Pak-India outstanding issues affecting war on terror: PM

[Iggy]

we dont need US. we fought with india in 1965, 71 and 99 in an arms ambargo. no one came to our help and we did on our own grounds. fools like you keep on dreaming that india has the dictatorship to rule the sub-continent and think that Pakistan is just another Nepal or Bhutan but thats just a fools paradise. the fact is that the balance of power just doesnt shift on the basis of number of weapons. the fact is that about 70% of the indian missiles, troops, fighter planes, submarines and frigates our targeted towards pakistan. if anyone in india considers pakistan so much insignificant then get your troops direction towards china if they have the balls.

Are you sure about the bolded part??rest no comments

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

ISI is still sympathetic to Islamists, they still think they can use so called good Taliban & AQ to Pakistan's advantage

Yes it will be sympathetic as long as the other forces in Afghanistan(ISAF controlled) continue to pose any sort of threat to Pakistan especially the threat posed in the form of Bloch Militancy and TTP which directly challenge the state Institutions . In addition to this the outstanding disputes also pose a long term threat to Pakistan .
As long as that threat and Limitations which the Pakistan faces are not properly dealt why the hell PA goes after those groups with whome it can negotiate and ultimately work things out to contour the challenges it faces both at Eastern & Western border.

ISI is playing double game with US, supporting war on terror to some extent to get financial & military help at the same time giving safe haven to Quetta shura & safe houses to AQ leadership. They see this war as a cash cow or the chicken that lays the golden eggs, they don't want to finish it.

For the love of GOD there are hell of different ways to get money and milletery tech . Do you think that its only US which we look at for money and US gives it to us because it likes Pakistan and both are friends .BS! The US is paying Pakistan for the services it provides to facillitate its ops in Afghanistan . Without Pakistan's Help you are nothing in Afghanistan couse the other two routes are either controlled by the Iranians or Russians . Now the US would certinly not rely too much on those states to support its war in Afghanistan or they would simply use C5 galxies or C17 globemasters to fuel their war in afghanuistan now that costs alot of money and even then the success is not guranteed . And let us not forget Even for a facesaving exit from Afghanistan the US has to rely heavily on Pakistan or its planning to aquire the help of Iranians or Russians or Chinese, that would be a huge gamble and you dont wana know their terms .

Feel Free to lay sanctions upon Pakistan because its double dealing with the USA that inturn will support the Pakistani couse more and US will not only loose the war but also you will have to quire the help of your envisioned enemies .

US cant afford to have a Nuclear Armed Muslim country being hostile to it .

 

[deckingraj]

I have few questions..

Actually the statement is not ment to get the Americans pressure India . Its more directed towards the acknowledgement of America for the Problems which the Pakistan faces with these long standing disputes due to which the PA simply cant do enough which is actually demanded by Washington .

I believe this is smart diplomacy by Pakistan and this statement is actually meant to put pressure on India to come back on Talking table...Before we go into details i would like to share my opinion - Indian establishment is fine with the status quo in Kashmir and thinks that it is in our favor.....Thus reluctant to talk unless and until terror free environment is established...However for the same reasons Pakistan establishment is keen to hold on to jehadi element card till the status quo is dented in some way....

Our borders are comparative peaceful and unless there is no provocation they will remain so...Secondly Kashmir is complex enough problem to be solved quickly...even for the sake of argument we do still it would take lot of time for relaxing our stand(troops and resources allocation) viz-a-viz each other...To me this statement is nothing more than pressuring india to come on the talking table....and have little ground on inability of PA to crack militants with a strong punch if she choose so...

If the Americans are unable to realize the gravity of these disputes which binds Pakistan and India in a vicious circle of continous animosity and hatered then all their efforts to get the PA going after the Hardcore millitants is bound to fail .

Again i disagree...As per them(which is truth) India is not a threat to Pakistan...Unless and until provoked we have no business in Pakistan...The point is how much India can take in?? Mumbai was one incident that brought us to brink of war....Anything like that in near future will put GOI in a tight situation....

Till now the US gov has not yet formerly acknowledged the effect these long standing disputes and the growing insurgency in Balochistan directed from across Afghanistan(ISAF Controlled) have on the whole mindset of Pakistani military. Unless these things dont get inorder the PA will continue to percieve the US efforts as temporary showdown with an ultimate fear of getting back stabbed again .

