PAF's possible answer to MRCA

[MZUBAIR]

I think that info is wrong, cause the trials will start between this and next month and a decision will be announced at the end of 2010, or beginning 2011. Production in India will start around 2014 but in the meantime the first squad will be in production outside of India.

A solid backbone yes, but but only at the lower end of PAF! You must admit that it won't be as good as J10 or F16 block 52 and these will be the quality fighters of PAF. The quantitative edge might be reduced a bit, but with MKI, MMRCA and already inducted AWACS and in development 5. gen fighter the qualitatively edge will stay clearly on IAF side.
IMO PAF is counting on the wrong aircraft and should build numbers of J10 instead of JF17.

Ur underestimating JF-17. At the moment it can be compare with F-16 Block 40, soon it will be furthur improved to comapre with Block 52 F-16 and ultimate goal is Block 60, F-16.

So Approach is different as ur thinking. I feel that PAF planned it to counter MKI.

250 JF-17 vs 250 MKI.

I am not comparing which is best or which is not , but Pakistan is making it to counter MKI.

I agree that MKI is batter then JF-17 at the momment but
Pakistan's ultimate goal of Jf-17 would be to counter MKI.

JF-17 has great potentail to improve.

Thats Y Pakistan is still looking for new engines, avoinics and radar for JF-17.

F-16's are planned for mig 29
46 F-16 vs 56 Mig29

and J-10B for Indias MRCA deal.


Mirage 2K, Jaguar, Mig27 Mig 21 vs Mirage 3, Mirage 5, F-7PG.

J-10B is different sort of fighter, Its not a light air craft as JF-17 ...It would have more enhanced capabilities then JF-17.....ofcourse there may be many similarities in JF-17 n J-10B coz JF-17 been taken from Chinees technology.

Well, in the end I wuld say that Pakistan is progressing in the field of Air craft....so the more success on JF-17 will launch new rooms for 5th or 6th generation fighters. JF-17 is just beggining but Pakistan's ultimate goal is to achieve production capability of craft.....Pakistan is looking for future plans for 5th generation air craft.
________________________________________________

I hope this clears u many things.
I think at the moment PAF is going on right track.

 

[Manticore]

I also think sooner or later there will be more J10s, but my point was, that J10 is pretty much in the same class as JF17, but more capable. A PAF with 250 J10 as their backbone fighter, instead of 250 JF17 would be totally different don't you think? As I said above to blain2, I don't see much cost difference between both aircrafts, but in performance there should be a clear difference!
And with them as the backbone fighter, it would be easier to add some double engine medium, or even heavy class fighters.
In fact isn't PLAAF doing just the same? As far as I know they won't have much FC 1, but numbers of FC 20 right? They will add them alongside of the heavy J11 and Su 30 MKK, so if that is the best choice for them and you are developing those fighters and techs more or less together, why wasn't it also the best choice for PAF?

The PAF is looking for a total of 150 high end aircraft like the F-16 Block 52s and the FC-20 (J-10Bs or J-10Ps). The FC-20s could be procured in greater numbers, depending on relations with the U.S. and the operability of the F-16s.

==>The J-10Ps and the JF-17s make a perfect pair - one ideal for high altitude air superiority and deep strike missions while the other ideal as a true multirole fighter.

==>Where the J-10 lacks in deep strike, the F-16s make up for it.

==>Where the J-10s lack in CAS, the JF-17s make up for it.

==> Where the JF-17 lacks in high altitude BVR engagements, the J-10s make up for it.

With the AESA equipped new J-10Bs, higher thrust engines and better EW/Avionics, PAF would reclaim the qualitative edge over the IAF. These J-10s would be superior in air combat than anything that the IAF fields today and would only be matched by a possible MRCA acquisition by India.

==> Even then, with the 5 present contenders left in the MRCA, only the Eurofighter (assuming AESA radars) would be able to match the J-10 in air-to-air combat.


