Pak Navy Should Reduce The # of Subs To Buy Type 054 Frigates

[wowler]

Overall I agree, but I'll caution on the point that PN wants to purely focus on submarines. The focus has more to do with limited finances than anything else. If it could, it would have ordered a fair number of modern frigates as well.

Yep buddy i understand.
PN is actually unfortunate in terms of budget.
But still i am in with the decision of buying submarines instead of surface fleets because that is only solution for pakistan because of budget.
Lets see how the things span out over the years for PN.

Hi,

The sub's presence will be noted the moment the first torpedo tube is flooded with sea water just before the launch.

Yep i agree with you.

A serious question
What do you think is the saubmarine big enough for SLCM capability? because i don't think so seriously.

 

[araz]

The news quoted by a Pakistani poster on Sinodefence.today is that PN order includes 8 subs. 6 type F22P frigates(modified but specs not ascertained ) and lease of 2-3 frigates possibly jiangwe 053H3. If true it points to a change in the direction that PN is taking. There may be some missile boats as well. I dont have a source but according to the gentleman the deals were signed during the Chinese Premier's visit.
Araz

 

[Blue Marlin]

Ok thats it, the recent deal of 8 subs is only for subs.

from my analysis its a $4 billion deal for 8 subs, thats $500 million each

now if you compare physically the s20 with aip to a scorpene the s20 is significantly larger. india is paying $760+ million each sub with tot for each scorpene sub. so $500 million each with tot is an amazing deal for the 20 sub
if i was the navy chief would i swap one or two subs for ships? " no. But i do need ships though. but i need subs more, as there are strategic and a matter of nation security and give us a second strike capability."

 

[Quwa]

Ok thats it, the recent deal of 8 subs is only for subs.

from my analysis its a $4 billion deal for 8 subs, thats $500 million each

now if you compare physically the s20 with aip to a scorpene the s20 is significantly larger. india is paying $760+ million each sub with tot for each scorpene sub. so $500 million each with tot is an amazing deal for the 20 sub
if i was the navy chief would i swap one or two subs for ships? " no. But i do need ships though. but i need subs more, as there are strategic and a matter of nation security and give us a second strike capability."

Let's wait for official details.

The news quoted by a Pakistani poster on Sinodefence.today is that PN order includes 8 subs. 6 type F22P frigates(modified but specs not ascertained ) and lease of 2-3 frigates possibly jiangwe 053H3. If ttlrue it po8nts to a change in the direction that PN is taking. There may be some m8ssile boats as well. I dont have a source but according to the gentleman the deals were signed during the Chinese Premier's visit.
Araz

That specific post was pretty old, but it is possible that it is more or less on the mark as far as the facts are concerned. I just hope it's not F-22P or improved F-22P or whatever, it needs to be CSOC's 3500-4000 ton 'High Performance Frigate' with 32-cell VLS ... *fingers crossed*

 

[ziaulislam]

These systems aren't mature enough to defend a submarine from aerial threats, yet. These are hardly a replacement for air-defense frigates/destroyers.

definitely not a replacement for frigates, the multirole of nature of surface vessels cannot be replaced by subs.
the point was that subs are no longer sitting ducks for advance anti sub airborne platforms.

 

[araz]

Let's wait for official details.


That specific post was pretty old, but it is possible that it is more or less on the mark as far as the facts are concerned. I just hope it's not F-22P or improved F-22P or whatever, it needs to be CSOC's 3500-4000 ton 'High Performance Frigate' with 32-cell VLS ... *fingers crossed*

As to the post I merely quoted the poster. As to F22p I think what the PN is aiming for is conformity between platforms as different layouts means years of training and familiarity. The F 22ps might not be very advanced but the newer versions would be closer to 054s in capabilities. What eventually happens is upto the PN and the Chinese. Lets wait and see.
Araz

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

We are all discussing if Subs can be replaced by some other platform... This is not likely as sub gives critical advantage.
The issue is what kind of offensive weapon can be fired... Pakistan requires to complete the requirements of second strike hence sub force needs to be increased.

