Pak Army chief decides Kashmir policy not Nawaz Sharif, says secret army note

[Contrarian]

The Army is not truly subservient ..and is. The Chief still calls shots just as the PM does. However, in most matters and in day to day operations the Army is subservient to the PM of Pakistan and are not laying low at all. They are interested in getting a democratic system going because they have realized the damage their involvement in governance has caused their own structure and war-fighting discipline. So while the current Chief has taken independent decisions when the governments moves clashed with its own ideas beyond an extent; he has left domestic policy to the civilian government. Matters such as relations with the US, India and Afghanistan are a different matter where IMO perhaps there is a trade off on the final decision as long as it meets some of the Army's own goals. But increasingly the Army is leaving these decisions more and more to the civilian government and accepts(grudgingly) even those that do not meet its ideas. Will there be another Musharraf waiting to happen? I doubt that since the Army is committed to supporting democratic process Will there be another Gen Kakar who may force a change of government if the incumbent is no longer effective or overly corrupt? That cannot be predicted.The current COAS kept quiet in perhaps one of the most corrupt periods in Pakistani history in the last government but(some say) the reason for it was his overlook of certain corrupt practices within the Army itself. Whatever the case is, the introduction of mass media has limited what the Army can get away with and as such too have decided to meet and change with the times to fit into their constitutional role.

So you are saying that Army is trying to adjust into a new more limited role.
But even the Army realizes that its reason of existence, its hallowed status, its political and emotional power over Pakistan and its funding would be massively curtailed were there to be peace with India.

Dont you think its intuitive that they would try and maintain the status quo with India and keep projecting India as the big villain in Pakistan(like how ISPR doles out cash and logistics to any movie that shows India as the ultimate evil) and sabotage political efforts by GoP to make peace.
Why would they wish to lose all of that ?

 

[SQ8]

So you are saying that Army is trying to adjust into a new more limited role.
But even the Army realizes that its reason of existence, its hallowed status, its political and emotional power over Pakistan and its funding would be massively curtailed were there to be peace with India.

Dont you think its intuitive that they would try and maintain the status quo with India and keep projecting India as the big villain in Pakistan(like how ISPR doles out cash and logistics to any movie that shows India as the ultimate evil) and sabotage political efforts by GoP to make peace.
Why would they wish to lose all of that ?

The same could end up being asked of the IA if saner heads prevailed there as well. The Army's status quo depends on the Indian military status quo..and regardless of the public fanfare of the China threat.. the majority of Indian guns are and will be trained on Pakistan. So its a cyclic issue which would be a suicidal gamble for the weaker party(Pakistan) to break.

ISPR may dole out cash and logistics to propaganda but nothing less comes from the other side, so essentially I see no sin nor unusual activity in this.. nor do I consider it to be an activity that should be changed.

 

[chauvunist]

It is none of India's or anyone else problem who decide what here in Pakistan...You people should be more concerned about your extremist and warmongering policies controlled by hindu extremist Organisations...

 

[Sajid Ayub]

 

[Liquidmetal]

The fact is that the Indian also have to pay heed to their military and cannot willy nilly decide policies. Both countries have their political and economic circles of influence, in India it is the ruling elites of the upper castes, the military establishment and the intelligentsia including the media. As much as you like to deny the issue, there is a dispute between PK and Ind over the issue of Kashmir. Ind has not really been serious in settling the issue, other than calling for the LOC to be converted to the IB. However, there is third party that does not want to be with India, the Kashmiris, which is why in rallies, suppressed by the establishment, you see the flags of PK and call to PK to settle this dispute for them. If it was just the paltry infiltration of a few men across the LOC you would not have 600,00 army of occupiers crushing the freedom movement. The Indian establishment fears this insurgency, because if it was to be settled as per the wishes of the parties concerned then the few dozen other insurgencies would also burst into an open fire.

 

[BATMAN]

Army is definitely not subservient to bunch of thieves and double agents, possessing dual nationalities.
Pakistan is in state of war, and Army got to decide how can they perform their job effectively not some fake degree holder and mentally unstable President.
Army is not a person, it is an institution.

 

[Contrarian]

The same could end up being asked of the IA if saner heads prevailed there as well. The Army's status quo depends on the Indian military status quo..and regardless of the public fanfare of the China threat.. the majority of Indian guns are and will be trained on Pakistan. So its a cyclic issue which would be a suicidal gamble for the weaker party(Pakistan) to break.

I would disagree. IA does not have much to lose if Pakistan were to stop remaining a threat. Most of the funding for IA now comes on the need for raising and maintaining additional assets for the Chinese threat. From the C-17's to the C-130's to the M777's to the new Mountain Strike Corps to new roads and airbases being developed. Almost every major purchase now has China written all over it.
In addition, IA does not wield any political power.

Though you are right that it would/could be a suicidal gamble were Pakistan to break the cycle.
Then again, my question is not for disengagement. My question is that GoP must have every all freedom of action and negotiation over Kashmir with India. PA should not be deal maker or breaker in this - which it is now.