While the F-16 sacrificed supersonic performance for subsonic dogfighting, the J-10 did not make the same sacrifice. Thus, while when the F-16 was designed, turning dogfights were what was projected as the bread and butter of air combat, when the J-10 was being designed, the BVR era had arrived (or re-arrived). The J-10s aerodynamic design, including wing design and inlet design, take this into account. For instance, the J-10 visibly has greater wing sweep and a variable inlet. With the J-10B, a DSI intake. While the J-10B sacrifices maximum theoretical top speeds with its DSI intakes, for all relevant combat speeds, it gives the J-10 superior performance.




JF-17s would not only allow PAF to counter numbers, but also allow her to maintain larger numbers of FC-20s and F-16s for war-time and lower their depreciation - providing a low cost training aircraft to fly liberally during peacetime. This would be a similar arrangement to how the Israeli Air Force uses F-16s to keep meet the flight time allocations of its F-15 pilots.


The F-16 has also been adding weight over time and attempting to counterbalance this with increased engine thrust. However, since wing area remained the same, maneuverability has been sacrificed. Higher wing loading is particularly detrimental for higher altitude maneuverability. The J-10 on the other hand, has all the wing area it could ever need with a delta canard layout.

The newer block F-16s however, are great for low altitude air-to-ground missions. The high wing loading favors low fliers and the moderate wing sweep helps handling at lower speeds often necessary during ordnance delivery. The J-10 is thus not ideal for the CAS role. However, because of the range and payload advantages, the J-10 can be considered an effective deep striker. CAS was never a pressing need for the PLAAF, and the PAF has the JF-17 which is ideal for that role.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/19930-paf-shouldve-invested-more-j-10s-7.html

 

[Manticore]

the present jf17s are replacing a5s.... so its a great leap...
when block2 arrives, i hope its really upgraded to replace our old f7s

chinese and pakistans war docitrine is different.. furthermore it also depends on the enemy location... india is not that distant..so if equal avionic capability is obtained in self produced jf17 as compared to j10b.... in half the price, then thats great...just add them to an air-refueller.

yes i do like to have 3 squadrons of heavy/double engined jets... forget about the docitine of no double enjined jets.. with ws13, it would be great
paf has flown f6, a5 anyway which are double engined

 

[sancho]

I don't know how reliable that link is. Also, I've quoted your very own Chief of Air Staff from an internationally reputed Aviation magazine. Therefore, forgive me if I still choose to disagree with you. I maintain, no MMRCA before 2015, or maybe late 2014. But I could be wrong.

I think you misinterpret his statement, cause he didn't say there won't be any MMRCA by 2017, but only substantial numbers right?
As I said only 1 squad will come from a foreign coutry, the rest will be licence produced like MKI and the production rate will be increased by time. So isn't he still right that there won't be big numbers ob MMRCA by 2017?

do not misguide him dear!

it have been discussed a billion time n the thread that the erieye have full 360 degree coverage with same range on 450Km in every direction!

I didn't, Erieye might have 360° coverage, but full detection range can only be offered to the sides, cause it has only 2 radar arrays heading to the sides. The rotodome on A50 instead gives full detection range to all directions. I explained it in the AWACS thread also on base of the Boeing 737 MESA AWACS (it uses a 3rd array on top to get detection to front and back sides).
I don't say Phalcon system is much better then Erieye, but the A50 platform with rotodome is better than any platforms with only 2 radar arrays (Saab 2000 Erieye, EMB 145 Erieye, DRDO AWACS...)

 

[sancho]

Ur underestimating JF-17. At the moment it can be compare with F-16 Block 40, soon it will be furthur improved to comapre with Block 52 F-16 and ultimate goal is Block 60, F-16.

That's what I am saying, the J10 already starts at F16 MLU level and goal of F16 block 60 can way easier achieved, than with JF17.

I feel that PAF planned it to counter MKI.

250 JF-17 vs 250 MKI.

I am not comparing which is best or which is not , but Pakistan is making it to counter MKI.

I agree that MKI is batter then JF-17 at the momment but
Pakistan's ultimate goal of Jf-17 would be to counter MKI.

JF-17 has great potentail to improve.