On the other hand Pakistan Army is developing stand off weapons and battle field nuclear missiles...Will some variant of these be naval...no one knows. If this does eventually became reality it would be a game changer.

Hi,

There is an issue with pak navy---. It does not have a potent frigate---. The F22 P are lightweight Frigates---.

The navy must have something that is heavier and more potent. The thing is that the situation in the region is changing by the day---on one side is India and on the other side is Iran coming into the game as a new player.
The Arabian sea is suddenly going to get crowded and there will be power positioning in the region. The U S navy is going to be pulling out its aircraft carrier out of the region pretty soon and with Gwadar port coming into operation---pak navy does need the presence of a stronger surface fleet.

Pakistan navy should reconsider the purchase of 8 submarine---and reduce it by 2 or 3 at this time. It should rather invest 1 billion dollars in 2 TYPE 054 Frigates and 3--4 upgraded version of Type F22P class frigates.

In 2 to 3 years from now---it can increase the order for the submarines.

Well i believe that out of the 8,we should dedicate 4 of them only for 2nd strike.

Each Sub with atleast 12xBabur SLCM

Total 48xBabur SLCM deep within the sea with each Babur having warhead of upto 90-140KT yield

you must have hit your head on something hard. frigates are easy targets whilst subs are not. a sub can stop ship leaving a port whilst a frigate cant and will get hit and sink. i think Pakistan should buy/develop some more subs. this should hold of any navy. and from my reading Pakistan navy have got something in for the aircraft carrier.

No sledging please.
Everyone has the right to put up his opinion.

We need Subs at this point of time as part of our second strike capability.
Frigates will follow....

As much as I like PN to possess a large surface fleet, our fleet didn't fair off do well. Only the submarine fleet saved our face, not to mention detecting submarine is costlier, hence puts pressure financially on our rivals.

From what i know, there is a long term plan in the making for the PN. The reason to go for 8 submarines is that soon you'll be having 2 Agosta 70s retiring, meaning by the time first Chinese sub is delivered, you'll be down to just 3 Agosta 90s, which will be nearing their refits (first boat made in 1999). Submarines will take a long time to sign, assemble and then sea trial. So the Idea is that you will have a minimum of 4 boats, and then every year or so you add 1, for a total of 11 AIP boats.....out of which at anytime 8-9 would be available for Patrol. Now that is a decent submarine fleet going in 2020s.

Ships on the other hand can be procured at anytime. PN knows that it doesn't have any heavy duty frigates, and that OHP debacle really thew the spanners in the work. So unless they get 5 more OHPs and get them something like GENESIS upgrade in the next couple of years, i don't see the US route happening. So Ships too will come from China.
Now the quoted figures for Submarine deal is 4-5 billions, which comes to about 700 million USD per boat.....that is an outrageously high cost for a 2500 ton sub class....you can have Scorpene/Type 214 in that money. So i think the deal involves some ships as well, improved F-22ps or Type54. But since the source would be China, and they have some really credible offerings for ships, i think PN considers Submarines more of a headache to customize and assemble than ships. Submarine technology is a whole lot different engineering than Ships. So when they see fit, they can order the ships and fast track them. I think China would be generously financing the loans on low interest, because a sizeable navy in Pakistan's own hands assures them that IN is kept busy on that front as well as the fast growing Chinese navy.

But at the end of the day, no one can deny that 5000ton air-defence frigates are the need of the hour along with a potent land based aircraft strike force.

 

[Blue Marlin]

We are all discussing if Subs can be replaced by some other platform... This is not likely as sub gives critical advantage.
The issue is what kind of offensive weapon can be fired... Pakistan requires to complete the requirements of second strike hence sub force needs to be increased.

