are violating Pakistan's sovereignty. The US will help Pakistan to regain its sovereignty over all of FATA. You are welcome!!

Nobody has changed that deal... Stick to North Waziristan and don't go bezerk killing civilians, its all good.

If we want to take over Afghanistan after you guys leave, we can do it without Haqqani too. Majority of Afghanistan's Pashtuns would side with us sooner or later and when they see the rest of the country doing India's bidding they will easily be convinced for rising up and overthrowing the government.

We want to regain sovereignty over our lands... Haqqani is probably just one of the means to Afghanistan. Remember, all thats standing between us and the Indian terror network is you guys. You can say we're showing you guys a lot of respect by not making the situation any more difficult by launching a war of our own (cover or overt) while you're around.

Anyone who can't read that Kayani is the sort of man who wants to regain all the sovereignty Musharraf had lost is a fool, its just a matter of WHEN. Look at the Operation Rah-e-Nijat Maps I posted, the region controlled by Haqqani is large and all the other operations we're conducting are more like knocking off all the surrounding support systems he has going on. To make an enemy of Haqqani right now when he's tied up with you guys is just a foolish military strategy.

More so , the Americans have admitted time and again that the threat from Haqqani Network is not more than 25% of the Taliban problem you guys got. Take care of the 75% at least till the time we get done with our other problems.

 

[Awesome]

Your emotions aside, it's not been determined just what, exactly, a great country like Pakistan can actually handle or not. More to the point, All Green, this is no recent phenomena. It's a condition that's nearly eight years old.

Actually it has been established. Pakistan launched major operations back in 2004 and 2006 and didn't get any great results because they were not specific and actually ended up in the militarization of the Mehsud tribe. We went into Wana but faced resistence from Makeen to Tank.

We barely managed to put boots on the ground in Wana but couldn't hold it.

Also not to mention the same strategies have been employed by the US and failed.

That there's nothing recent about this raises the larger question of whether Pakistan EVER intends to address sanctuary. For instance, what precludes your Ministry of the Interior from routinely and constantly issuing proclamations about the illegality of Pakistani citizens taking foreign policy into their own hands? That would make clear the GoP position and serve fair warning to the Bahadurs and Nazirs of your country who emulate these foreigners on your soil.

As mentioned earlier, we did try TWICE in much larger operations than Rah-e-Nijat and Rah-e-Rast, it didn't work. So its not like we're ignoring you folks since 2001, but yes, since Kayani took over and HE managed to get some successes while you guys have been failing to gain territory and hold it, its his right to ignore the less competent military planners telling him to go in guns blazing John Woo style

They matter just as much and, unlike the afghan taliban, are your own citizens. Since when do they have the right to influence national security and foreign policy by virtue of their weapons? So if it's not possible to attack now these groups, it seems reasonable and fair to have expected you to at least issue a big fat cease and desist lest they be attacked in the future.

They are also armed to the teeth and won't actually give in when we issue them an arrest warrant. They have to be killed. But it is impossible to kill them right now.

None of this has occurred and makes me believe that neither Nazir nor Bahadur fear recrimination from your government. Not now nor later nor ever. If they did fear such, why would they placidly continue on their way in the manner they have? Why haven't they tossed their cards in with the TTP against their eventual enemy, the GoP?

We will get them, but later. If you don't want to believe, what can we do about that. You'll just have to wait and see.

These men know that they'll always be safe so long as their activities are directed against Afghanistan. Nazir and Bahadur, Omar, Haqqani, and Hekmatyar have all been assiduous in maintaining the proper decorum with their Pakistani hosts.

Let them think that, it doesn't matter, ultimately countries do things in national interest not emotion.

Your sentiments read as heart-felt. I truly wish it were so but I see no inclination at all from your government that they, while recognizing the condition, don't see it as a problem and have made no commitment to correct it.

For the umpteenth time, we're busy!

