PAF's possible answer to MRCA

[p2prada]

60% of the Gripen is American parts as well...

Time to reconsider Rafale ?

LOL yeah.

 

[Kharian_Beast]

Well, I guess I'm a Rafale fan now. I like the way France responded in that link you gave earlier, they are really trying to differentiate themselves from the rest of the pack in a good way.

I'm going on a separate tangent here but if India rejects the Mig 35 would that result in strained Pak-Fa cooperation? That would leave India in a precarious position, no F-35 (if a non - US plane is chosen), no Pak FA.

 

[Imran Khan]

Opinion: Gripen hard to beat in Indian MMRCA contest
Jane's is not responsible for the content within or linking from Industry Links pages.
While there is no shortage of fighter aircraft procurement programmes currently under way, the most eagerly anticipated contest is undoubtedly India's medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) requirement for at least 126 aircraft.

The six contenders have now submitted their proposals: Boeing's F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Dassault's Rafale, Eurofighter's Typhoon, Lockheed Martin's F-16, Russian Aircraft Corporation's (RAC's) MiG with the MiG-35 and the Saab JAS 39 Gripen. Arguably each aircraft stands a fighting chance of securing the lucrative USD10 billion contract.

India continues to have a close relationship with Dassault, which supplied the Indian Air Force (IAF) with Mirage 2000 fighters in the 1980s. However, given the IAF's emphasis on future upgrades for its MMRCA aircraft, the lack of operators of the Rafale is likely to be seen as a significant issue.

The Rafale and the Typhoon could also struggle with the issue of cost. Both are relatively large twin-engined platforms, which will significantly increase operating costs compared with the single-engined MiG-21 fleet it will replace.

The MiG-35 is seen by many as a strong contender. India has a very close relationship with Russia, which has provided the majority of its equipment over the past 30 years. However, over the past year India's relationship with Russia with regards to arms contracts has soured.

The two US contenders seem well placed in terms of price and capability as India seeks to establish closer military bonds with Washington. However the F-16 is hindered by the fact that Pakistan already operates the type. Furthermore the aircraft is already being phased out by the US Air Force.

The Boeing Super Hornet does not suffer from these issues. However, one unresolved issue with regards to both US platforms is the authorisation of technology transfer.

Saab holds a strong hand with the Gripen. The aircraft is single engined, which will keep operating costs low, upgrades are already being defined under the Gripen Demonstrator programme and acquisition costs are highly competitive.

Image: The aircraft selected as India's MMRCA will replace its MiG-21s (pictured) (Patrick

 

[Kharian_Beast]

Opinion: Gripen hard to beat in Indian MMRCA contest
Jane's is not responsible for the content within or linking from Industry Links pages.
While there is no shortage of fighter aircraft procurement programmes currently under way, the most eagerly anticipated contest is undoubtedly India's medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) requirement for at least 126 aircraft.

The six contenders have now submitted their proposals: Boeing's F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Dassault's Rafale, Eurofighter's Typhoon, Lockheed Martin's F-16, Russian Aircraft Corporation's (RAC's) MiG with the MiG-35 and the Saab JAS 39 Gripen. Arguably each aircraft stands a fighting chance of securing the lucrative USD10 billion contract.

India continues to have a close relationship with Dassault, which supplied the Indian Air Force (IAF) with Mirage 2000 fighters in the 1980s. However, given the IAF's emphasis on future upgrades for its MMRCA aircraft, the lack of operators of the Rafale is likely to be seen as a significant issue.

The Rafale and the Typhoon could also struggle with the issue of cost. Both are relatively large twin-engined platforms, which will significantly increase operating costs compared with the single-engined MiG-21 fleet it will replace.

The MiG-35 is seen by many as a strong contender. India has a very close relationship with Russia, which has provided the majority of its equipment over the past 30 years. However, over the past year India's relationship with Russia with regards to arms contracts has soured.

The two US contenders seem well placed in terms of price and capability as India seeks to establish closer military bonds with Washington. However the F-16 is hindered by the fact that Pakistan already operates the type. Furthermore the aircraft is already being phased out by the US Air Force.

The Boeing Super Hornet does not suffer from these issues. However, one unresolved issue with regards to both US platforms is the authorisation of technology transfer.