You may be right here...However PA reluctance to crackdown on some of the jihadi groups(not threatning Pak's interest) is also one of the reason for growing suspicion between so called allies....

 

[deckingraj]

Yes it will be sympathetic as long as the other forces in Afghanistan(ISAF controlled) continue to pose any sort of threat to Pakistan especially the threat posed in the form of Bloch Militancy and TTP which directly challenge the state Institutions . In addition to this the outstanding disputes also pose a long term threat to Pakistan .
As long as that threat and Limitations which the Pakistan faces are not properly dealt why the hell PA goes after those groups with whome it can negotiate and ultimately work things out to contour the challenges it faces both at Eastern & Western border.

That is where the flaw lies... I can understand your reluctance to keep the jihadi card close to your chest however in today's world these tactics don't work...I know you won't agree but TTP is one of the reasons why state should not use terror(even covertly) to achieve any goal...As far as external threats are concerned than you have fears for no reason....As said in the previous posts your threats from India is valid only if there is any provocation from your part...so ultimately the key lies in your hands...

For the love of GOD there are hell of different ways to get money and milletery tech . Do you think that its only US which we look at for money and US gives it to us because it likes Pakistan and both are friends .BS!

Please suggest who are your other sources?? I hope you know that Pakistan went to IMF after China and Soudu Arabia refused to come for much needed help...Anways you very well know how much leverage US has on IMF etc...

The US is paying Pakistan for the services it provides to facillitate its ops in Afghanistan . Without Pakistan's Help you are nothing in Afghanistan couse the other two routes are either controlled by the Iranians or Russians .

I am not sure if you are entirely correct here...Though you are right that things will be difficult if Pakistan chooses to shut down the supply lines...However the bigger question is do you have the bone to do that??? This is a question that Pakistan as a nation has to discuss and answer...No offense but their is a saying "Beggars are not Choosers"....As long as Pakistan need money from foreign resources and an adversary as big as India complemented by her booming economy and diplomatic gains(viz-a-viz relations with Israel and now US)she cannot have an independen foreign policy.....

Now the US would certinly not rely too much on those states to support its war in Afghanistan or they would simply use C5 galxies or C17 globemasters to fuel their war in afghanuistan now that costs alot of money and even then the success is not guranteed . And let us not forget Even for a facesaving exit from Afghanistan the US has to rely heavily on Pakistan or its planning to aquire the help of Iranians or Russians or Chinese, that would be a huge gamble and you dont wana know their terms .

I did not get it right...First of all in my personal opinion there is not going to be a face saving exit....Anyways what do you mean on relying heavily on Pakistan for face saving exit???

Feel Free to lay sanctions upon Pakistan because its double dealing with the USA that inturn will support the Pakistani couse more and US will not only loose the war but also you will have to quire the help of your envisioned enemies .

I think its more of an emotional outburst than logic...Lets forget about the economic chaos that will impact your population but what about your defense against your percieved threat India??? With already booming economy and diplomatic realtions at its best compared with already shattered economy further shattered by sanctions...how on this earth you think you would be able to compete against India??? You know that your doors for any US arms(for that matter any arms having US imprints) will come to a halt...You very well know what these santions did to your Air-force don't you???

US cant afford to have a Nuclear Armed Muslim country being hostile to it .

This nuclear card is not going to work against US...it may work against country like India who do not have much leverage on pakistan but when it comes to US if one phone call can make you do a U-turn on AF policy while your military was in Power than just think how much damage they can do??? Last think you want is to being declared as a terrorist country and choose a future as that of SUdan(or may be worse)

 

[Renegade]

we dont need US. we fought with india in 1965, 71 and 99 in an arms ambargo. no one came to our help and we did on our own grounds. fools like you keep on dreaming that india has the dictatorship to rule the sub-continent and think that Pakistan is just another Nepal or Bhutan but thats just a fools paradise. the fact is that the balance of power just doesnt shift on the basis of number of weapons. the fact is that about 70% of the indian missiles, troops, fighter planes, submarines and frigates our targeted towards pakistan. if anyone in india considers pakistan so much insignificant then get your troops direction towards china if they have the balls.

The rhetoric apart your facts need correction. Clearly the school that you go to is not doing a good job.

