Pak may never try another Kargil, but it could get worse

[karan.1970]

Twice the losses, downed planes and helo and months of efforts from 30k strong army + 10 squadrons of airforce with NO military achievement over roughly 4k fighters, who had no support from Pakistan Army or PAF, until Pakistan withdrew is considered strategic victory while Pakistan still holds the most important point 5353?

Gives a whole new meaning to the word 'Strategic Victory'. Fact is, all you got was diplomatic victory, as always.

ever wondered how India was able to get Pakistanis militants evicted from the Kargil heights (militarily and/or diplomatically) within a few months and why Pakistan despite crying a river for last 28 years and having attempted multiple tiimes in late 80's has not managed to gain an inch of what India captured in 1984 in Siachen. ? That is called a strategic victory.. You guys are too stuck in the jingoistic mind set of martial race.. You dont care whether you meet your pre planned objectives or not as long as some military pride is salvagable... No wonder Pakistan finds itself in the predicament it does today..

We occupy key positions that can close indian national highway, we hurt indian units very badly - loses of of up to 70% both KIA and wounded, again feel sorry for the young indian soldiers that died in agony, from being wounded, my abiding memories of that conflict.

....................

Leaving most of the crap posted here on this thread..

The war is simple to sum up..
In the first few weeks of the war .. due to surprise.. Pakistan held high ground overlooking IA supply lines.
And was able to wreak havoc on a jugular of the IA's Kashmir ops.
However.. like all misadventures before it.. the PA under Musharraf only thought of the first few weeks.. and not what would happen when the giant woke up..
the result was that the infiltrators and regular troops took a pounding by the IAF..
They were still kept supplied so they could have held out(only JUST..but casualty figures before the withdrawal were below what was expected..testament of PA medevac pilots).. but the Indian leadership clearly told ours that the war would not stay in Kargil for long..that the LOC would be breached and an all out exchange was possible. This shook up the PA command as they(as usual) had not planned for things not going according to plan.. and Nawaz Sharif was told by a nervous Musharraf to go and ask the US to intervene.
When the US simply said that the PA must
withdraw back to its previous positions Musharaaf complied.. but since there was no cease fire... so when the IA took those peaks back.. they had the higher ground..
and literally mowed down our retreating troops.(of the approx 4500 lost by PA.. 2/3rds were during the retreat).
Men and equipment had to be left behind..
And the Zee Tv propaganda machine did the rest

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

We occupy key positions that can close indian national highway, we hurt indian units very badly - loses of of up to 70% both KIA and wounded, again feel sorry for the young indian soldiers that died in agony, from being wounded, my abiding memories of that conflict.

from where are you going to launch an attack ?

from point 5353 which is on line of control ?

 

[Executioner]

Again and again you want to tell us how Bengalis used you like cheap ****** and tossed you aside when the objective was achieved? What could you have done if Pakistan wasn't fighting Pakistan in 1971? Literally, what could you do in 1965 when you got your ***** handed to you by an army 1/3rd of your Army? I mean, 4k odd fighters raped your military + airforce for 2 months and all you could do was cry to the world to save your dignity, good thing for you NS caved and ordered a retreat........by the way you know what retreat means, right?

even in 2001/2 you rushed in first to amass 700-800k soldiers at our border only to piss your own pants when you saw the reaction from our side. You had to unilaterally disengage and withdraw your forces. Surgical strikes, another joke from Indian jokers. Big talk and NO action defines India!

Again and again and in future you will fucked and still you are fucked, killing your own people, you are in deep $hit. Lol they used us or you were using them, you orthodox minded people. But how you won the war when Pakistan initiated it by doing Operation Gibraltar. Shall I post Videos from Pakistani media who begged to Superpowers to have Ceasefire from Pakistani media. (Because Pakistan ran out of 80% ammuntion in 2 Weeks and could move further than Khemkaran losing 3 times more land to India what they actually captured including outskirts of Lahore.)





I think A.Khan explain enough.

In 2001 When it comes to rescuing it was Americans all the way to help their cute little ground labourers.And people now forget all that and starts blaming yankees....
OOhh well,it doesnt make any difference if yanks supports pak or not,India can still achieve its own objectives likes it did single handedly in 71 Splitting Pak into TWO while the whole world including all off west,China and many asian countries supported pak in multi lateral ways. Remember PNS mehran

 

[modern_newton]

Nice Discussion??Seriously???

