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Pak may never try another Kargil, but it could get worse

RAZ PAK

in reply to your trol post re MIGS crashing

WHO HOLDS SAICHEN GLACIER ???

WHO HOLDS KARGIL ??
 
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In July 1947, a secret meeting between the raja – maharajas of Kangra Valley was held in Srinagar. It was decided in this meeting that in collaboration with Rashtria Sevak Sangh (RSS) that Kashmir would be ethnically cleansed from Muslims. And in this Indian leaders were clear partners. A plan in this regard was hatched in Amritsar in partnership with Dogra Army. The decisions reached included initiation of mass killings from Poonch where Muslims were in majority. Armed Hindus and Sikhs in large numbers were moved from Punjab and they arrived in Jammu. The weapons were also supplied from Amritsar. The Hindu officers of Riyasat of Kashmir were ordered to provide all the support.

Even Sikhs from NWFP Province came in large numbers and they also flamed the situation by providing, often completely wrong information about murder of Sikhs in NWFP. An ammunition storage point was also created in Baramula.

And all this was happening much before the Pathans intruded in Kashmir.

These are no conspiracy theories but are facts which are now part of the history and can be referenced.

Now you may not agree with this. Perfectly alright. For Pakistanis here, I also recommend reading a book written by Ahmed Shuja Pasha, Late (not the ISI DG, who was probably named after this gentleman), Masla-e-Kashmir, published by Sang-e-Meel Publications, Lahore. Mr. Ahmed Shuja Pasha was one of the greatest writers this country has produced. He wrote over 50 different books and also published two Dewans. A marvelous writer indeed.

Please read enough before you rant.
 
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Junagarh and Manavadar was the first Riyasat to formally seek its accession to Pakistan. Its population was about 700,000. It was located about 300 miles away from Karachi along Indian coast. When Pakistan informed India about the acceptance of accession by Pakistan, Pandit Mountbatten sent a telegram to Quad-e-Azam and strongly protested on accepting the accession. He said that India takes this as interference in her internal affairs. He also mentioned that this goes against the development of friendly relations between the two countries and also goes against the principles of division of India. Ironic isn’t it!

The Indian government also said that the problem between India and Junagarh-Manavadar should be solved between the two and that it should be decided through holding a plebiscite. Pakistan was not to be included in this plebiscite, with whom the accession was requested.

When this was not agreed to, a blockade of Junagarh and Manavadar was put in place by India. An attack to invade and capture the state was planned. So-called volunteers were collected, organized and supported by Indian Army, provided ammunition and even armoured cars. The state was invaded and captured.

This is the fact of history. You all can rant and continue ranting.
 
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Joe Shearer,

The Tehsil of Shakargarh had 56.3% Muslims and was given to the Pakistan by Rad Cliff. The adjoining Tehsil of Batala had 55.07% Muslims and Tehsil of Gurdaspur had 56.1% Muslims, but these two were given to India. Why, because India would have had no access to Kashmir without Gurdaspur. Rad Cliff's secretary had published his diary and papers some years ago and he had given clear evidence of the mal-intent not only of Rad cliff but also Mountbatten. Lord Birdwood have clearly talked about it in his book. Sir Conrad Corfield, Viceroy's adviser resigned on this issue and left, also wrote about it.

How all this was manipulated has been written and accepted by many of those who were part of the planned conspiracy to allow India to acquire Kashmir. I can bring in tons of references as well, but like I said before, you will have your own version of history and I may not agree with you.


The business of organizing for independence and for its aftermath was not conducted in a vacuum jar but in the real world. Nothing can be easier to believe than that there should have been discussion of a possibility that Kashmir might opt for India. There were only two practical choices that the Maharaja had, after all, and given that his tallest political leader was openly for Congress, there was little doubt about where the decision might go. That this should have been discussed, and that obvious impediments to such a choice, such as blocking off access to the Valley, should have been avoided by minor adjustments is not difficult to believe at all, and I do not understand why such a cloak of mystery and intrigue is being sought to be drawn across it. Similar adjustments were made in the east, where the Chittagong Hills went to Pakistan in the face of what might have been expected from a purely communal point of view, because applying the same principles as had been applied in the west made it clear that the tract could not have survived in practical terms so widely separated from the rest of India. Not even through being connected through what in later years came to be known as the state of Mizoram.