Sorry sir, I highly doubt that, specially against MKI! The performance of both aircrafts is way to different, only the same numbers are nearly the same. I think nobody expects 250 JF17 would counter 250 F15 or?
And not only JF will improve further, here are latest news of MKI upgrade:

FORCE - A Complete News Magazine on National Security - Defence Magazine

With the AESA equipped new J-10Bs, higher thrust engines and better EW/Avionics, PAF would reclaim the qualitative edge over the IAF. These J-10s would be superior in air combat than anything that the IAF fields today and would only be matched by a possible MRCA acquisition by India.

==> Even then, with the 5 present contenders left in the MRCA, only the Eurofighter (assuming AESA radars) would be able to match the J-10 in air-to-air combat.

At this point this is wishful thinking, cause too less is known about J10B capabilities (radar, EWS, t/w ratio). I highly doubt that J10B can match Rafale, or EF because of better t/w ratio and even F18SH in BVR combats with it's AESA and AMRAAM missiles will be a big problem, so will upg MKI be. Gripen NG and F16 block 60 will be a better comparison for J10.

so if equal avionic capability is obtained in self produced jf17 as compared to j10b.... in half the price, then thats great...just add them to an air-refueller.

It's not about more fuel that makes J10 better than JF 17, but it is more maneuverable with canards, highter thrust engine, maybe even 3D TVC. So even if it would get the same avionics, the design alone makes a big difference.

 

[SBD-3]

With J-10B already in the skies as a reality.Why PAF is waiting so long 2015? IMHO it is waiting for IAF MRCA result while stressing for futher upgrades (probably for WS-13 or WS-10A and AESA) PAF could also think about acquiring J-11Bs in unusual situations rather than MCRA contenders due to the fact that their abilities will be known to IAF due to testing them
@Arsalan
lolz dont worry bro I am A Okey

 

[Munir]

If the numbers are raised i does not matter which plane you fly... Sancho. Basic rule.

 

[Gucci Juice]

The PAF is looking for a total of 150 high end aircraft like the F-16 Block 52s and the FC-20 (J-10Bs or J-10Ps). The FC-20s could be procured in greater numbers, depending on relations with the U.S. and the operability of the F-16s.

==>The J-10Ps and the JF-17s make a perfect pair - one ideal for high altitude air superiority and deep strike missions while the other ideal as a true multirole fighter.

==>Where the J-10 lacks in deep strike, the F-16s make up for it.

==>Where the J-10s lack in CAS, the JF-17s make up for it.

==> Where the JF-17 lacks in high altitude BVR engagements, the J-10s make up for it.

With the AESA equipped new J-10Bs, higher thrust engines and better EW/Avionics, PAF would reclaim the qualitative edge over the IAF. These J-10s would be superior in air combat than anything that the IAF fields today and would only be matched by a possible MRCA acquisition by India.

==> Even then, with the 5 present contenders left in the MRCA, only the Eurofighter (assuming AESA radars) would be able to match the J-10 in air-to-air combat.


While the F-16 sacrificed supersonic performance for subsonic dogfighting, the J-10 did not make the same sacrifice. Thus, while when the F-16 was designed, turning dogfights were what was projected as the bread and butter of air combat, when the J-10 was being designed, the BVR era had arrived (or re-arrived). The J-10s aerodynamic design, including wing design and inlet design, take this into account. For instance, the J-10 visibly has greater wing sweep and a variable inlet. With the J-10B, a DSI intake. While the J-10B sacrifices maximum theoretical top speeds with its DSI intakes, for all relevant combat speeds, it gives the J-10 superior performance.




JF-17s would not only allow PAF to counter numbers, but also allow her to maintain larger numbers of FC-20s and F-16s for war-time and lower their depreciation - providing a low cost training aircraft to fly liberally during peacetime. This would be a similar arrangement to how the Israeli Air Force uses F-16s to keep meet the flight time allocations of its F-15 pilots.


The F-16 has also been adding weight over time and attempting to counterbalance this with increased engine thrust. However, since wing area remained the same, maneuverability has been sacrificed. Higher wing loading is particularly detrimental for higher altitude maneuverability. The J-10 on the other hand, has all the wing area it could ever need with a delta canard layout.