The simple fact of the matter is that these groups are proxy tools of your government and too valuable, despite the corrosive influence they've had upon your tribal populace, to be attacked.

They are also not indispensible. Look it only makes sense going after them if you guys have actually put a dent in the Taliban. The Taliban are right now mounting operations of their own and are planning to run over Kabul as well. There's even a chance that you won't withdraw in 2011 but be forced to leave before that. Once Kabul falls, you do too. So show us that you're worth taking on an enemy like Haqqani, it shouldn't be so that we make an enemy of the Afghan Taliban then you lose against them and run away, while we're stuck to handle the problem.

 

[Ghargasht]

Nobody has changed that deal... Stick to North Waziristan and don't go bezerk killing civilians, its all good.

If we want to take over Afghanistan after you guys leave, we can do it without Haqqani too. Majority of Afghanistan's Pashtuns would side with us sooner or later and when they see the rest of the country doing India's bidding they will easily be convinced for rising up and overthrowing the government.

lol do you think pashtons are robots that you can program? The fact is the reason Pashtons sided with pakistan is cause Pakistan supported them during Afghanistan civil war...once a Pashton gov in Kabul takes a hold...then Pashton national interest and that of pakistan will collide heads on. Never forget for Pashtons pakistan is successor of their bloody enemy British Raj…no pashtons..even the taliban had ever recognized Durrand line…even when Pakistani interior minister made 3 trips to Kabul and formally asked the Taliban gov to renew the durrand treaty…they even refused to hand over the Suni extremist that were in Afghanistan who were killing Shia in pakistan.
You should study Afghanistan-pakistan history…on how the Pashton government of Zahir Shah and so on…all were siding with India…for its in their strategic interest.

We want to regain sovereignty over our lands... Haqqani is probably just one of the means to Afghanistan. Remember, all thats standing between us and the Indian terror network is you guys. You can say we're showing you guys a lot of respect by not making the situation any more difficult by launching a war of our own (cover or overt) while you're around.

This is absurd...the law, rule and regulation of pakistan does not apply in FATA...last time i was there...the Pakistani police would not dare to venture outside paved road...and it was not even wazeristan but 10 km from Peshawar. Moreover you should study more about how a proxy war is fought...the taliban could not last for a month if it was not for covert pakistan support.

Anyone who can't read that Kayani is the sort of man who wants to regain all the sovereignty Musharraf had lost is a fool, its just a matter of WHEN. Look at the Operation Rah-e-Nijat Maps I posted, the region controlled by Haqqani is large and all the other operations we're conducting are more like knocking off all the surrounding support systems he has going on. To make an enemy of Haqqani right now when he's tied up with you guys is just a foolish military strategy

.
Haqqani will be killed with our without pakistan. Mark my words!!

 

[TaimiKhan]

I don't understand the US thinking, that what they really want. They empty their bases and let Taliban capture them with weapons & ammo still in them, empty their posts with the border so that militants have a field day in crossing the border, regroup on their side and then come back again to Pakistan and attack OUR security forces, they empty whole province which was very critical to us for our fight in Bajaur with TTP and they empty it right when we where about to drive them out, we drive them out, US forces empty the province, TTP have time of their life to be supported by the local Afghan warlords who are looking after the Pakistani TTP and helping them, helping the wounded and rearming them to be back in Pakistan, Afghanistan's far flung areas have high taliban activity, areas which are hundreds of miles away from our border with US forces not able to even bring to those areas when we don't have border with those areas for hundreds of miles, and after all this US is more interested what is in Pakistan ?? Wouldn't it have been better that they had shown some performance and then come to us and say hey Pakistanis look we have now large area of Afghanistan in peace and occupied, now the border areas are left to be cleared as they get help from you guys, then it can be said a valid request. But their performance is ZERO, while they ask us to do more.

What have the US helped us when militants were fleeing from our side and still on their side with no fear to be attacked, atleast we are attacking the fleeing and hiding militants which are a priority for us.