There was no mystery and no conspiracy about what has been described, only common sense. The only complicdations were due to Hari Singh holding out for a recognition of his heir as his heir, a recognition that he feared would not be forthcoming for reasons that the whole of polite society knew but did not speak about openly. Except for that aberration, the whole matter would have been done with smoothly and without the huge complications that followed.

A bit about Sheikh Abdullah. He was blamed by the Kashmiris in those days as a Qadiyani, many known Kashmiri leaders of the time publicly accused him of being so and his support base had eroded to a great extent. And if you understand the Muslim psyche, you would know how Muslims would have reacted then about these pronouncements. His theory of joining India was based on what he said on many occasions that, Kashmiris will be absorbed by Punjabis if they joined Pakistan and would therefore lose their identity. he wanted to become an all India leader like Nehru and Ghaffar Khan etc and he could not have gained such a stature in pakistan because his own people accused him of being a Qadiyani.

You are aware of course that this was then and continues to be to this day a favourite way of character assassination in Pakistan, and with all who have the same mindset. Allama Iqbal was also accused of being Qadiani, with far greater justification, considering his elder brother's open profession, and his own choice of school for his eldest son.

It was only the then Mirwaiz, and a small coterie in the National Conference that promoted this calumny, and it was only those in the Mirpur belt, entirely Punjabi in its orientation and composition, where Kashmiri is not even spoken, that took any notice of this. You can see for yourself the extent and dimensions of this belt, and you can hear for yourself their linguistic affinities, if you care to find out.

I would not like to continue with this anymore please.

I'll stop here as I know this is not going to go anywhere.

Lets move on express ourselves on current topics. :)

Please suit yourself, and please leave me to take my own decisions.

Joe Shearer,

You are doing the same thing you accused me of. You were wrong then and you are wrong even now.

You have now started ranting - yes ranting. :)

Nassr said very aptly in another thread and I agree wholeheartedly with him;

In my opinion, nuclear powers with strong armed forces like Pakistan and India, Kargil and 62 are setbacks and are not defeats.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...tegic-thinking-pakistan-13.html#ixzz22fHiJGt0

And you can just speculate about the bigger objectives set-forth for Kargil. You and I can just speculate - how do you know that some of these bigger objectives may have been achieved. It could have been a precursor to something else. We can just speculate and create doubts not only in our mind but also in the minds of others.

So stop ranting unnecessarily, particularly when you don't have an answer.

Is it so difficult to believe that the inclination of a section of Pakistani society to blame every possible external agency, everything other than mistakes made by the national leadership, can bring even the most rational person to wonder how long and how deep this self-pity will last?

As for my ranting, I take shelter behind Horace: ridentem vicere verum quid vetat?
 
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The business of organizing for independence and for its aftermath was not conducted in a vacuum jar but in the real world. Nothing can be easier to believe than that there should have been discussion of a possibility that Kashmir might opt for India. There were only two practical choices that the Maharaja had, after all, and given that his tallest political leader was openly for Congress, there was little doubt about where the decision might go. That this should have been discussed, and that obvious impediments to such a choice, such as blocking off access to the Valley, should have been avoided by minor adjustments is not difficult to believe at all, and I do not understand why such a cloak of mystery and intrigue is being sought to be drawn across it. Similar adjustments were made in the east, where the Chittagong Hills went to Pakistan in the face of what might have been expected from a purely communal point of view, because applying the same principles as had been applied in the west made it clear that the tract could not have survived in practical terms so widely separated from the rest of India. Not even through being connected through what in later years came to be known as the state of Mizoram.

There was no mystery and no conspiracy about what has been described, only common sense. The only complicdations were due to Hari Singh holding out for a recognition of his heir as his heir, a recognition that he feared would not be forthcoming for reasons that the whole of polite society knew but did not speak about openly. Except for that aberration, the whole matter would have been done with smoothly and without the huge complications that followed.



You are aware of course that this was then and continues to be to this day a favourite way of character assassination in Pakistan, and with all who have the same mindset. Allama Iqbal was also accused of being Qadiani, with far greater justification, considering his elder brother's open profession, and his own choice of school for his eldest son.

It was only the then Mirwaiz, and a small coterie in the National Conference that promoted this calumny, and it was only those in the Mirpur belt, entirely Punjabi in its orientation and composition, where Kashmiri is not even spoken, that took any notice of this. You can see for yourself the extent and dimensions of this belt, and you can hear for yourself their linguistic affinities, if you care to find out.