The newer block F-16s however, are great for low altitude air-to-ground missions. The high wing loading favors low fliers and the moderate wing sweep helps handling at lower speeds often necessary during ordnance delivery. The J-10 is thus not ideal for the CAS role. However, because of the range and payload advantages, the J-10 can be considered an effective deep striker. CAS was never a pressing need for the PLAAF, and the PAF has the JF-17 which is ideal for that role.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/19930-paf-shouldve-invested-more-j-10s-7.html

are u stupid or something? j-10B superior than the mki, mig-35, rafael, and sh? and comparable to the ef typhoon? have u done any research at all?

lets do ef vs j-10 in performance

j-10 21000 lb empty with 130 kn thrust
ef 24000 lb empty with 180 kn thrust

that already tells u which is superior

mki 40000 lb empty with 262 kn thrust (which according to reports could go to as high as 300+kn thrust after upgrade)

rafael 20,000 lb empty with 150 kn thrust

f-16 20000 lb empty with 144 kn thrust

sh 30,000 lb empty with 196 kn thrust

mig-35 33,000 lb empty with 176 kn thrust

the j-10 isn't even comparable to the f-16 in aerodynamics and it sure as hell cant compare with ANY mrca fighter in terms of electronics, radar, ew systems, and avionics.

and by the time j-10 arrives mki is due for an upgrade with aesa, 3d tvc, supercruise, and "smart skin" as i'm told but these are just rumors just like rumors about j-10 having aesa, tvc, etc...

 

[dave]

Onemore time where the money come from all these ac. I think the people talk like piece of cake. China develop the programe and make AC and give pakistan. I don't think pakistan can serwive. How many time brother can help you people of china pay the tax too. It's my thought. Otherwise fourm is open for more discussion.

 

[Arsalan]

i guess we will answer it when the QUESTION will be asked by the MRCA, and dude tell you what, we are going to answer them the hard way!

 

[dave]

Life is full of choice but you have to make right choice on right time. All this expence is possibel but ISI have to make more bin laden and world give you money like last eight years. Sidhi ungly se ghee na nikle to ungly tedi karo ghee jaroo nikle ga. just my thought may be my tax money go to pakistan

 

[Manticore]

are u stupid or something? j-10B superior than the mki, mig-35, rafael, and sh? and comparable to the ef typhoon? have u done any research at all?

lets do ef vs j-10 in performance

j-10 21000 lb empty with 130 kn thrust
ef 24000 lb empty with 180 kn thrust

that already tells u which is superior

mki 40000 lb empty with 262 kn thrust (which according to reports could go to as high as 300+kn thrust after upgrade)

rafael 20,000 lb empty with 150 kn thrust

f-16 20000 lb empty with 144 kn thrust

sh 30,000 lb empty with 196 kn thrust

mig-35 33,000 lb empty with 176 kn thrust

the j-10 isn't even comparable to the f-16 in aerodynamics and it sure as hell cant compare with ANY mrca fighter in terms of electronics, radar, ew systems, and avionics.

and by the time j-10 arrives mki is due for an upgrade with aesa, 3d tvc, supercruise, and "smart skin" as i'm told but these are just rumors just like rumors about j-10 having aesa, tvc, etc...

firstly
mods please look at the comments i highlighted.thanks

secondly
the report from where i quoeted and gave the link says

''With the AESA equipped new J-10Bs, higher thrust engines and better EW/Avionics, PAF would reclaim the qualitative edge over the IAF. These J-10s would be superior in air combat than anything that the IAF fields today and would only be matched by a possible MRCA acquisition by India.''
i think g.juice forgot to read this.

thirdly this topic from where i quoted is written by the mods and military proffessionals of this forum... dont call them stupid.. this makes u look stupid

fourthly
''the j-10 isn't even comparable to the f-16 in aerodynamics ''
read the report carefully,thats what the report was saying anyway...

... because of the introduction of bvrs, the war tactics have gont towards swept wings from dogfighting

fifthly,
all u did was to try to posts thrusts of different engines. dude do u actually know anything about the chinese engines? not even in a blue moon

sixthly
last time i checked, iaf hasent placed any orders, only the specs u required... this has helped paf in catching up and instead of j10a, we are going for j10b with better avionics and engine package.... thanks

 

[SBD-3]

Onemore time where the money come from all these ac. I think the people talk like piece of cake. China develop the programe and make AC and give pakistan. I don't think pakistan can serwive. How many time brother can help you people of china pay the tax too. It's my thought. Otherwise fourm is open for more discussion.