 

[Renegade]

Actually the statement is not ment to get the Americans pressure India . Its more directed towards the acknowledgement of America for the Problems which the Pakistan faces with these long standing disputes due to which the PA simply cant do enough which is actually demanded by Washington .
If the Americans are unable to realize the gravity of these disputes which binds Pakistan and India in a vicious circle of continous animosity and hatered then all their efforts to get the PA going after the Hardcore millitants is bound to fail .

Till now the US gov has not yet formerly acknowledged the effect these long standing disputes and the growing insurgency in Balochistan directed from across Afghanistan(ISAF Controlled) have on the whole mindset of Pakistani military. Unless these things dont get inorder the PA will continue to percieve the US efforts as temporary showdown with an ultimate fear of getting back stabbed again .
And the statement you mentioned in the last is formarilly the prime threat which Pakistani Establishment Fears off.

The PA cant do enough or dose not want to do enough??

In my opinion the PA does not want to do enough. Terrorists like the LeT, Hakimiyat and the Taliban are their boys after all.

 

[illuminatus]

^^ Just like the NA which are your pet dogs? Also, the amount of sacrifices made by the PA is enough testimony of how serious they are about this war. Just because some people are blind or deliberately unwilling to accept this doesn't change the reality. Let's differentiate between LeT which is mainly a freedom movement struggling for independence and the Taliban which have other motives, shall we?

 

[EjazR]

^^Please LeT is a terrorist group just like TTP and so are the half dozen other groups like Hizbul Mujahideen and other groups under the United Jihad Council based in Muzaffarabad.

They have indulged in killing civilians, politicians, intellectuals, raping women, disfiguring women by throwing acid on them, blowing shrines and cinemas and public places and you call them freedom fighters? The were responsible for completely eliminating the pro-independence cadre of JKLF that was fighting for a secular independent J&K. Please do learn about the atrocities these groups have committed against the Kashmiri people before you say that.

 

[zagahaga]

Now a nuclear war thats a dream for indians. India will never use Nukes
if so it can only be done by Pakistan

And Kashmir my friend is a core issue only for Pakistan we have a lot of other things, But u guys want only Kashmir

wow for real ...? but if i remember india had a back up plan if pakistan was winning the war india would press the trigger and lay waste to pakistan and really dident care what would happen to the millions of people in india in pakistan response ... india is not soo innocent.

 

[illuminatus]

^^Please LeT is a terrorist group just like TTP and so are the half dozen other groups like Hizbul Mujahideen and other groups under the United Jihad Council based in Muzaffarabad.

They have indulged in killing civilians, politicians, intellectuals, raping women, disfiguring women by throwing acid on them, blowing shrines and cinemas and public places and you call them freedom fighters? The were responsible for completely eliminating the pro-independence cadre of JKLF that was fighting for a secular independent J&K. Please do learn about the atrocities these groups have committed against the Kashmiri people before you say that.

They are only brandished as terrorists because they demand their legitimate right for independence. Something that India is vigorously opposed to. I'll be the last person on this planet to deny that LeT never committed a crime. Unfortunately, where there's struggle there are bound to fall casualties. I also condemn any criminal activity on the part of LeT. However, rape and killing of innocent civilians is something that is vigorously practised by the Indian Army. Let's not apply double standards. So before you make any claim about the LeT being involved in criminal activity think twice about your own army.

 

[deckingraj]

They are only brandished as terrorists because they demand their legitimate right for independence. Something that India is vigorously opposed to. I'll be the last person on this planet to deny that LeT never committed a crime. Unfortunately, where there's struggle there are bound to fall casualties. I also condemn any criminal activity on the part of LeT. However, rape and killing of innocent civilians is something that is vigorously practised by the Indian Army. Let's not apply double standards. So before you make any claim about the LeT being involved in criminal activity think twice about your own army.

Don't you think in the bold part you yourself has used double standards??? On one side you kind of explain the terrorist activities of LET by saying where there's is struggle there are bound to fall casualities...on the other hand you use altogether different parameters for Indian Army....

However, rape and killing of innocent civilians is something that is vigorously practised by the Indian Army

Do you think IA is a bunch of thugs or what??? Like yours ours is also a professional army....we have fought 3 and half wars and veterans on your side can vouch for the professionalism of IA....