US forces haven't done their primary task and running and whining about their secondary task. What an Army.

 

[TaimiKhan]

.
Haqqani will be killed with our without pakistan. Mark my words!!

Yeah, how you guys have so far killed OBL or his number too.

Care to elaborate how many top Taliban guys you have killed in the US occupied Afghanistan itself ???

 

[Awesome]

lol do you think pashtons are robots that you can program? The fact is the reason Pashtons sided with pakistan is cause Pakistan supported them during Afghanistan civil war...once a Pashton gov in Kabul takes a hold...then Pashton national interest and that of pakistan will collide heads on. Never forget for Pashtons pakistan is successor of their bloody enemy British Raj…no pashtons..even the taliban had ever recognized Durrand line…even when Pakistani interior minister made 3 trips to Kabul and formally asked the Taliban gov to renew the durrand treaty…they even refused to hand over the Suni extremist that were in Afghanistan who were killing Shia in pakistan.
You should study Afghanistan-pakistan history…on how the Pashton government of Zahir Shah and so on…all were siding with India…for its in their strategic interest.

Yeah but they weren't democracies. In a democracy, Pashtuns would side with Pakistan over India. If the current set up continues we can easily sponsor an armed rebellion to overthrow the Indian puppets in Kabul.

This is absurd...the law, rule and regulation of pakistan does not apply in FATA...last time i was there...the Pakistani police would not dare to venture outside paved road...and it was not even wazeristan but 10 km from Peshawar. Moreover you should study more about how a proxy war is fought...the taliban could not last for a month if it was not for covert pakistan support.

A very ignorant statement about the Taliban. Perhaps thats why we are winning against the ones we're fighting because we don't make the mistake of underestimating our enemy like that.

Haqqani will be killed with our without pakistan. Mark my words!!

Ok... Why are you telling me that? I have no issues with it. If not Haqqani, then it will be someone else. Once you guys leave we may even get Hamid Karzai to lead a rebellion

 

[Awesome]

I don't understand the US thinking, that what they really want. They empty their bases and let Taliban capture them with weapons & ammo still in them, empty their posts with the border so that militants have a field day in crossing the border, regroup on their side and then come back again to Pakistan and attack OUR security forces, they empty whole province which was very critical to us for your fight in Bajaur with TTP and they empty it right when we where about to drive them out, we drive them out, US forces empty the province, TTP have time of their life to be supported by the local Afghan warlords who are looking after the Pakistani TTP and helping them, helping the wounded and rearming them to be back in Pakistan, Afghanistan's far flung areas have high taliban activity, areas which are hundreds of miles away from our border with US forces not able to even bring to those areas when we don't have border with those areas for hundreds of miles, and after all this US is more interested what is in Pakistan ?? Wouldn't it have been better that they had shown some performance and then come to us and say hey Pakistanis look we have now large area of Afghanistan in peace and occupied, now the border areas are left to be cleared as they get help from you guys, then it can be said a valid request. But their performance is ZERO, while they ask us to do more.

What have the US helped us when militants were fleeing from our side and still on their side with no fear to be attacked, atleast we are attacking the fleeing and hiding militants which are a priority for us.

US forces haven't done their primary task and running and whining about their secondary task. What an Army.

We are at a point in the war where the US troop withdrawal may not even happen because Kabul is in the danger of being overrun by the Taliban. They showed some promise with the Surge, but its not even been approved by the American government yet and may take as long as August! Will there even be a significant ISAF presence left by then?

Operation Cobra's anger showed some promise, but now that its objectives are out, it seems more of the same. The objective is to take Nowzad and hand it back to the locals. What locals? It's Helmand for gods sakes! The locals are probably aligned to the Taliban and will hand it right back to them.

Which idiot is making up these plans, is beyond me. IMO they should takeover, stay there for an year or two, call people from Kabul and make them establish a working government. Locals would just give the keys to the city back to the Taliban!

