Pak incapable of action against terror: Pranab

[Kasrkin]

Institutional support may indeed exist for legitimate groups fighting the Kashmiri freedom struggle against occupation in Kashmir, but that is not support for terrorism.

This accusation of 'institutional support' is also VERY weak. What institutional support would imply is that no matter who is in charge, be it the COAS or the ISI Chief or any other officer from the PA in a position of import, they will turn to organizationally or institutionally affiliated irregular groups because that’s what the standard protocol or procedures or organizational disposition would oblige them to do. This is not true because organizationally NO irregular groups are affiliated with the PA.

There has been support for groups that India wants to label ‘terrorists’ from within the ISI in the past, but this as well documented research has shown this depends on the demeanor, preference, tempo of people making the decisions i.e. the ISI chief. So if a new ISI chief, take General Pasha for instance, comes in and decides that unlike his predecessor he’s not going to fund these subversive groups, instead he’s going to look into other ways of investing resources and achieving his objectives. Then protocol wise NO ONE will raise an eyebrow. So these are individual decisions resulting from individual inclinations. There is NO institutional support unless you mean that funds provided by the institution’s operations department may have been invested for that particular amount of time in that particular organization with that particular assignment. But the Indians by saying ‘institutional support for terror’ as usual blow everything COMPLETELY out of proportion. The ISI has done nothing the Indians haven’t done before, or the Americans or Russians.

The Army institution itself is very large, and not even a fraction of its resources and potential would go into these intelligence oriented ‘extraordinary’ or ‘special’ assignments. It has always been India’s cherished dream to get the PA branded a terrorist organization, because it is stylish and politically convenient to fight a 'terrorist' enemy these days. And there is a lot of content out there in cyber-space designed to ensure this insinuation is encouraged. If you'd note that they're many Indians here who're inclined to believe any Muslim involved in any marshal Jihad for his people is a terrorist. Basically to India the WoT is just another excuse to settle old scores.

 

[dave007]

I have explained this in my previous posts - read through them, they are written in simple English.

Pakistan has not supported terror - it has like India in East Pakistan and the US in Latin America and Afghanistan, supported insurgents. In fact Pakistan only supported insurgents in disputed territory, India supported insurgents in sovereign Pakistani territory, so arguably India was the one supporting terrorism since it was destabilizing the sovereign undisputed territory of another nation (read through the Bangladesh threads in the history forum to continue this discussion - most of these questions have been answered there)

Pakistan has not supported terror, yet you have terrorists organisations operating in ***.Yet you have your President admitting to the "cancer in your country"..and also to the fact that those are not freedom fighters but "terrorists", yet JuD got banned. And despite overwhelming evidence against Pakistan, it simply says we don't have terrorists against our soil. If you dont have terrorists operating from your soils why do you have Americans gunning after you? Why have their been repeated strikes in India despite assurances given to end terror?
The same thing was said when parliament attacks happened, same careless attitude is prevailing the Pak estabilishment even today.

And please don't make senseless statements like you supporting insurgency and not terror. It is those insurgents that have carried out acts of terror. We don't care whatever **** you call them. We don't want you sending anything into India.

And India carrying out insurgency? What nonsense..
Who was it fenced the entire Indo Pak border? It wasn't the PA for sure.
And why did they do it?..Doesnt need einstein to figure out the fact that had India been the one carrying out insurgency, the last thing it would have done would have been fence the border.

I don't know what goodsense prevails in Pakistan when you seem to protecting all the evil of your country.

 

[Jihad]

Pakistan has not supported terror, yet you have terrorists organisations operating in ***.Yet you have your President admitting to the "cancer in your country"..and also to the fact that those are not freedom fighters but "terrorists", yet JuD got banned. And despite overwhelming evidence against Pakistan, it simply says we don't have terrorists against our soil. If you dont have terrorists operating from your soils why do you have Americans gunning after you? Why have their been repeated strikes in India despite assurances given to end terror?
The same thing was said when parliament attacks happened, same careless attitude is prevailing the Pak estabilishment even today.

