Pak-India education compared by Pervez Hoodboy

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Hi, which posts ?

But yes, Laozi is a troll.

#16 is the one in question. It is completely unrelated to the thread and trolling.

@Joe Shearer is anti-Congress as far as I know. And he is anti-Hindutva too.

Keep watching brother.

 

[Joe Shearer]

You can give me all the positive ratings you want. All i get are negative ratings and immediate bans.
I am a craftsman in shaping my posts.

LOL.

And who are you, dear Sir?

 

[Morpheus]

Gave this open threat and insulting post a positive rating, this is an abuse of his title and privilege.

I have said it before. Regardless of religion, all indian are hostile towards all Pakistanis. I have seen this happens from variety of indian Muslims across the globe.

 

[Peshwa]

India's regional languages such as Tamil, Bengali, Gujarati, Marathi have a rich history that goes back to at least a 1000 years. The languages have evolved in a natural course, and were standardized not less than 500-600 years ago.

The same is true for Urdu: its literary form (which is intelligible with modern standardized Urdu) also stretches back much earlier than Hindi. Consider the following phrase by Mir Taqi Mir. This couplet is probably from the second half of the eighteenth century, before America was formed.

Dikhaai diye yun ki bekhud kiya
Hamein aap se bhi juda kar chale

Most modern Urdu speakers (as well as Hindi speakers) will be able to understand the above paragraph's meaning. In fact, a rendition of this poetry was used in a popular Bollywood song of the '80s from a movie called Bazaar, sung by Lata Mangeshkar. So, literary Urdu had to be nominally replaced by standard Urdu. I am not denying that Urdu borrows 75% of its vocabulary from indigenous Indian languages such as Pali, Prakrit, Sanskrit. But many of the higher vocabulary and concepts come from Persian and Chagatai Turkic words.

In comparison to Urdu, Hindi was formed more recently. Please read Tulsidas, Surdas, and a few other "Hindi" authors who actually wrote in dialects like Brij, Awadhi etc. No Hindi-speaker can understand the meaning of their works without a translation.

This goes with my earlier theory that standardized Hindi language was a recent creation, and the credit goes to British East India company officers. They aimed to design an artificial language to communicate with the Hindu masses (Urdu already existed for communication with the Muslims).

All literate Hindus of the 19th century from Punjab to Bengal, could write their thoughts in fluent Urdu. It was the only "national" language of Northern India.

Then this pretender to the throne came after India became independent in 1947. It was called Hindi, of course - even Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru had a personal dislike of Hindi as he too had been educated in Urdu. Mahatma Gandhi also spoke fluent Urdu.

One of the famous moderators here thread-banned me for expressing these views in another thread (I will not name him).

Now this perversion will continue under Modi-Raj.

Forget about your hate of BJP-RSS for a second.

Now explain to me, how Urdu (written in Nastaliq) is supposed to be taught instead of Hindi (written in Devnagri) which resembles many written regional languages such as Marathi. As a Marathi speaker myself, I can read Marathi (98% of it) when I know how to read Hindi. But If I had learned to write in Urdu, I wouldn't be able to read Marathi.
Are the children expected to learn a whole different script? And your own admission of Urdu and Hindi in the spoken language happen to be near interchangeable. So couldn't the reason be simply practicality and the dual use of the script as a motivator?
Now its another thing what BJPs motivation might be (to dissuade Urdu as a muslim lingua franca), but that's speculation as is my above explanation.

Lastly, since regional languages are being focused on in this reform, which region predominantly speaks Urdu?
Kashmir? Besides, isn't it a state decision on Urdu being part of the curriculum if a state so chooses it?

I'm yet to see evidence of this new education policy disowning Urdu as an Indian language, except for inferences drawn about this.

 

[Shantanu_Left]

Forget about your hate of BJP-RSS for a second.

Now explain to me, how Urdu (written in Nastaliq) is supposed to be taught instead of Hindi (written in Devnagri) which resembles many written regional languages such as Marathi. As a Marathi speaker myself, I can read Marathi (98% of it) when I know how to read Hindi. But If I had learned to write in Urdu, I wouldn't be able to read Marathi.
Are the children expected to learn a whole different script? And your own admission of Urdu and Hindi in the spoken language happen to be near interchangeable. So couldn't the reason be simply practicality and the dual use of the script as a motivator?
Now its another thing what BJPs motivation might be (to dissuade Urdu as a muslim lingua franca), but that's speculation as is my above explanation.

Lastly, since regional languages are being focused on in this reform, which region predominantly speaks Urdu?
Kashmir? Besides, isn't it a state decision on Urdu being part of the curriculum if a state so chooses it?

I'm yet to see evidence of this new education policy disowning Urdu as an Indian language, except for inferences drawn about this.

I don't care much about the script. In fact, I only prefer the English script nowadays. My childhood rearing in Nastaliq was different (I have explained the background of my ICSE education in another thread which that GreatMaratha dude might keep track of - I myself don't know how to recall older posts).