Hindus were peaceful people living in Indian Subcontinent they may be JAAHIL as your history say but they were more HUMAN than Wild Tribals muslim invaders.




Vedic Dharm & Rigveda are atleast 3000 year old than Quran & Bible but the Hinduism that they taught has never known for bloodshed or human slaughter like its counter parts are known as.
We would be ashamed of our tradition if it was like any of them.

We dont stand in this league.Among most peaceful religions in world, Buddhism & Hinduism always leads.where does you islamic tradition stands in peaceful thing??

I agree with most points but this drama about India being the peaceful nation and Pakistan being the aggressors is bullshit. The root of all wars between Pakistani and India lie in aggression and hypocrite attitude of India. Kargil can not be understood without looking at the bigger picture of which it is a part. This Kargil region has traded hands a number of times, in the aftermath of the number of wars we've had with India.

Kashmir was and is an unjust occupation, one from a number of remnants of the partition. India's access to Kashmir was maintained by denying Pakistan Firozpur, which was a Muslim majority area, and belonged to Pakistan if the principles the partition was supposed to be carried out under were to be followed(Firozpur would also have given Pakistan one well-supplied garrison, which the British were against - it is a historic fact that British artillery guns were dumped off the Karachi sea port, rather than given to Pak).

Taking advantage of our weak military and financial position, our adversary maintained a hypocritical stance, occupying Kashmir because the Hindu ruler of a Muslim majority area voted for India, while occupying Hyderabad where a Muslim ruler of a Hindu-majority ruler voted for Pakistan. Many other areas, such as Junagadh and Manavadar also voted for Pakistan, but were anexed in utter disregard of the principles of the partition by India, because we were weak. The complete and utter lack of any concrete British response or action to all this can only be taken as evidence of their impartiality in hindsight. Their last viceroy was commanding British forces in Kashmir, while the British officers in Pakistan refused to follow orders.

How can any self-respecting nation accept such treachery. Whenever we are in a weak position, this country tries to victimize it. From 1965, where they crossed the international border and attacked at what they thought was a defenseless Lahore after Pakistan's activities at a ceasefire line(the Israelis broke their ceasefire and redefined the areas under their control three times, under this same UN that berates us). In '71 they again crossed an international border and split off our province - and the mukthi bahini were trained on Indian soil. In the 80's when the Soviets were amassing armour across our western border the Indians followed suit on our east, trying to take advantage of our weak situation again. Even now, weaponry from Indian ordinance factories is frequently recovered in the tribal areas.

How am I supposed to feel when SU-30s with full armament cross my country's international border after a hostile country conducted a ridiculous sham attack in some hotel in Bombay where 7 men take over a 300-room building for almost a week(with the Indian police/military unable to make a move... comeon, THREE-HUNDRED rooms, those 7 men couldn't even logistically cover an area half that big) and the concrete evidence they come up with to blame Pak for that is that the terrorists carried *sacks* full of Pakistani products(sufi soap, rooh-Afza).

Every single time our adversary has gotten an opportunity to stab us in the back, they have done it. Exactly according to the chankiya philosophy that they follow. How is any Pakistani supposed to feel when they look at this colorful history of deceit. India is perhaps the only country in the world that has disputes with each and every country surrounding it.

 

[Rafi]

We did what we needed to, we did not want to exterminate the wave after wave of indian soldiers that charged our positions, but they kept coming and dying, our GPMG's barrels glowed red, and had to be changed - but the indians still came to die, gallant in death, the wounded indians suffered terribly, their cries still sound like ghosts in the dark.

 

[Darth Vader]

Pak may never Try Another kargil But if they start India will be gang raped by Pakistani Soldiers and it will get worse and they(india) will go to UN and start crying like 1948 65 1999 =))) so plz now close this thread =))

 

[Joe Shearer]

I agree with most points but this drama about India being the peaceful nation and Pakistan being the aggressors is bullshit. The root of all wars between Pakistani and India lie in aggression and hypocrite attitude of India. Kargil can not be understood without looking at the bigger picture of which it is a part. This Kargil region has traded hands a number of times, in the aftermath of the number of wars we've had with India.

Kashmir was and is an unjust occupation, one from a number of remnants of the partition. India's access to Kashmir was maintained by denying Pakistan Firozpur, which was a Muslim majority area, and belonged to Pakistan if the principles the partition was supposed to be carried out under were to be followed(Firozpur would also have given Pakistan one well-supplied garrison, which the British were against - it is a historic fact that British artillery guns were dumped off the Karachi sea port, rather than given to Pak).