And please don't make senseless statements like you supporting insurgency and not terror. It is those insurgents that have carried out acts of terror. We don't care whatever **** you call them. We don't want you sending anything into India.

And India carrying out insurgency? What nonsense..
Who was it fenced the entire Indo Pak border? It wasn't the PA for sure.
And why did they do it?..Doesnt need einstein to figure out the fact that had India been the one carrying out insurgency, the last thing it would have done would have been fence the border.

I don't know what goodsense prevails in Pakistan when you seem to protecting all the evil of your country.

It obviously has no use debating with you, since you continue to believe that this issue of terrorism is only Pakistans fault and problem.
If you could manage to see through your Indian nationalistic pride, you would realize that alot of Pakistanis have suffered because of your nations support to certain insurgents.
If you deny any Indian involvement inside Pakistan, then so be it, but do NOT accuse Pakistan on your turn.

We Pakistanis have acknowledged that there are certain elements inside our country that need to be dealt with, our President, Mr. Zardari himself has said so, we are fully committed on tackling the situation.
However, why do you not acknowledge your own countries failures when it comes to insurgencies / bomb blasts or terrorist acts inside Pakistan?
How can you be so convinced of your own nations innocence?
When talking about the issue of terrorism, it is vital that double standards are not applied.

 

[hasang20]

Parnab sahab 4foot 2inch ka hai aik thpar pare ga pathan ka mar giye ge

YouTube - pathan kills indian with a slap!!!

 

[Captain03]

Parnab sahab 4foot 2inch ka hai aik thpar pare ga pathan ka mar giye ge

YouTube - pathan kills indian with a slap!!!

lmao
excellent vid

 

[pama]

Legitimate freedom fighters, those groups fighting Indian occupation forces in Kashmir, and not attacking civilians as a matter of policy.

Terorrorists - those who carried out the attack in Mumbai, throw acid on women, and those carrying out suicide bombings in Pakistan.

in that case they are legitimate freedom fighters when fighting in Afghanistan and Pakistan has supported it.

they become terrorist when they came attacking in Pakistan.

Then these attacks are not in Kashmir they are in mumbai.
They are not on establishment but on citizens.

And they are LeT you still see them as freedom fighter for us they are terrorists they will become terrorist when they come attack like taliban.
It is just matter of time.

 

[pama]

It obviously has no use debating with you, since you continue to believe that this issue of terrorism is only Pakistans fault and problem.
If you could manage to see through your Indian nationalistic pride, you would realize that alot of Pakistanis have suffered because of your nations support to certain insurgents.
If you deny any Indian involvement inside Pakistan, then so be it, but do NOT accuse Pakistan on your turn.

We Pakistanis have acknowledged that there are certain elements inside our country that need to be dealt with, our President, Mr. Zardari himself has said so, we are fully committed on tackling the situation.
However, why do you not acknowledge your own countries failures when it comes to insurgencies / bomb blasts or terrorist acts inside Pakistan?
How can you be so convinced of your own nations innocence?
When talking about the issue of terrorism, it is vital that double standards are not applied.

Yes Zardari said Pakistan has cancer but can it be cured if it is hidden?

First Pakistan did not claim attacks are from India and they did not give Inida like india did in 26/11 did they?
India is not innocence given proof india will acknowlage

Terrorism become double standards when UN bans it and you see it as freedom fighters

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

in that case they are legitimate freedom fighters when fighting in Afghanistan and Pakistan has supported it.

they become terrorist when they came attacking in Pakistan.

Then these attacks are not in Kashmir they are in mumbai.
They are not on establishment but on citizens.

And they are LeT you still see them as freedom fighter for us they are terrorists they will become terrorist when they come attack like taliban.
It is just matter of time.

At no point have I said that the LeT is not a terrorist group becasue it carried out the Mumbai attacks - that is why it is banned in Pakistan and receives no support from the government or its institutions.