Of course, I read Devangari as well. The script s a non-issue for me.

I feel India should romanize all its languages (including Urdu, Hindi and even local languages like Marathi) - that is the future. There's no point in remaining stuck in the past.

 

[Shantanu_Left]

I have said it before. Regardless of religion, all indian are hostile towards all Pakistanis. I have seen this happens from variety of indian Muslims across the globe.

Someone like you needs to look in the mirror first. The hatred you experience is a reflection of your own animosity and hostile feelings towards Indians. Most Indians are very easy to get along with, but you will not make even the bare minimum effort to meet them half-way. If that is your position, then you should not be complaining about any hatred you receive in exchange. You're stuck like cement (and I'm talking about you as an individual). I know enough Pakistanis to comment that they aren't all so universally hostile towards Indians like you are.

Best Regards

 

[Shantanu_Left]

As a Marathi speaker myself, I can read Marathi (98% of it) when I know how to read Hindi. But If I had learned to write in Urdu, I wouldn't be able to read Marathi.
Are the children expected to learn a whole different script? .

Damn, I have zero say in what script the Maharashtrians want to choose for Marathi language. Stop misquoting me. But I do believe a progressive government (which India will never see in another two decades) should romanize all the languages

Are the children expected to learn a whole different script?

Yes, why not? The Tamils, Bengals and Gujaratis are already learning a different script which is not the same as Hindi. Why can't Marathi kids do the same? They needn't learn Hindi at all except for spoken communications.

In the hypothetical situation the Marathi kids learn Nastaliq (Anjuman-e-Islam students in Mumbai do it despite being Maharashtra Board), they can also code-switch to Marathi language in Devangari script if it's a part of the curriculum.

 

[Morpheus]

Someone like you needs to look in the mirror first. The hatred you experience is a reflection of your own animosity and hostile feelings towards Indians. Most Indians are very easy to get along with, but you will not make even the bare minimum effort to meet them half-way. If that is your position, then you should not be complaining about any hatred you receive in exchange. You're stuck like cement (and I'm talking about you as an individual). I know enough Pakistanis to comment that they aren't all so universally hostile towards Indians like you are.

Best Regards

I have met many indians. From Delhi, Hyderabad, Lucknow, Bhopal, etc They all have same thing in common, regardless of religion. They hate Pakistan. Some will outright say it ,while others like you, will just pretend to be friendly, while hating on Pakistani behind your back. This isn't limited to me, ask any Pakistani overseas and they will tell the same. So I'm speaking from experience and stories heard/witnessed first hand.

Your comment is proof of that. You wrote a hateful comment and it got a positive rating from another Indian. Both you guys claim to be friendly towards Pakistani.

@Pan-Islamic-Pakistan you saw it yourself. These guys love to play the victim card after posting such comments. Never trust a indian

 

[Cookie Monster]

Their brains are too hardwired with hatred to process the harfs, izafats, and naazuk nature of Urdu.

That is why I consider Hindi a fake, artificial language. It's not difficult to learn (I had studied in school) and you want to drop out after you cover the basics.

MOD's - Why did I receive a thread ban last time for speaking on this very subject? I think I had raised many good points.


Back on topic, Kashmiris will continue to learn Urdu with or without the patronage of the Indian state. But some Kashmiris have become so spineless that I think they will even allow this linguistic genocide for some material benefits.

I think Indian nation has been anti-Urdu right since the country's formation in 1947. Thankfully, there are a few revivalists and traditionalists but they find themselves in a shrinking space due to anti-intellectualism.

Anti Urdu thing predates partition. Partition was just one of the eventualities...the Hindu/Muslim friction has existed long before that...the Hindi/Urdu split was just one of the forms it took. Hindi/Urdu used to be basically identical...the only difference being that they were written using different scripts. Then there came a drive to purge Hindi of Perso-Arabic words and replace them with equivalent Sanskrit words...
...this is where Hindi/Urdu started to diverge in a significant manner. Gandhi tried to bring the two languages together again under the same umbrella...in an attempt to heal the divide but he was unsuccessful at doing so. There is quite an interesting history to this...it's a fun read.

 

[Shantanu_Left]

Anti Urdu thing predates partition. Partition was just one of the eventualities...the Hindu/Muslim friction has existed long before that...the Hindi/Urdu split was just one of the forms it took. Hindi/Urdu used to be basically identical...the only difference being that they were written using different scripts. Then there came a drive to purge Hindi of Perso-Arabic words and replace them with equivalent Sanskrit words...
...this is where Hindi/Urdu started to diverge in a significant manner. Gandhi tried to bring the two languages together again under the same umbrella...in an attempt to heal the divide but he was unsuccessful at doing so. There is quite an interesting history to this...it's a fun read.

I was raised in 80's and 90's India, and the anti-Urdu trend wasn't so pronounced back then. It's really gotten worse under the Modi era, since 2014. Although I was raised in a very cosmopolitan area of Mumbai, so maybe my experience has been different from many others.