Taking advantage of our weak military and financial position, our adversary maintained a hypocritical stance, occupying Kashmir because the Hindu ruler of a Muslim majority area voted for India, while occupying Hyderabad where a Muslim ruler of a Hindu-majority ruler voted for Pakistan. Many other areas, such as Junagadh and Manavadar also voted for Pakistan, but were anexed in utter disregard of the principles of the partition by India, because we were weak. The complete and utter lack of any concrete British response or action to all this can only be taken as evidence of their impartiality in hindsight. Their last viceroy was commanding British forces in Kashmir, while the British officers in Pakistan refused to follow orders.

How can any self-respecting nation accept such treachery. Whenever we are in a weak position, this country tries to victimize it. From 1965, where they crossed the international border and attacked at what they thought was a defenseless Lahore after Pakistan's activities at a ceasefire line(the Israelis broke their ceasefire and redefined the areas under their control three times, under this same UN that berates us). In '71 they again crossed an international border and split off our province - and the mukthi bahini were trained on Indian soil. In the 80's when the Soviets were amassing armour across our western border the Indians followed suit on our east, trying to take advantage of our weak situation again. Even now, weaponry from Indian ordinance factories is frequently recovered in the tribal areas.

How am I supposed to feel when SU-30s with full armament cross my country's international border after a hostile country conducted a ridiculous sham attack in some hotel in Bombay where 7 men take over a 300-room building for almost a week(with the Indian police/military unable to make a move... comeon, THREE-HUNDRED rooms, those 7 men couldn't even logistically cover an area half that big) and the concrete evidence they come up with to blame Pak for that is that the terrorists carried *sacks* full of Pakistani products(sufi soap, rooh-Afza).

Every single time our adversary has gotten an opportunity to stab us in the back, they have done it. Exactly according to the chankiya philosophy that they follow. How is any Pakistani supposed to feel when they look at this colorful history of deceit. India is perhaps the only country in the world that has disputes with each and every country surrounding it.

This post ranges from self-pitying hypocrisy, in stating that the events of 1965 started with the Indian attack across the international border, when in fact it was the third action in sequence. How conveniently the poster forgets Pakistani actions in the pompously named Operation Gibraltar, in infiltrating SSG troops to foment a popular revolt in Kashmir, which never took place, Nd which saw the slaughter of all the hapless individuals injected across the line of control. And it is mysterious that General Akhtar Hussain Mallik's attack with armor across the Jammu river suddenly ceases to exist, leaving only the Indian riposte as the starting move.

There is no point even going into the other aspects of the post, except to underline the contemptible manner in which it is sought to cover up the naked terror attack on Mumbai, and the cynical effort to pretend that it was a false fog operation. This is beyond contempt, actually.

It is not pleasant to see the recent increase in Internet Muslims, the sorts who swallow whole the fantasies that are churned out by TV generals.

We did what we needed to, we did not want to exterminate the wave after wave of indian soldiers that charged our positions, but they kept coming and dying, our GPMG's barrels glowed red, and had to be changed - but the indians still came to die, gallant in death, the wounded indians suffered terribly, their cries still sound like ghosts in the dark.

Poetry, sheer poetry, and also delusional self-deception.

Pak may never Try Another kargil But if they start India will be gang raped by Pakistani Soldiers and it will get worse and they(india) will go to UN and start crying like 1948 65 1999 =))) so plz now close this thread =))

Probably a good idea to close the thread, before it is pointed out who ran where in the three years in consideration.

 

[modern_newton]

Indian soldiers used to vacate the posts in Winters and come back in summers. Pakistan sent its army there when the posts were empty.
When Indians realized this and raised the issue, Pakistanis said its not us. Its the Mujahideens. This gave India the excuse to use the air force and bomb the hell out of the invaders. When Clinton called the two PMs Vajpayee refused. Only Nawaz went and was ordered to vacate the posts. He knew defeat was imminent and followed Clinton's orders.
Now if you find victory in the events, that 's very good because hope my dear friend is a very good thing.