Um well a simple answer to this might be that.Whether China is selling these ACs free or on discounted bases ok as we know that JF-17 is a joint venture so whatever is the earning its gonna be shared and PAF did contribute development cost. If the matter what you are talking about is considered as right then there should be no TOT in the world if China sells ToT to Pakistan it helps china coverning their developmental cost. I mean how many J-10s can china induct? 300 400 500? there is always a limit so what they have incured on R&D they can recover a part of that from Pakistan and like wise other countries as i see it, it is Pakistani Tax Payers coming for the benefit of chinese tax payers
ok lets talk about the real burden on the Tax payers two examples LCA and Arjun.These projects are decades old now and the cost contributed to these projects came out of where? Indian peoples pockets. Lets assume that the cost rises significantly and IAF goes for MCRA rather than LCA and IA goes for Russian Tanks (i think) which it already has done who will be held accountable for this loss and LCA not for export all the burden will be shared by Indian Tax Payers

 

[Arsalan]

firstly
mods please look at the comments i highlighted.thanks

secondly
the report from where i quoeted and gave the link says

''With the AESA equipped new J-10Bs, higher thrust engines and better EW/Avionics, PAF would reclaim the qualitative edge over the IAF. These J-10s would be superior in air combat than anything that the IAF fields today and would only be matched by a possible MRCA acquisition by India.''
i think g.juice forgot to read this.

thirdly this topic from where i quoted is written by the mods and military proffessionals of this forum... dont call them stupid.. this makes u look stupid

fourthly
''the j-10 isn't even comparable to the f-16 in aerodynamics ''
read the report carefully,thats what the report was saying anyway...

... because of the introduction of bvrs, the war tactics have gont towards swept wings from dogfighting

fifthly,
all u did was to try to posts thrusts of different engines. dude do u actually know anything about the chinese engines? not even in a blue moon

sixthly
last time i checked, iaf hasent placed any orders, only the specs u required... this has helped paf in catching up and instead of j10a, we are going for j10b with better avionics and engine package.... thanks

that was perhaps a perfect answer answer for such a rubbish post! well done brother, i hope the mods will take good care of such events!
thanks,,

regards!

 

[Gucci Juice]

firstly
mods please look at the comments i highlighted.thanks

secondly
the report from where i quoeted and gave the link says

''With the AESA equipped new J-10Bs, higher thrust engines and better EW/Avionics, PAF would reclaim the qualitative edge over the IAF. These J-10s would be superior in air combat than anything that the IAF fields today and would only be matched by a possible MRCA acquisition by India.''
i think g.juice forgot to read this.

thirdly this topic from where i quoted is written by the mods and military proffessionals of this forum... dont call them stupid.. this makes u look stupid

fourthly
''the j-10 isn't even comparable to the f-16 in aerodynamics ''
read the report carefully,thats what the report was saying anyway...

... because of the introduction of bvrs, the war tactics have gont towards swept wings from dogfighting

fifthly,
all u did was to try to posts thrusts of different engines. dude do u actually know anything about the chinese engines? not even in a blue moon

sixthly
last time i checked, iaf hasent placed any orders, only the specs u required... this has helped paf in catching up and instead of j10a, we are going for j10b with better avionics and engine package.... thanks

i dont think so... the aesa, avionics, and higher thrust engines aren't cheap and would raise the price of the j-10 to 50-60 million a piece considering it costs 41 million today. and since china's aesa is quite new and there aren't economies of scale it should be at least 5 million a piece, and non-chinese avionics aren't cheap either look at the mirage 2000 upgrade 20 million a piece.

also noone knows real specs of j-10.

and i think its been confirmed by a magazine that the mki will get aesa, 3d tvc, supercruise, smart skin, and new avionics.

evidence for this?

2 mki's sent to irkut to be strengthened to fire brahmos, they'll arrive back in 2011, does it really take 2 years to strengthen a frame? something must be up.