The LeT is not the only group fighting in Kashmir - there are others who limit themselves to attacking Indian SF's, they are not terrorists, and they are who I was referring to.

Learn to read the posts a bit more carefully and do not distort my arguments next time, both you and Dave.

On the Afghanistan issue - the Mujahideen were indeed Freedom fighters supported by the US and Pakistan to fight the Soviet invasion. The Taliban of today do not offer a very clear cut solution, but the fact that the TTP and others have attacked civilians makes them terrorist groups. Other Taliban groups limiting themselves to fighting NATO are insurgents IMO.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Pakistan has not supported terror, yet you have terrorists organisations operating in ***.Yet you have your President admitting to the "cancer in your country"..and also to the fact that those are not freedom fighters but "terrorists", yet JuD got banned. And despite overwhelming evidence against Pakistan, it simply says we don't have terrorists against our soil. If you dont have terrorists operating from your soils why do you have Americans gunning after you? Why have their been repeated strikes in India despite assurances given to end terror?
The same thing was said when parliament attacks happened, same careless attitude is prevailing the Pak estabilishment even today.

The organizations operating out of PK are freedom fighters, since they are fighting Indian occupation.

And please don't make senseless statements like you supporting insurgency and not terror. It is those insurgents that have carried out acts of terror. We don't care whatever **** you call them. We don't want you sending anything into India.

We are indeed supporting, morally and politically, a freedom struggle against an illegal and unjust occupation in blatant violation of the UNSC resolutions and agreements between India, Pakistan and the international community.

And India carrying out insurgency? What nonsense..
Who was it fenced the entire Indo Pak border? It wasn't the PA for sure.
And why did they do it?..Doesnt need einstein to figure out the fact that had India been the one carrying out insurgency, the last thing it would have done would have been fence the border.

The only 'nonsense' here is your abject lack of knowledge on Indian support for militants in East Pakistan that carried out massacres and killings of non-combatants, and destabilized East Pakistan - sovereign Pakistani territory - and this started in 1968. Add in the support for the BLA.

 

[vish]

The organizations operating out of PK are freedom fighters, since they are fighting Indian occupation.

That's how you see it.

 

[suresh_]

The organizations operating out of PK are freedom fighters, since they are fighting Indian occupation.


We are indeed supporting, morally and politically, a freedom struggle against an illegal and unjust occupation in blatant violation of the UNSC resolutions and agreements between India, Pakistan and the international community.

The only 'nonsense' here is your abject lack of knowledge on Indian support for militants in East Pakistan that carried out massacres and killings of non-combatants, and destabilized East Pakistan - sovereign Pakistani territory - and this started in 1968. Add in the support for the BLA.

you are not only supporting them 'morally and politically' but also militarily and logistically. India demands/requests you to stop doing that.
how can you be blind to the reality that 'mujahideen' of yesteryears is today's taliban? similarly those 'freedom fighters' in kashmir are the terrorists.
every terrorist has an excuse that they believe as a 'just cause'. pak should stop supporting violence in the name of 'freedom'.

and punjabis fighting for freedom of kashmir is a phenomenon that is understood only by pakistan.

as for east pakistan, you need to show some evidence to back up your allegations. evidence that is corroborated by a non-pakistani organisation.

 

[dave007]

The organizations operating out of PK are freedom fighters, since they are fighting Indian occupation.

.

Clearly your president seems to think differently, so does the entire world. Maybe its time to get a president that reflects your views, even though they maybe untrue.

Indian occupation of what? The Maharaja proposed annexation treaty with India, and not Pakistan. Now if you begin to doubt an internationally recognised instrument, that doesnt mean India should pay heed to your sentiments.

India can also, by the same logic not recognise say Sindh as a part of Pakistan, and go hunky-dory over it. Send in "freedom fighters" that kill civialians in the name of Islam.
We have disputed territory with the chinese as well, that doesnt mean China is gonna begin sending in "freedom fighters". What crap is this.If you really want freedom, why don't you take us head on with your army, and not indulge in guirella tactics?