Saab holds a strong hand with the Gripen. The aircraft is single engined, which will keep operating costs low, upgrades are already being defined under the Gripen Demonstrator programme and acquisition costs are highly competitive.

Image: The aircraft selected as India's MMRCA will replace its MiG-21s (pictured) (Patrick

Interesting though Janes doesn't really justify the title in this article, I think all the contenders have the same chance as the Gripen because India will look at more factors than just cost at this critical evaluation stage.

 

[p2prada]

Well, I guess I'm a Rafale fan now. I like the way France responded in that link you gave earlier, they are really trying to differentiate themselves from the rest of the pack in a good way.

Yes and If india chooses Rafale, other countries thinking of buying western aircraft will be keen to find out why india chose the rafale compared to Gripen, EF, F-16/18, and Mig-35. This will also help further Dassault's cause to get more customers.

I'm going on a separate tangent here but if India rejects the Mig 35 would that result in strained Pak-Fa cooperation? That would leave India in a precarious position, no F-35, no Pak FA.

Not true. The PAKFA is a completely different project that comes under the jurisdiction of Sukhoi. The Mig-35 belongs to the MiG corp. Sukhoi will actually be happy that MiG was not chosen. The russian companies have their own competition, similar to how Lockheed Martin and Boeing are competing for the MRCA with their F-16 and F-18 respectively. Anyways, we are already buying a few Mig-29k from the Mig corp for our carriers.
The F-35s will come with "strings attached." So, they will not be a good option in the long run.

 

[p2prada]

Interesting though Janes doesn't really justify the title in this article, I think all the contenders have the same chance as the Gripen because India will look at more factors than just cost at this critical evaluation stage.

The Janes article was probably written Before Dassault allowed Full ToT with AESA. I believe Rafale has the best chance now. Followed by Gripen and Mig-35.

 

[daredevil]

Isn't Rafale very expensive?.

 

[Kharian_Beast]

Isn't Rafale very expensive?.

Yes, second most expensive platform being considered for MMRCA after EF-T, roughly 75-85 million USD. Someone with exact figure can back me up.

 

[p2prada]

$75-85 million sounds right. But we will be producing the aircraft in india itself, using composite materials. The price will come down.

 

[Jliu]

I like the idea of this thread and believe that this question should be taken seriously

Good to see someone thinking. Despite the horrific budgetary crunch that has
all but crippled the economy such issues should be considered given the shifting nature of the strategic balance.

Within the next 5 years India will be operating 4.5-5 gen aircraft as their front line fighters, all packing AESA, BVR, with top of the line engines and avionics, helmet mounted sights and thrust vectoring or super cruise.

They will not but that is not the point here. The point is that all assets will be networked via datalink into a AAD grid and be capable of situational awareness with the consequential impact of overall increase in sortie efficiency as their recent forays into Red Flag reveal with a little help from the Colonel if you havn't already seen from youtube.

This is worrying because our F-16 will be hard pressed to match a Rafale or Typhoon, even the Super Hornet would cause serious problems with its radar, and our F-16 will lose its advantage due to sheer numbers alone.

The F-18E/F block II as ordered by us and if by India will likely be the most significant peer threat to the PAF in the next two decades given what is known in defence circles about the "PAK-FA paper aeroplane" and Late Comiing Aircraft of the IAF.

I don't want to compare the JF-17 yet to a Block 60 F-16 or a modified Gripen, so we need a serious deterrent...J10 or FC-20 is basically a legacy era F-16, what's the point of buying them? They have never been tested in battle and China only has 100 of them while the F-16 has proven itself and there are more than 4,000 flying around in the world today.

The point is that your pollies get in nice and cozy with the Chinese and they give you a bit of rice In other words some ToT so industry can feel good about local co-production etc. I was at the Zhuhai Airshow recently and I can tell you while 'clean' J-10s looked and flew rather spectacularly as all fighters do when in that configuration let me assure you when loaded up in counter air at OPRED with 6x AAM winftip, 2x Droptank centreline and 2x ordnance mid pylons the thing won't be half as maneuverable as they show it to the fanboys and politicians.

We need to evaluate real aircraft in a similar manner in a similar schedule as the MRCA program otherwise the balance in air power will be completely with India if it isn't already due to the SU-30 threat.