Hindi..Urdu, it was just called Hindustani language in today's geographical region of India. Not sure what it was called in today's geographical region of Pakistan...possibly it was called "Zaban-e-Ordu" there. In Hyderabad, it was called "Dakkani" or "Rekhta". In Delhi also "Rekhta".

Same language, different names. But the split is now permanent. I have never bothered to learn what is called "shudd Hindi" despite my exposure during schooling years.

 

[Cookie Monster]

I was raised in 80's and 90's India, and the anti-Urdu trend wasn't so pronounced back then. It's really gotten worse under the Modi era, since 2014. Although I was raised in a very cosmopolitan area of Mumbai, so maybe my experience has been different from many others.

Hindi..Urdu, it was just called Hindustani language in today's geographical region of India. Not sure what it was called in today's geographical region of Pakistan...possibly it was called "Zaban-e-Ordu" there. In Hyderabad, it was called "Dakkani" or "Rekhta". In Delhi also "Rekhta".

Same language, different names. But the split is now permanent. I have never bothered to learn what is called "shudd Hindi" despite my exposure during schooling years.

It was known by many names...and had different varieties...but essentially the core was the same. It came about as a mix of the local languages...along with Persian, Arabic, and Turkish loanwords(in general). "Rekhta" means "mixed"...
..."Ordu"...a Turkish word which I think means "army" is where the name for the language "Urdu" comes from. All these were more or less reference to the fact that this language arose from a mixing of several languages. The troops that made up the army came from various different locations...and hence brought their distinct languages. Hindustani was also used as a name for this language...bcuz it was the language of Hindustan(pre-partition).

Still whatever form it had taken...that form had become the identity of the language. The drive to replace Perso-Arabic origin words...that was just in bad taste...done out of that same animosity against the "Muslim invaders"...that still exists. The difference in script I get...it's all good to take pride in ur roots. So writing Hindi in devangari is completely understandable...but the purge of Perso-Arabic vocabulary...still doesn't make sense. It did nothing but destroy a perfectly good language...and turn it into some Frankenstein's monster...that is neither Hindustani...nor Sanskrit.

 

[Shantanu_Left]

So writing Hindi in devangari is completely understandable...

I have no problem with that either. My personal dislike doesn't matter, which @Peshwa needs to take note of. I hated Devangari in my school studies. That doesn't mean I dictate the choice for other Indians.

However, I believe the Roman Script should be standard for Hindi/Urdu in India. That's just my personal view, and almost no takers for that.

But the purge of Perso-Arabic vocabulary...still doesn't make sense. It did nothing but destroy a perfectly good language...and turn it into some Frankenstein's monster...that is neither Hindustani...nor Sanskrit.

Correct. This is the precise summary of my entire debate in this thread.

 

[Cookie Monster]

I have no problem with that either. My personal dislike doesn't matter, which @Peshwa needs to take note of. I hated Devangari in my school studies. That doesn't mean I dictate the choice for other Indians.

However, I believe the Roman Script should be standard for Hindi/Urdu in India. That's just my personal view, and almost no takers for that.



Correct. This is the precise summary of my entire debate in this thread.

I can see where u r coming from about the Roman script...
...but I'm not too keen on it...and I'm saying that as a fluent Urdu and English speaker.

 

[Shantanu_Left]

I can see where u r coming from about the Roman script...
...but I'm not too keen on it...and I'm saying that as a fluent Urdu and English speaker.

My views were concerning India alone. Our kids there are getting dumber with each new generation: they will not be separated from their smartphones and consoles.

On top of that, expecting them to learn Nastaliq or Devangari is a bit too much. Many countries have successfully romanized their languages: Indonesia, Malaysia, Turkey, Philippines, Georgia...Chinese have pinyin, the Desis are using Roman letters right here on this forum.

Can't fight the future.

 

[Peshwa]

I don't care much about the script. In fact, I only prefer the English script nowadays. My childhood rearing in Nastaliq was different (I have explained the background of my ICSE education in another thread which that GreatMaratha dude might keep track of - I myself don't know how to recall older posts).

Of course, I read Devangari as well. The script s a non-issue for me.

I feel India should romanize all its languages (including Urdu, Hindi and even local languages like Marathi) - that is the future. There's no point in remaining stuck in the past.

I agree with you, the multiple scripts for each of those 30 odd languages makes learning them even harder. Because to me (purely from an education standpoint), writing is half the learning of any language)

Probably also a reason why many regional languages may even have been lost to irrelevance. Urdu should be promoted, as a Romance language if not with a focus on education, this I agree with you whole heartedly.

nevertheless, my point is, and this is specifically for you...BJP has done a lot of things worth hating and should be criticized as such where their actions are wrong.
But each action has to be evaluated as on its own merit and everything that comes out of BJP govt should not be treated as that from a poisoned chalice.
Here you’re just pandering to your audiences. You’re a smart chap, I expect you to at least find the logic and motivation behind certain moves and not blindly criticize each news item, just because it’s been recommended by the BJP.