@back to Topic

We all appreciate the efforts done by PA to crack down terrorists like TTP...However question is what are your actions when it comes to groups like LET...JEM who are actively involved in terrorism against india(so called non-state actors) ???

On one hand you call them terrorists(International community including Pak) and ban them on the other hand you are somewhat justifying their role by pointing fingers at IA....

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

I believe this is smart diplomacy by Pakistan and this statement is actually meant to put pressure on India to come back on Talking table...Before we go into details i would like to share my opinion - Indian establishment is fine with the status quo in Kashmir and thinks that it is in our favor.....Thus reluctant to talk unless and until terror free environment is established...However for the same reasons Pakistan establishment is keen to hold on to jehadi element card till the status quo is dented in some way....

First of all consider what actually is Demanded by US. They are sayin that we should allocate majority of our troops to go after these millitants Haqqani and HIG network, this includes the troops allocated to contour the Indian threat . Let me be very clear India is still the enemy # 1 for the Milletery Establishment and no matter how much the Americans try they wont get the PA convinced to move troops from the eastren border .Its because of the obvious historic hostillity btw the two counteries .
If the Indian Establishment is willing to solve the Disputes then why its not negotiating it terms . Actually its not ...

Our borders are comparative peaceful and unless there is no provocation they will remain so...
Again i disagree...As per them(which is truth) India is not a threat to Pakistan...

They may be BUT the beefed up troops , forward artillery positions and Fighter aircrafts forward airbases + multiple airspace violations cannot neotralize the threat posed by a traditional enemy. It increases the threat tenfold + all the standing distputes add-up .

I know you won't agree but TTP is one of the reasons why state should not use terror(even covertly) to achieve any goal...

With all due respect the TTP has been cought red handed using Indian hardware and has also been termed as an Entity supported by India by the Interior Ministry of GOP. This is also one of the main reasons why PA is reluctant to go after these networks and is wiling to keep the Jihadi card active.

Though you are right that things will be difficult if Pakistan chooses to shut down the supply lines...However the bigger question is do you have the bone to do that??? This is a question that Pakistan as a nation has to discuss and answer...No offense but their is a saying "Beggars are not Choosers"....As long as Pakistan need money from foreign resources and an adversary as big as India complemented by her booming economy and diplomatic gains(viz-a-viz relations with Israel and now US)she cannot have an independen foreign policy.....

Pakistan has suffered the max in this war and yet its part is not acknowledged and more the aid give is clipped with conditions . We get money coz we offer US a sevice which is to facillitate its ops in afghanistan . The Aid which was demanded was for the rehab of areas affected by this so called WOT . Even then only a part of it is given so far ..
If these scenarios continue then the already frustrated people might choose to live without the US aid .

I did not get it right...First of all in my personal opinion there is not going to be a face saving exit....Anyways what do you mean on relying heavily on Pakistan for face saving exit???

Ok do you really think that US can win in Afghanistan on its own without having Pakistan onboard ..its too far from reality .

Lets forget about the economic chaos that will impact your population but what about your defense against your percieved threat India???

PLS...the PA has been bred to contour the Indian threat . Seriously many believe the fact that " Havent the Pakistan aquired the nuclear capability the state of India would have anhiliated it by now jst like Isralis are doing with Palestinians ..So in case of embargos enforced on Pakistan the GOI if tried any misadventure it will surely be the END..Wo kehtay he na zakhmi sher zada khatarnak hota he ..no offence

This nuclear card is not going to work against US...

Last think you want is to being declared as a terrorist country and choose a future as that of SUdan(or may be worse)

Yes but it would cerntinly work against its interest . + Can US afford to let a country with a crippling economy armed with nuke+ have the capability to develop it,,, rely at the Diposal of Underground BlackMarket Mafia and those orgs which are involved in Nuclear Proliferation for the sake of money ...?

 

[deckingraj]

I must say overall a very balanced post...I hope we can continue with the same sentiments...

First of all consider what actually is Demanded by US. They are sayin that we should allocate majority of our troops to go after these millitants Haqqani and HIG network, this includes the troops allocated to contour the Indian threat . Let me be very clear India is still the enemy # 1 for the Milletery Establishment and no matter how much the Americans try they wont get the PA convinced to move troops from the eastren border .Its because of the obvious historic hostillity btw the two counteries .