On the other hand Pakistan Army is developing stand off weapons and battle field nuclear missiles...Will some variant of these be naval...no one knows. If this does eventually became reality it would be a game changer.

lets just say this transaction does not include frigates. but it may contain surface ships that can be used to communicate to the subs and can possibly refuel/replenish supplies at sea. i heard this from a good source. but i doubt it

 

[Rashid Mahmood]

We are all discussing if Subs can be replaced by some other platform... This is not likely as sub gives critical advantage.
The issue is what kind of offensive weapon can be fired... Pakistan requires to complete the requirements of second strike hence sub force needs to be increased.

On the other hand Pakistan Army is developing stand off weapons and battle field nuclear missiles...Will some variant of these be naval...no one knows. If this does eventually became reality it would be a game changer.

It is a game changer.....

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

hi Syed,

Roughly about a 1 billion or 1.25 billions for surface ships.

Sir,
This amount is no problem as the financial situation is improving day by day. You would see some good news coming in few more months.

The issue currently being faced by Pakistan is to get the best Surface Ships and that too new so there are a few options being looked at that include Chinese, Korean and Turkish platforms.

 

[PHIL Yuan]

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

For a few years yes.

agreed give it about 3-4 years for a frigate deal to materialise

The issue of getting them is based on the best available one. To understand how Pakistan's budget works then you have to consider that there are ways to increase it during a financial year...Along with other resources that are available form other sources.

The deal of Frigates would not be more than USD 2 Billion, which would be divided over a period of 7-10 years. This is very much payable with the current budget.

Ships will follow, but I can't name a specific type.

Sir,
Do you have any update to the offers that came from Turkey and Korea to expand infrastructure during last IDEAS Expo.

 

[Rashid Mahmood]

The issue of getting them is based on the best available one. To understand how Pakistan's budget works then you have to consider that there are ways to increase it during a financial year...Along with other resources that are available form other sources.

The deal of Frigates would not be more than USD 2 Billion, which would be divided over a period of 7-10 years. This is very much payable with the current budget.



Sir,
Do you have any update to the offers that came from Turkey and Korea to expand infrastructure during last IDEAS Expo.

No formal offers came.
Promotional offers are always around.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

We are expected to get 3 OHP

Sir,

The OHP deal is dead... PN is more interested in Turkish Milgem Class and F-22P's. No doubt the Genesis upgrade would have given the OHP a life of an other 10-15 year unfortunately it was too expensive hence scraped. There are equivalent equipment at a much lower cost available and PN is looking at those.

There is news that Turkey is also considering to transfer its technology and equipment though that too is expensive as compared to Chinese. What kind of systems would PN choose is yet to be seen.

The news quoted by a Pakistani poster on Sinodefence.today is that PN order includes 8 subs. 6 type F22P frigates(modified but specs not ascertained ) and lease of 2-3 frigates possibly jiangwe 053H3. If true it points to a change in the direction that PN is taking. There may be some missile boats as well. I dont have a source but according to the gentleman the deals were signed during the Chinese Premier's visit.
Araz

Sir,
What I came to know is the F22P that PN was operating was having some issues and the new ones that are going to be made would have those issues removed. There are some sources that claim these new F22P would be purpose build for a particular task but I have my doubts. F22P is not able to defend itself from an air attack and that needs to be addressed.

There was a post regarding the missile boat's but an other type of frigate is new lets see if it is true.

No formal offers came.
Promotional offers are always around.

Thanks ...

 

[Blue Marlin]

The issue of getting them is based on the best available one. To understand how Pakistan's budget works then you have to consider that there are ways to increase it during a financial year...Along with other resources that are available form other sources.

The deal of Frigates would not be more than USD 2 Billion, which would be divided over a period of 7-10 years. This is very much payable with the current budget.



Sir,
Do you have any update to the offers that came from Turkey and Korea to expand infrastructure during last IDEAS Expo.

to increase the budge you need to better the economy. and your getting there. but actually i think it would take about 5-6 years for a large deal to materialise. most likely it would be for type 54a/b frigates.