 

[illuminatus]

If Pakistan will not help in the ISAF to close down Haqqani's safe havens in Pakistan, then the US should attack these foreigner safe havens with an accelerated drone strike program. While this may upset the Pakistani Islamic radical parties, that is better than allowing Haqqani to operate with impunity in FATA. After all, Haqqani and his forces are foreigners aren't they? They aren't Pakistani citizens or legal immigrants are they? They are violating Pakistan's sovereignty. The US will help Pakistan to regain its sovereignty over all of FATA. You are welcome!!

You're mistaken. This will upset entire Pakistan including the so-called liberals. The army and the political parties unanimously agree that extending drone attacks to other part of Pakistan simply isn't an option. Kayani's statement is testimony of this fact. The last thing Pakistan would want is to destabilize other parts of the country with violence and bloodshed at the behest of US warmongering. Also, most Pakistanis are now questioning US intentions. There is a huge trust deficit and not everyone is convinced that US intentions are kosher.

 

[illuminatus]

I don't understand the US thinking, that what they really want. They empty their bases and let Taliban capture them with weapons & ammo still in them, empty their posts with the border so that militants have a field day in crossing the border, regroup on their side and then come back again to Pakistan and attack OUR security forces, they empty whole province which was very critical to us for your fight in Bajaur with TTP and they empty it right when we where about to drive them out, we drive them out, US forces empty the province, TTP have time of their life to be supported by the local Afghan warlords who are looking after the Pakistani TTP and helping them, helping the wounded and rearming them to be back in Pakistan, Afghanistan's far flung areas have high taliban activity, areas which are hundreds of miles away from our border with US forces not able to even bring to those areas when we don't have border with those areas for hundreds of miles, and after all this US is more interested what is in Pakistan ?? Wouldn't it have been better that they had shown some performance and then come to us and say hey Pakistanis look we have now large area of Afghanistan in peace and occupied, now the border areas are left to be cleared as they get help from you guys, then it can be said a valid request. But their performance is ZERO, while they ask us to do more.

What have the US helped us when militants were fleeing from our side and still on their side with no fear to be attacked, atleast we are attacking the fleeing and hiding militants which are a priority for us.

US forces haven't done their primary task and running and whining about their secondary task. What an Army.

The sense that I'm getting is that the Americans don't have the appetite of fighting another lengthy war after Iraq. Also, as you summed it up quite nicely, the Americans now understand that this guerilla type warfare is not winnable in the long term. Even though they would openly never acknowledge this. The Bush era has been an eye-opener for most Americans. That's why many Americans voted for a black president which is unprecedented in US history. Most Americans demanded a change in strategy. They expected a full-scale withdrawal of their troops. Obama hasn't been able to deliver simply because Bush legacy hasn't allow him to do so. Also, the blame games can be attributed to frustration and irritation born out of the aforementioned. Pakistan unfortunately happens to be the black sheep. Many Pakistanis on the other hand are also questioning US intentions. Especially since the US is playing double games by siding with the certain countries, applying dubious double standards and at the same demanding to do more.

 

[S-2]

Generally, a lot of obfuscation from how FATAville isn't really Pakistani from Ghargasht. Is that true folks?

If so, then it really shouldn't matter to you that we defend ourselves from attacks by striking enemy elements within these ungoverned lands. After all, nobody controls these reaches?

Reads like Ghargasht is copping out. The maps say it's yours. Your flags fly there, do they not? So then you assume responsibility over your lands?

What have agents of the afghan taliban government been doing camped out on your lands for eight years then?

I repeat-nothing has stopped the Pakistani government from issuing a decree that using Pakistani soil from which to attack Afghanistan is illegal and will be punished in due course.

Not a bullet fired but your whole country would see how nobody but the state holds a monopoly on force and serve as fair warning to those not in abeyance that their time would come. It would also commit Pakistan in principle against these forces and force them cease and desist or face the eventual wrath of the GoP.