Very fair statement...

If the Indian Establishment is willing to solve the Disputes then why its not negotiating it terms . Actually its not ...

Here you are bit wrong...India establishment is not shying away from talks...however as long as terror is emanating from Pak(state or non-state actors) how do you think GOI can move forward??? Mumbai attack was one example where it is prooven without doubt that groups like LET..JEM are very potent and thus their capabilities needs to be checked... Don't you think this is a fair demand???

They may be BUT the beefed up troops , forward artillery positions and Fighter aircrafts forward airbases + multiple airspace violations cannot neotralize the threat posed by a traditional enemy. It increases the threat tenfold + all the standing distputes add-up .

Again a fair statement...Though i don't remember India attacking Pakistan in the history of Indo-Pak conflicts yet may be Pakistan perspective is different.....

With all due respect the TTP has been cought red handed using Indian hardware and has also been termed as an Entity supported by India by the Interior Ministry of GOP. This is also one of the main reasons why PA is reluctant to go after these networks and is wiling to keep the Jihadi card active

.

Thats the crux of the problem...The same we say about ISI and PA....Now tell me one thing...When did TTP problem started in Pakistan?? If i am not wrong then may be around 2002...Now lets look at insurgency in kashmir..it's on from late 80's....Multiple times Pakistan hardware has been seized....Does that vindicate GOI stance viz-a-viz composite dialogue??

I understand PA reluctance to go hard against Jihadi's but don't you think it is in fact hampering Pakistan?? terrorist have not served any purpose so far..they will not serve any purpose even in future...The only thing they have achieved is sufferings of Kashmiri's....unfortunately military planners see it other way...

Pakistan has suffered the max in this war and yet its part is not acknowledged and more the aid give is clipped with conditions . We get money coz we offer US a sevice which is to facillitate its ops in afghanistan . The Aid which was demanded was for the rehab of areas affected by this so called WOT . Even then only a part of it is given so far ..

I can understand the frustration...However don't you think Pakistan is partly responsible for the mess???

If these scenarios continue then the already frustrated people might choose to live without the US aid .

I wish Pak can...It's always good for a nation if she has an independent foreign policy and self-sufficiency...

Ok do you really think that US can win in Afghanistan on its own without having Pakistan onboard ..its too far from reality .

I never said that US can win without Pakistan in the picture...However the question is can you deny the help??

PLS...the PA has been bred to contour the Indian threat . Seriously many believe the fact that " Havent the Pakistan aquired the nuclear capability the state of India would have anhiliated it by now jst like Isralis are doing with Palestinians ..So in case of embargos enforced on Pakistan the GOI if tried any misadventure it will surely be the END..Wo kehtay he na zakhmi sher zada khatarnak hota he ..no offence

Bro think about it logically....No country would use nuclear weapons unless existence is in danger.......What would you prefer loosing P-O-K or annihilate India at the cost of whole of Pakistan by using nuclear weapons???..they are deterrants...Pakistan and India are nations..not some brain washed suicide bombers...My question was viz-a-viz conventional weapons...We both have nuclear weapons but does that mean we have stopped advancing in conventional field???

Yes but it would cerntinly work against its interest . + Can US afford to let a country with a crippling economy armed with nuke+ have the capability to develop it,,, rely at the Diposal of Underground BlackMarket Mafia and those orgs which are involved in Nuclear Proliferation for the sake of money

What made you think they will let that happen.....The bombed the crap out of Iraq when they had mere suspicion of WMD being used agaisnt them.....Soft/hard diplomacy is the first rule of the book....No offense...

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

Don't you think this is a fair demand???

This Demand is complemented by Pakistani Demand of seasing all Indian ops of supporting anti state actors from the land of Afghanistan .

Though i don't remember India attacking Pakistan in the history of Indo-Pak conflicts yet may be Pakistan perspective is different.....

I think it was Indian supported Mukti Bahani force which created problems in the East Pakistan tragedy .Beter refresh your HISTORY..

would you prefer loosing P-O-K or annihilate India

P-O-K is Pakistani territory and if any Part of Pakistani territory is under threat of occupation from hostile forces then Pakistan has the option of conducting Nuclear strikes .
I put the same thing to you , India would prefer to settle Kashmir through Dialogue or is willing to fight a destructive war over it and in the process goes back to ground zero ..?

they are deterrants...Pakistan and India are nations..not some brain washed suicide bombers...My question was viz-a-viz conventional weapons...We both have nuclear weapons but does that mean we have stopped advancing in conventional field???