Please suit yourself, and please leave me to take my own decisions.



Is it so difficult to believe that the inclination of a section of Pakistani society to blame every possible external agency, everything other than mistakes made by the national leadership, can bring even the most rational person to wonder how long and how deep this self-pity will last?

As for my ranting, I take shelter behind Horace: ridentem vicere verum quid vetat?

Well Sir,

The real-politik that you describe having been practiced then by India, before 1947, was practiced by Pakistan in the aftermath of 1947. You still can not claim Kashmir freely joining India then, and be part of India even today. It still is a disputed territory and that is the reality, despite an attempt by India to organize the independence with an inclusion of Kashmir. You are still fighting to retain it even after 60 years. How long will it take - As Long As it Takes!

If you think that the space of supporting and using Mujahideen in Kashmir has finished, think again. The real-politik will play its course again and again till it reaches a reachable conclusion.

Character assassination is a Pakistani resort. You can repeat such rants as and when you want. I doesn't make any difference and can not change the reality. Yes at certain stage, people did say that Iqbal was also a Qadiyani. It didn't fix and he went on to become a great Pakistani, revered by all and sundry. Where does Sheikh Abdullah stand in majority of Kashmiris, ask them and they will tell you. There are still some Kashmiri Muslims who still support him and his family, but majority hates him and his family. You guys live in a make believing world. It doesn't matter to us.

Rants against Pakistani society are not going to work as well. Inclination of Indian society of blaming every thing that bedevils India doesn't enter your mind does it when you blame others.

Indian Military Intelligence operative Col Parohits or whatever his name is, has clearly stated that his bombing of Samjhota Express which killed innocent Pakistanis was in the know of his superiors. It is Kosher and acceptable for Indians and they would tend to hide it and would not agree to it. But the fact is that there are Hindu fundamentalist Indians who are running their own campaign against their own minorities, including your political leaders. Hashimpura like incidents don't sadden you enough and political leaders like Chidambaram are hailed as heroes for killing your own Indian Muslims to teach them a lesson.

Sharam to nayee dulhan ki tarha gunghat nikal ke pass se nikal jaati hogi - nahin?
 
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In July 1947, a secret meeting between the raja – maharajas of Kangra Valley was held in Srinagar. It was decided in this meeting that in collaboration with Rashtria Sevak Sangh (RSS) that Kashmir would be ethnically cleansed from Muslims. And in this Indian leaders were clear partners. A plan in this regard was hatched in Amritsar in partnership with Dogra Army. The decisions reached included initiation of mass killings from Poonch where Muslims were in majority. Armed Hindus and Sikhs in large numbers were moved from Punjab and they arrived in Jammu. The weapons were also supplied from Amritsar. The Hindu officers of Riyasat of Kashmir were ordered to provide all the support.

Even Sikhs from NWFP Province came in large numbers and they also flamed the situation by providing, often completely wrong information about murder of Sikhs in NWFP. An ammunition storage point was also created in Baramula.

And all this was happening much before the Pathans intruded in Kashmir.

These are no conspiracy theories but are facts which are now part of the history and can be referenced.

Now you may not agree with this. Perfectly alright. For Pakistanis here, I also recommend reading a book written by Ahmed Shuja Pasha, Late (not the ISI DG, who was probably named after this gentleman), Masla-e-Kashmir, published by Sang-e-Meel Publications, Lahore. Mr. Ahmed Shuja Pasha was one of the greatest writers this country has produced. He wrote over 50 different books and also published two Dewans. A marvelous writer indeed.

Please read enough before you rant.

And none of this happened? One wonders at the vast amount of effort that seems to have gone on everywhere, to throttle the infant state at birth.

As Caesar put it somewhere, homines libenter quod volunt credunt. Do you do likewise.

Junagarh and Manavadar was the first Riyasat to formally seek its accession to Pakistan. Its population was about 700,000. It was located about 300 miles away from Karachi along Indian coast. When Pakistan informed India about the acceptance of accession by Pakistan, Pandit Mountbatten sent a telegram to Quad-e-Azam and strongly protested on accepting the accession. He said that India takes this as interference in her internal affairs. He also mentioned that this goes against the development of friendly relations between the two countries and also goes against the principles of division of India. Ironic isn’t it!