I am against purchasing 2-3 squadrons of FC-20. Maximum amount of capital should be reserved for our next front line fighter, or the expenditure can be shifted to JF-17 program instead.

My personal choice would be Eurofighter if India doesn't choose it. If they were to choose it I would go with Gripen NG. Let j10 develop and mature into what it was supposed to be, and once it has, let it be incorporated amongst the Typhoon or Gripen squadrons. Having the right fighter planes is much more important than any other equipment issue in the entire military.

Used Gripens from the Swedish AF upgraded to C/D standard with a fit of 8x AMRAAM is more than enough in my opinion given compatabilities with the Erieye system with cueing offloads able to be directed from the AWACS. The short legs of the Gripen don't matter as they'll mainly be counter air anyway. Scrap the J-10 plans and the JF-17 program and use the funds for 2nd hand Falcon OCUs and the above.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Scrap the J-10 plans and the JF-17 program and use the funds for 2nd hand Falcon OCUs and the above.

even though you are one of the most military intellectual member in this forum but with all due respect your last line killed all of your reputation.
why scrap the J-10 when we dont even know what PAF variant is gonna be like? why scrap JF-17 for 100 odd high hours clock F-16s? Current 32 PAF F-16 and 14 ex-PAK/USN f-16 is a vise decision to give them MLU. PAF is only interested in very few hours clocked airframes like in the recently released F-16's case. the upgraded F-16 will have only 25 max years of service. and lol do you want us to go through US strings attached with F-16s? If their was no JF-17 or FC-20 program for PAF the US would have probably made us do 10 times more of the dirty work for them then now what we are doing.

 

[Jliu]

why scrap the J-10 when we dont even know what PAF variant is gonna be like?

In response to that I can ask you: When is the PAF variant approaching IOC?
Do you know the technical and operational parameters of the PLAAF variant of the J-10 or for that matter does Pakistan? How does a J-10 compare to Falcon MLU/OCU variants in battlespace application?-by that I'm talking situational awareness/networking, a DEMONSTRATED BVR capability behind all the Chinese hype about the SD-10 which has apparently on begun limited trials and most importantly are the Chinese going to give Pakistan full access to the supply management chain for the J-10 with regards for full servicibility of the radar unit, EW Suite and sensor suite?

why scrap JF-17 for 100 odd high hours clock F-16s? Current 32 PAF F-16 and 14 ex-PAK/USN f-16 is a vise decision to give them MLU. PAF is only interested in very few hours clocked airframes like in the recently released F-16's case. the upgraded F-16 will have only 25 max years of service. and lol do you want us to go through US strings attached with F-16s? If their was no JF-17 or FC-20 program for PAF the US would have probably made us do 10 times more of the dirty work for them then now what we are doing.

Why do you think Jordan ordered 25year+ Falcon airframes and continue to order after numerous Pakistani and Chinese presentations re: the JF-17 on the parameters of life cycle cost, purchase price, customisation and integration?

Because the Falcon is proven and the others are not. Because the Falcon offers true strike/interdiction/counter air capability with battlespace awareness that in many cases confer first shot advantages over adversaries that do not. Age doesn't really apply in these cases as the Benelux countries maintain their airframes well and a MLU w/ centreline barrel replacement (remanufacture) will get you an airframe just about new-ish. Same applies with the Gripen which in counter air is truly outstanding not only in the much quoted fanboy areas of maenueverability, how many AAMs can be carried etc. but in the informational awareness grid arena.

The JF-17 and J-10 cannot be "plugged in" to AEW assets the PAF has and even when a datalink solution is found it will lag behind full Link 16 Block III standards found now on Western designs. Lack of bandwith means you might as well use GCI when up against your particular peer adversary.

If you've watched the Red Flag video of the performance of the IAF several things the Colonel said should be on your mind.

#1 Despite several instances of fratricide the IAF is improving Information dominance across the board in particular the linkage between the MIG-21BM and MKI assets via Elbit M-II for "sharing" targeting information for BVR. In other words you have a "swarm" of expendable Bisons capable of AA-12 BVR shots linked to Phalcon AWACS, Green Pine Search Radar and MKI shooters ALL able to "see" deep within Pakistan-indeed as far as the Western Iranian border/Iraq.
#2 The Indians as I've repeated don't particularly care about losses-you do.
#3 The induction of about a hundred-two hundred MRCA (I bet Super Hornet) able to be directly plugged into that grid and you think the J-10 and JF-17 are the answer?