ISPR may dole out cash and logistics to propaganda but nothing less comes from the other side, so essentially I see no sin nor unusual activity in this.. nor do I consider it to be an activity that should be changed.

What is the other side ?
IA does not dole out cash to movie makers!
PA should remain limited to Pakistani borders, not manufacture cornflakes or decide Public policy or decide to finance one film over the other.
You dont agree that PA should remain limited to their Constitutional role?

 

[dabong1]

Because there is Pakistan that claims that Kashmir is disputed.

It was nehru-india that took the kasmir issue to the UN not pakistan .
Up until Nehru took the issue to the UN , there were two parties to the dispute, India and Pakistan. The Security Council’s resolution added a third party, the people of Jammu & Kashmir.

There is no need to be terrified. Don't plan any military misadventure on Kashmir. Everything should be OK.

But we both know that pakisan and india will keep "planning about kashmir" up until we come to some fair resolution that keeps all parties happy.....it will have to be a big fudge.

 

[dabong1]

It was taken to UN by Nehru to get Pakistan Occupied Kashmir back, believe it or not.

My comment was directed towards jade who said that the kashmir was a "integral part" of india which i find a bit contradictive......You took the issue to the UN, and you are the ones that said kashmir can decide its own future but now state that its a "integral part" of india?

He specifically asked UN to hold a plebiscite in Pak Occupied Kashmir (with the choice to join India or Pak)

Which he didn't get......I think you find that the UN wants a vote in the whole disputed area and not just the regions(AJK) indian or pakistan choose.

which was invaded by hired Pathan tribesmen.

The good old "crazy bloodsucking killer pathan tribesman" story that most indian have been fed since the first kashmir war is just indian propaganda.....a bit of truth maybe here and there but mostly lies.

Fast forward today, and neither has happened and status quo has prevailed for the most part.

I agree, but i don't like the status quo .

 

[SQ8]

I would disagree. IA does not have much to lose if Pakistan were to stop remaining a threat.

Though you are right that it would/could be a suicidal gamble were Pakistan to break the cycle.
Then again, my question is not for disengagement. My question is that GoP must have every all freedom of action and negotiation over Kashmir with India. PA should not be deal maker or breaker in this - which it is now.

What is the other side ?
IA does not dole out cash to movie makers!
PA should remain limited to Pakistani borders, not manufacture cornflakes or decide Public policy or decide to finance one film over the other.
You dont agree that PA should remain limited to their Constitutional role?

What of the IA's corps and strengths that are concentrated along the western border? Will they remain there regardless of Pakistan being a threat or not? Would you be willing to justify that morally on the grounds that a near invasion force still sits on the border of a nation that is no longer a threat?

That is an odd suggestion considering that this thread is based on a IA note that specifically is for policy influence. Unless the Indian government is stupid it will take the IA's suggestion into confidence. What difference is there if
the PA gives similar briefings to the GoP on Indian activities and postures and gives recommendations?
What is good for the goose is good for the gander. It is the GoP which negotiates based on these recommendations.

And the other side is the Bollywood Propaganda churnout. At the end , they all are for the same purpose of deriding the other nation. It was the producers Idea to create the movie and not otherwise. The same way previous series were imagined based on the producers idea. He requested ISPR for assistance and they obliged.. sure they had input on the story but that was the producers request. In the same manner the US Movie "Act of Valor" had full assistance of the US SOCOM.. the only difference is that they(and bollywood) have established production houses with financing.. and the PA's constitutional role has no clauses that prohibit it from assisting in such projects nor are the morally wrong. Otherwise you can call the US movies from WWII to the Korean war unconstitutional as well for them too. What is good for the goose is good for the Gander. Just because it is Pakistan does not automatically mean it is wrong.

 

[Slayer786]

It doesn't matter whether Pakistan establishment or Pakistan army decides on Kashmir. Kashmir is integral part of India. Any misadventure by Pakistan army in Kashmir would be replied with double the force.

LOl. With 700,000 of your occupation forces barely able to control the Kashmiris, you think of taking us on. LOl. Even after we keep sending mujahideen across the loc and killing of your soldiers on the border. Do Mumbai type attacks, All you guys do is give threats.
To attack someone you need balls. And funnily enough you guys are lacking on that. LOL.

 

[American Pakistani]

Is this a news or secret by any way? 


????????????

And do you believe NS could have done what he did without PA's approval in Mushy's Kargil Fiasco?

NS was trying to act like a big boss of Pakistan in 99 & act alone...just like he is acting like a big boss of Pakistan rite now. Zardari was much smarter than NS who knows it is suicidal to play with fire(in this case PA) & he kept away. 

Because there is Pakistan that claims that Kashmir is disputed.

There is no need to be terrified. Don't plan any military misadventure on Kashmir. Everything should be OK.

Terrified...my foot. You think someone gives a f00k about your army? Sorry boss your 0.7million army could not handle IOK/Maqbooza Kashmir in 30 years so everything is not OK as you would like to believe.