Yes. But you know frankly the stronger nations have many options to settle a problem where as the poor , They have limited options which they dont hesitate to use in the time of great need.

The bombed the crap out of Iraq when they had mere suspicion of WMD being used agaisnt them

For GODs sake
They bombed Iraq because they knew it for sure tat it didnt had Nukes . It was the Iraqi Oil which they were after. Based upon your Logik why the US dosent BOMBS North Korea who actively issues statement to launch missiles against it and its allies in the korean peninsula.

You know what were Indian Army Cheif's remarks about the Iraq war were
"Never Fight US without Nuclear Bombs " ...


No Offence

 

[deckingraj]

You have made very good points...Let me try and reply to your satisfaction....

This Demand is complemented by Pakistani Demand of seasing all Indian ops of supporting anti state actors from the land of Afghanistan .

Ummm though i get your overall point but seems you are not right...Pakistan stand is to delink terror with Talks.....Secondly there are two things worth noting here....Please do let me which one you disagree and why...

- LET..JEM etc are groups in Pakistan who are causing terror in India...Ample proofs have been given and thus these organizations are banned not only by international community but by Pak herself..... If we go by official stance of GOP then mumbai attack was dont by non-state actors belonging to LET.....In other words groups from your land are operating against my country interests which has been acknowledged by GOP....Now we both know(even in your last post you say that) that PA is reluctant to act against these Jihadi element for XYZ reasons....So all in all do you think it make India stance on act agasint them and then talk fair???


- Not lets look at these XYZ reasons.....Though it was/is more from bleed india by thousand cuts theory yet don't want to discuss something that has been discussed to death.. So let's concentrate on TTP... This is controvertial....Firstly it is pakistani based group....secondly the official stand of GOI is that she has nothing to do with TTP....The official stand of International community is that Pak so far has not shown any credible proofs thus vindicate India's hand of any wrong doings... Official stand of GOP is that we have proofs but will show when time comes......


Now what's your opinion on GOI stand of acting on these groups first before talks vs Pakistan stand of delinking terror with talks???

I think it was Indian supported Mukti Bahani force which created problems in the East Pakistan tragedy .Beter refresh your HISTORY..

I can refresh my memory but dear don't you think it was your internal mess which created East Pakistan tragedy....India helped Mukti Bahini to achieve their target however India did not created those problems.... There is a separate thread which is dedicated to Bangladesh(East-pakistan) and Pakistan(west-Pakistan) and the happenings there....So blaming all on India might not be correct....

P-O-K is Pakistani territory and if any Part of Pakistani territory is under threat of occupation from hostile forces then Pakistan has the option of conducting Nuclear strikes .I put the same thing to you , India would prefer to settle Kashmir through Dialogue or is willing to fight a destructive war over it and in the process goes back to ground zero ..?

Very fair...You have the option but you missed my point....I was trying to give you an example that in a limited conflict one would not like to use nuclear weapons......... and that is why parity on conventional weapons is as important....

Yes. But you know frankly the stronger nations have many options to settle a problem where as the poor , They have limited options which they dont hesitate to use in the time of great need.

However poor nations cannot risk their survival unless it is at stake...

For GODs sake
They bombed Iraq because they knew it for sure tat it didnt had Nukes . It was the Iraqi Oil which they were after. Based upon your Logik why the US dosent BOMBS North Korea who actively issues statement to launch missiles against it and its allies in the korean peninsula.

Well you made a very good point...Now i would request you to read the post again....May be i am naive yet let me ask what US interests can you challenge with your nuclear weapons vs how much damage they can cause you??....You see cost vs value....While we are talking a case is already being built against IRAN....Pakistan nukes falling into Jihadi's hand is similar scenario....

You know what were Indian Army Cheif's remarks about the Iraq war were
"Never Fight US without Nuclear Bombs " ...

And he was right...All i am questioning is one need to have the capacity to cause that damage...

No Offence

Not at all...Its a healthy discussion....