Not a bullet fired but the whole WORLD would see that your seriousness and commitment are only constrained by your resources. That might be correctable to speed matters up (along with your resolve to do so).

However, a continuing unwillingness by the GoP to forthrightly acknowledge its sovereign responsibilities and lead the Pakistani people in recognizing the same makes others suspicious that Pakistan intends to go after its own tribal warlords whom attack Afghanistan.

I think, were your government to do so, both Nazir and Bahadur would be extremely surprised by this declaration. How they'd react is another matter but, perhaps, it's best these issues are finally laundered properly before all.

 

[All-Green]

As you see Pakistani military... is the same mercenaries of the British Raj...who had faithfully defended imperial British even against their fallow Muslim in Iraq, Afghanistan and some even in Jerusalem.

the paksitani government can not do anything without US approve.

Moreover poor Pakistan could not even dream to energize the Jahadi gang in Afghanistan

Moreover you should study more about how a proxy war is fought...the taliban could not last for a month if it was not for covert pakistan support.

Pakistan Army is a mercenary of the British Raj!
What is it you are trying to prove except maybe hate for Pakistan Army?
My father and countless other soldiers, fought for Pakistan and not for British Raj, it is quite an insulting comment.
Maybe you know something i don't, however i suggest you take into account the countless sacrifices our soldiers have made for sake of Pakistan only, certainly not for British Raj.

So Pakistan can do nothing without US approval?
I think we have done many things without US approval and that is why our relationship has never been smooth...care to read about all the strains in Pak US relationship and it becomes evident that Pakistan has tried to pursue its own objectives within the constraints of international treaties and agreements.

Coming to Taliban, on one hand you say that Pakistan could not even energize the Afghan Jihad but on the other hand you perceive that without alleged Pakistani support the Taliban could not last for a month?
That too of the same Pakistan which you perceive to be a complete slave of US?
This is not adding up.

The Taliban dominance in the post Afghan Jihad era can be primarily attributed to only one thing, the minimal resistance offered by all the various warlords who had become tremendously unpopular due to their post Jihad civil war.
The lack of resolve of the warlords was primarily due to the public support of the initial rally cry of Taliban...restore order and end the chaos...
No agency on the world could have done this on its own...if it is possible this way then why is the USA failing to control Afghanistan...currently the strongest agency in the world is active in Afghanistan and supported by the best equipped and trained military and also joined by a powerful local group...have they achieved control similar to what the Taliban gained?
So it is not all weapons and funds...it is also about local support...perhaps the biggest factor is the local support!
The initial success of Taliban cannot be attributed to their strictness because in the warlords they faced as much battle hardened troops as any who would not pee in their pants at seeing similarly armed troops...also initially the Taliban were one with the people and careful not to step on too many toes...only later would they resort to extreme tactics not liked by common people including myself.

It was the pathetic infighting and perpetual chaos which made the people support Taliban who ensured uniformity...only once the Taliban gained firm control did they make major stupid and extreme decisions which are not practical and certainly not Islamic.
Taliban's rigid and impractical approach eventually led many to regret supporting them, but this was not the case when they initially charged like a knight in shining armor.
In conclusion, to think that the same toothless Pakistan which cannot do anything without USA is capable of making Taliban win in Afghanistan is highly inaccurate view and averse to the reality in Afghanistan...
Taliban were the fallout of Afghan civil war...they did bring about uniformity and order in the land...though at a terrible price to the individual freedom of the Afghans, still they had a lot of loyalists even till the of their reign.

Such oversimplification is what has clouded and marred the primary mission, we do not love the Taliban and i am personally disgusted at many decisions they eventually took, but to think that they were planted and had no support in Afghanistan is a single most criminal mistake any analyst can make regarding the current situation.