Well its all depend how you define win or defeat. India win is only to recapture 80 percent of positions or posts which were taken from them by Pakistani soldiers and mujahideen. Victory of Pakistani army was to capture these posts/points/hills whatever you call them for many days and it don't matter whether your soldiers left these posts empty because they were feeling cold or these points were taken from them after fighting. Most of Indians casualties and losses were in initial stages which suggest it was not as you put there that Pakistan went there and found no one there and captured these posts. Why Indian consider it win when they have not gain anything which was the part of Pakistan before Kargil conflict but Pakistani Army had captured Indians posts for many days . Its not easy to talk about statistic of loss because no one know about ground reality and each Army exaggerates about loss of opposite side while told their own loss as minimum. If we talk about official statistic of losses and casualties then Pakistan also have upper hands here

Indian Official Figures:
strength 30,000
527 killed
1,363 wounded
1 fighter jet shot down
1 fighter jet crashed
1 helicopter shot down

Pakistani Estimates:
Strength 5,000
453 was killed
665+ wounded

 

[Joe Shearer]

Well its all depend how you define win or defeat. India win is only to recapture 80 percent of positions or posts which were taken from them by Pakistani soldiers and mujahideen. Victory of Pakistani army was to capture these posts/points/hills whatever you call them for many days and it don't matter whether your soldiers left these posts empty because they were feeling cold or these points were taken from them after fighting. Most of Indians casualties and losses were in initial stages which suggest it was not as you put there that Pakistan went there and found no one there and captured these posts. Why Indian consider it win when they have not got anything that was the part of Pakistan before Kargil conflict but Pakistani Army had captured Indians posts for many days . Its not easy to talk about statistic of loss because no one know about ground reality and each Armye exaggerates about loss of opposite side while tell their own loss as minimum. If we talk about official statistic of losses and casualties then Pakistan also have upper hands here

Indian Official Figures:
strength 30,000
527 killed
1,363 wounded
1 fighter jet shot down
1 fighter jet crashed
1 helicopter shot down

Pakistani Estimates:
Strength 5,000
453 was killed
665+ wounded

Another nincompoop, another piece of self-aggrandizement.

The reason for casualties was not an attack by Pakistani elements on manned positions; they just walked in. The reSon was that Indian troops had to attack frontally against dug-in Pakistanis. Not even Pakistani military sources pretend, as this stupid poster does, that a preliminary attack was conducted.

Further Indian troops, on the ground and in the air, were under strict instructions not to cross the line of control in the course of their clearing operations. It was never an Indian objective to capture Pakistani territory, only to recover the existing positions.

 

[modern_newton]

There is no point even going into the other aspects of the post, except to underline the contemptible manner in which it is sought to cover up the naked terror attack on Mumbai, and the cynical effort to pretend that it was a false fog operation. This is beyond contempt, actually.

You probably don't have any answer of others points raised in my posts which were the main reasons of all these wars and which exposed the hypocrisy of India. You are suggesting 7 men can logistically cover an area of as big as 300 rooms ?

 

[karan.1970]

Well its all depend how you define win or defeat. India win is only to recapture 80 percent of positions or posts which were taken from them by Pakistani soldiers and mujahideen. Victory of Pakistani army was to capture these posts/points/hills whatever you call them for many days and it don't matter whether your soldiers left these posts empty because they were feeling cold or these points were taken from them after fighting. Most of Indians casualties and losses were in initial stages which suggest it was not as you put there that Pakistan went there and found no one there and captured these posts. Why Indian consider it win when they have not got anything that was the part of Pakistan before Kargil conflict but Pakistani Army had captured Indians posts for many days . Its not easy to talk about statistic of loss because no one know about ground reality and each Armye exaggerates about loss of opposite side while tell their own loss as minimum. If we talk about official statistic of losses and casualties then Pakistan also have upper hands here

Indian Official Figures:
strength 30,000
527 killed
1,363 wounded
1 fighter jet shot down
1 fighter jet crashed
1 helicopter shot down

Pakistani Estimates:
Strength 5,000
453 was killed
665+ wounded

Your Prime minister admitted that PA lost 4000+ men..
The Hindu : Over 4,000 soldiers killed in Kargil: Sharif

You guys can blab all you want on internet forums or talk about 5353, but what Pakistan really achieved was international ridicule and a permamnet delegitimizing of its stand on Kashmir. It was probably the 1st time when I saw a prime minister of a country of 180 million being summoned by the president of another country and being ordered to remove its military from its entrenched positions. And to top it all, the Pakistani PM agreed to do that.. Talk about humiliation??

Read again

Leaving most of the crap posted here on this thread..