We are indeed supporting, morally and politically, a freedom struggle against an illegal and unjust occupation in blatant violation of the UNSC resolutions and agreements between India, Pakistan and the international community.

And talking of the UN resolution it calls for withdrawal of forces from "both the sides" and conduction of a plebiscite administred by an independent body
with minimum requirement of military presence on "both sides".
What even makes you think any one of the countries would pull out troops from a region that has been fought over for 4 times?

And why are you Pakistani's not mentioning the fact that on 16 March 2001, UN Secretery general Kofi Annan, said categorically that " UN Resolution was not binding on Kashmir and the issue could only be resolved bilaterally"

You can't censor talks about things that are against you when you are debating an issue. Look at all the sides, for once.

What about the UN resolution against terrorism, passed in 2006, stating that a country who's soil is used terror will be held accountable, and under no circumstances can terror be allowed to furnish?

3 Years have passed, and there have been 22 terror attacks emenating from Pak soil. Who is the one violating the resolutions now in the name of "freedom struggle"?

The only 'nonsense' here is your abject lack of knowledge on Indian support for militants in East Pakistan that carried out massacres and killings of non-combatants, and destabilized East Pakistan - sovereign Pakistani territory - and this started in 1968. Add in the support for the BLA.

Abject lack of my knowledge? Who was the one who directed killing on 2 million people. Tortured 2 lakh women and kept them as sex-slaves? To the abject of my knowledhe it was the Pakistan Army.
What do you India was supposed to do when it had 8-10 million immigrants pouring in from Bangladesh? And once again Mukhti Bahini target PA and not Bangladeshis. Like LeT it did not get declared as a terrorist organisation.

 

[Vinod2070]

Once again, Pakistan has not supported terrorists any more than India supported terrorists in East Pakistan and Baluchistan, or the US did in Afghanistan and Latin America.

Institutional support may indeed exist for legitimate groups fighting the Kashmiri freedom struggle against occupation in Kashmir, but that is not support for terrorism.

Pranab Mukerjee is deliberately mixing the above support with the Mumbai attacks, when the two can clearly not be linked in most cases.

If LET is involved in the activities in Kashmir (legitimate in your view) and is also involved in Mumbai attacks (proved by Pakistan's arrests of the likes of Lakhavi, closing down camps, UN banning of it's namesake JUD, that USA report of it being the next AQ etc.), then clearly it is not Pranab who is doing the mixing. It is in the nature of things!

So as I said trying to define good and bad terrorists is clearly not working.I don't know what you mean by most cases!

If they kill civilians in Kashmir 90% of the time and in other parts of India 10% of the time, does that make them respectable terrorists (oops freedom fighters)!

 

[Contrarian]

The organizations operating out of PK are freedom fighters, since they are fighting Indian occupation.


We are indeed supporting, morally and politically, a freedom struggle against an illegal and unjust occupation in blatant violation of the UNSC resolutions and agreements between India, Pakistan and the international community.

You are also supporting the "freedom struggle" with land, arms, training and associated logistics. Please dont forget that.

 

[Vinod2070]

What I meant by Institutional support is the fact that these organizations have been entrusted with a certain mandate that is not liable to change so easily.

Persons at the top, bottom and center may change but the Raison d'être and the motto of the organization may still remain the same.

No individual can change the very purpose of an organization like ISI overnight. The ISI has been following some policies which were formed decades back. Unless the army decides to reverse the course it has cherished for long, shuffling people around won't change anything as we have all seen.

We have not had any indication that there has been any rethink on those policies. No proof that anything beyond cosmetics was ever given a serious thought.

As long as the PA continues to treat India as the mortal enemy that must be fought by means fair and foul, the Institutional support to the likes of LET is going to continue, so also to the Taliban (for strategic depth to counter India and the Afghans be damned).