Moving on, the support of AQ will make any outfit a terrorist in my point of view...the hammering of the terrorist networks belonging to the TTP by Pakistan Army is sending a clear message much louder than what words alone can say, we are not going to tolerate any group supporting AQ or any form of terrorism in our land. One by one we shall sort them out.
I am glad that most shady organizations have joined hands with TTP and declared open support...gives us a chance to kill them without any conspiracy theory popping up and dividing public opinion...i am of course referring to the conspiracy theories typically of the school of thought which is always portraying anything done by Pakistan as slavery of USA.

 

[waraich66]

All-Green;586374]Pakistan Army is a mercenary of the British Raj!

We got independence but again we started begging to British and American funded banks IMF and World Bank during Sikander Mirza era and continued uptill now.

How our governments could made independent decisions if our country is under 50 Billion USD debt of IMF and World Bank?

 

[illuminatus]

We got independence but again we started begging to British and American funded banks IMF and World Bank during Sikander Mirza era and continued uptill now.

How our governments could made independent decisions if our country is under 50 Billion USD debt of IMF and World Bank?

I agree and that's part of the problem. Pakistani political establishment has after independence never changed their colonial laws and regulations unlike India. The reason why India flourished is because they changed their pre-colonial laws. Credit must go to India for that. The leaders of Pakistan have never been sincere to the interests of Pakistan.

 

[All-Green]

We got independence but again we started begging to British and American funded banks IMF and World Bank during Sikander Mirza era and continued uptill now.

How our governments could made independent decisions if our country is under 50 Billion USD debt of IMF and World Bank?

Then by virtue of agreements with IMF/World Banks or economic dependence on few...all the world is a mercenary?

Independent decisions are a very pearly term but how many countries or leaders can make all decisions independently of any factor whatsoever?
Do the economic conditions, political limitations etc. never factor into any decision made by even the best of leaders?
Seeking aid of world bank to make the hydroelectric power plants and additional irrigation system is not actually slavery...we had a lot to gain and did gain from it...it is sheer folly to call it all an ill conceived plan or willful surrender to foreign manipulation.

We all know how Pakistan started as extremely poor and did not get what was its fair share of funds due to the animosity between India and Pakistan.
Where was the British Raj then?
We had lots of problems but in the Ayub era when we entered into many agreements with World Bank we did not become pathetic but instead our economy become extremely healthy...clearly all our ills cannot simply be pinned on our economic agreements of the 50s and 60s...they were actually working...however we lost the plot on the political front eventually...which derailed the economic progress as well.

Calling our Army as mere mercenaries would imply that all our wars and military actions were at the behest of foreign powers generally or the British Raj specifically?
Thinking carefully...that is not what i can digest, it is oversimplification to say the least and clearly not at all a constructive comment in any sense.

We made good and bad decisions both, some turned in our favor and others we regret...however this does not mean that we kick logical thinking out of the box and always resort to raw emotions...cold calculations have to be made by leaders and no country can be detached from the economic reality facing it.

We made many decisions independent of what would USA or UK think about...Nuclear program for one...but many others as well...do not sell ourselves short here now...to have such fierce pride that one thinks they should defy the world all the time is not a very good trait and certainly not one which good leaders adhere to all the time.
It only leads to isolation and defeat in the long run.

Strong decision making is needed now more than ever but we should not think that all decisions we made were weak...

 

[Halaku Khan]

Yeah but they weren't democracies. In a democracy, Pashtuns would side with Pakistan over India. If the current set up continues we can easily sponsor an armed rebellion to overthrow the Indian puppets in Kabul.

Pakistan's pals in Pakistan are the Taliban. As shown by every opinion poll, the vast majority of the Afghans are highly averse to the Taliban. And you know it. That is why Pakistan needs to deny the Afghans their independence. This is the root of all problems in Afghanistan.

If you really thought Mullah Omar and Co are so popular, you would be asking them to contest democratic elections.