The war is simple to sum up..
In the first few weeks of the war .. due to surprise.. Pakistan held high ground overlooking IA supply lines.
And was able to wreak havoc on a jugular of the IA's Kashmir ops.
However.. like all misadventures before it.. the PA under Musharraf only thought of the first few weeks.. and not what would happen when the giant woke up..
the result was that the infiltrators and regular troops took a pounding by the IAF..
They were still kept supplied so they could have held out(only JUST..but casualty figures before the withdrawal were below what was expected..testament of PA medevac pilots).. but the Indian leadership clearly told ours that the war would not stay in Kargil for long..that the LOC would be breached and an all out exchange was possible. This shook up the PA command as they(as usual) had not planned for things not going according to plan.. and Nawaz Sharif was told by a nervous Musharraf to go and ask the US to intervene.
When the US simply said that the PA must
withdraw back to its previous positions Musharaaf complied.. but since there was no cease fire... so when the IA took those peaks back.. they had the higher ground..
and literally mowed down our retreating troops.(of the approx 4500 lost by PA.. 2/3rds were during the retreat).
Men and equipment had to be left behind..
And the Zee Tv propaganda machine did the rest

 

[Joe Shearer]

Your Prime minister admitted that PA lost 4000+ men..
The Hindu : Over 4,000 soldiers killed in Kargil: Sharif

You guys can blab all you want on internet forums or talk about 5353, but what Pakistan really achieved was international ridicule and a permamnet delegitimizing of its stand on Kashmir. It was probably the 1st time when I saw a prime minister of a country of 180 million being summoned by the president of another country and being ordered to remove its military from its entrenched positions. And to top it all, the Pakistani PM agreed to do that.. Talk about humiliation??

Read again

Oh, but don't you know?

Oscar is a RAW agent.

 

[Rafi]

Karan we had the Official list of Pakistani KIA on the ISPR website, my son - it was 453 - and personally as the indian dead piled up, was heartbroken to think that their young wives and families would be receiving a dead soldier. We did not even have to aim, just point in the general direction and watch the indians fall.

 

[modern_newton]

Your Prime minister admitted that PA lost 4000+ men..
The Hindu : Over 4,000 soldiers killed in Kargil: Sharif

You guys can blab all you want on internet forums or talk about 5353, but what Pakistan really achieved was international ridicule and a permamnet delegitimizing of its stand on Kashmir. It was probably the 1st time when I saw a prime minister of a country of 180 million being summoned by the president of another country and being ordered to remove its military from its entrenched positions. And to top it all, the Pakistani PM agreed to do that.. Talk about humiliation??

Read again

Well Oscar is not the representative of Pakistan Army . here is the source of official statistic

Eleven years after the Kargil War, the Pakistan Army which has been denying its role in the conflict has quietly put the names of 453 soldiers and officers killed in the battle on its website.

Pakistan Army admits to Kargil martyrs | NDTV.com


It was bad move of Nawaz to ask army to pull out troops and he paid the price for it but again indian cried too much in front of whole world about Pakistan crossing LOC but still Pakistan has not got any sanctioned or world boycott because of this act so basically you just got the fake applause of others for not daring of crossing the Pakistani border after your jets and helicopter got shot down By PAF

Oh, but don't you know?

Oscar is a RAW agent.

Its you,your media, your politicians who have this ISIphobia and obsession with them. We don't care about Raw

 

[Joe Shearer]

Well Oscar is not the representative of Pakistan Army . here is the source of official statistic

Eleven years after the Kargil War, the Pakistan Army which has been denying its role in the conflict has quietly put the names of 453 soldiers and officers killed in the battle on its website.

Pakistan Army admits to Kargil martyrs | NDTV.com


It was bad move of Nawaz to ask army to pull out troops and he paid the price for it but again indian cried too much in front of whole world about Pakistan crossing LOC but still Pakistan has not got any sanctioned or world boycott because of this act so basically you just got the fake applause of others for not daring of crossing the Pakistani border after your jets and helicopter got shot down By PAF



Its you,your media, your politicians who have this ISIphobia and obsession with them. We don't care about Raw

Just idle curiousity: I wonder how far this delusion will go. Now we have got down to the level where moderators, and Numerous other Pakistani commentators themselves, are not to be believed. Where will it stop?

Karan we had the Official list of Pakistani KIA on the ISPR website, my son - it was 453 - and personally as the indian dead piled up, was heartbroken to think that their young wives and families would be receiving a dead soldier. We did not even have to aim, just point in the general direction and watch the indians fall.

And you expect an organization that lied desperately, claiming that the incursion was by Mujahideen, then slowly, reluctantly after months claiming their bodies and acknowledging their military status, handing out medals even more reluctantly based on Indian citations, to be taken seriously?