The Indian government also said that the problem between India and Junagarh-Manavadar should be solved between the two and that it should be decided through holding a plebiscite. Pakistan was not to be included in this plebiscite, with whom the accession was requested.

When this was not agreed to, a blockade of Junagarh and Manavadar was put in place by India. An attack to invade and capture the state was planned. So-called volunteers were collected, organized and supported by Indian Army, provided ammunition and even armoured cars. The state was invaded and captured.

This is the fact of history. You all can rant and continue ranting.

I have nothing to add to my account as briefly given already. It is convenient that you omit the intermediate occurrences, the refusal of Babarwadia and Mangrol to rubber-stamp the Nawab's decision, the forcible occupation by the Nawab's troops of two sovereign principalities, the reversal of the accession by the Nawab's Dewan, in the absence of the Nawab himself, who had fled to Karachi.

But I have already quoted Caesar on the subject of those who believe whatever they wish to believe.
 
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Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius. Was what we did - and it happened.
 
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RAZ PAK

in reply to your trol post re MIGS crashing

WHO HOLDS SAICHEN GLACIER ???

WHO HOLDS KARGIL ??

You seem upset, Indian.


kargilvictory.jpg
 
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Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius. Was what we did - and it happened.

Why did you have to clothe it in Latin? This has already been said famously by great Muslim scholars of Akbar's court, and it would have looked so nice in Urdu.

Do you know anything about the Cathars or was this a random acquisition?
 
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Why did you have to clothe it in Latin? This has already been said famously by great Muslim scholars of Akbar's court, and it would have looked so nice in Urdu.

Do you know anything about the Cathars or was this a random acquisition?

Loud mouth.

Little substance...
 
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Joe Shearer,

You now quote, "homines libenter quod volunt credunt".

Didn't I say something similar when you started this discussion.

But then, all of us learn for the better - me inclusive.

Loud mouth.

Little substance...

Because the face and experience of the person who posts here is not visible to you, it does not mean that you are the only knowledgeable one hanging around. So shut up and move on instead of resorting to personal abuse.
 
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Well Sir,

The real-politik that you describe having been practiced then by India, before 1947, was practiced by Pakistan in the aftermath of 1947. You still can not claim Kashmir freely joining India then, and be part of India even today. It still is a disputed territory and that is the reality, despite an attempt by India to organize the independence with an inclusion of Kashmir. You are still fighting to retain it even after 60 years. How long will it take - As Long As it Takes!

If you think that the space of supporting and using Mujahideen in Kashmir has finished, think again. The real-politik will play its course again and again till it reaches a reachable conclusion.

Character assassination is a Pakistani resort. You can repeat such rants as and when you want. I doesn't make any difference and can not change the reality. Yes at certain stage, people did say that Iqbal was also a Qadiyani. It didn't fix and he went on to become a great Pakistani, revered by all and sundry. Where does Sheikh Abdullah stand in majority of Kashmiris, ask them and they will tell you. There are still some Kashmiri Muslims who still support him and his family, but majority hates him and his family. You guys live in a make believing world. It doesn't matter to us.

Rants against Pakistani society are not going to work as well. Inclination of Indian society of blaming every thing that bedevils India doesn't enter your mind does it when you blame others.

Indian Military Intelligence operative Col Parohits or whatever his name is, has clearly stated that his bombing of Samjhota Express which killed innocent Pakistanis was in the know of his superiors. It is Kosher and acceptable for Indians and they would tend to hide it and would not agree to it. But the fact is that there are Hindu fundamentalist Indians who are running their own campaign against their own minorities, including your political leaders. Hashimpura like incidents don't sadden you enough and political leaders like Chidambaram are hailed as heroes for killing your own Indian Muslims to teach them a lesson.

Sharam to nayee dulhan ki tarha gunghat nikal ke pass se nikal jaati hogi - nahin?

Please feel free to continue just as you wish. Your state does not seem to agree, and more and more people seem to have abandoned the idea that the pleasantries you have outlined will achieve anything other than further weaken your weakened state. In case you have not noticed, there is not much that you can achieve any longer, using either violence or calumny.

Perhaps rhodomontades on the Internet make up for failures in real life. You are to be congratulated on the brilliant battle you have fought here.
 
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