 

[Myth_buster_1]

In response to that I can ask you: When is the PAF variant approaching IOC?
Do you know the technical and operational parameters of the PLAAF variant of the J-10 or for that matter does Pakistan? How does a J-10 compare to Falcon MLU/OCU variants in battlespace application?-by that I'm talking situational awareness/networking, a DEMONSTRATED BVR capability behind all the Chinese hype about the SD-10 which has apparently on begun limited trials and most importantly are the Chinese going to give Pakistan full access to the supply management chain for the J-10 with regards for full servicibility of the radar unit, EW Suite and sensor suite? ?

like i said. we dont even know PAF J-10 variant but from various source it is suppose to have European avionics and possibly radar with some structural improvements. the technical detail still remains classified so you shouldn’t jump to conclusion that FC-20 sucks simply because its chinese made. i am only going to stick to PAF ACM words that FC-20 will be a more advance fighter then current J-10and F-16 block 52.

Why do you think Jordan ordered 25year+ Falcon airframes and continue to order after numerous Pakistani and Chinese presentations re: the JF-17 on the parameters of life cycle cost, purchase price, customisation and integration?

dont compare Jordan with pakistan ASR. the RJAF fly less so they will be ok with high clocked airframes while PAF will be not. your assumption of RJAF rejection of JF-17s over 2nd hand F-16s is wrong. PAF has just recently inducted 2nd hand F-16s and plans for more in the future but i see no reduction in JF-17 orders or total rejection over F-16. Jordan is still very much interested in jF-17s and so are most of arab states.

The JF-17 and J-10 cannot be "plugged in" to AEW assets the PAF has and even when a datalink solution is found it will lag behind full Link 16 Block III standards found now on Western designs. Lack of bandwith means you might as well use GCI when up against your particular peer adversary.

well thats your assumstion but PAF is working on block 2 JF-17 and FC-20 for data linking Erieye as well as ZDK-03.

#1 Despite several instances of fratricide the IAF is improving Information dominance across the board in particular the linkage between the MIG-21BM and MKI assets via Elbit M-II for "sharing" targeting information for BVR. In other words you have a "swarm" of expendable Bisons capable of AA-12 BVR shots linked to Phalcon AWACS, Green Pine Search Radar and MKI shooters ALL able to "see" deep within Pakistan-indeed as far as the Western Iranian border/Iraq.

their is no dough of IAF superiority over PAF in BVR scenario but that gap will be enormously shortened in 1-2 years, but i am sure PAF still today has counter measures.

now thats what i call being ignorant. Iraq does not even border pakistan let alone Phalcon detecting as far as 600km+ in PAK western borders. dont for get the long range SAM factors.

#3 The induction of about a hundred-two hundred MRCA (I bet Super Hornet) able to be directly plugged into that grid and you think the J-10 and JF-17 are the answer?

no FC-20 and JF-17 are not the answer to 4.5 generation MRCA as a matter of fact even F-16s are not the answer to super hornets but it will work for PAF.

 

[Jliu]

like i said. we dont even know PAF J-10 variant but from various source it is suppose to have European avionics and possibly radar with some structural improvements. the technical detail still remains classified so you shouldn’t jump to conclusion that FC-20 sucks simply because its chinese made. i am only going to stick to PAF ACM words that FC-20 will be a more advance fighter then current J-10and F-16 block 52.

The operative words here you have used are "supposed" and "possibly". I'll allow others to draw their own conclusions.

dont compare Jordan with pakistan ASR. the RJAF fly less so they will be ok with high clocked airframes while PAF will be not. your assumption of RJAF rejection of JF-17s over 2nd hand F-16s is wrong. PAF has just recently inducted 2nd hand F-16s and plans for more in the future but i see no reduction in JF-17 orders or total rejection over F-16. Jordan is still very much interested in jF-17s and so are most of arab states.

It has nothing to do with "high clocked airframes" if you've bothered to read my last post. MLU = factory remanufacture standard despite not actually in many cases delvered to the factory. The RJAF capability wise I can state is second only to the Israelis in the Greater Mid East and believe me they think the JF-17 is slightly "obsolete" and I'm putting it nicely. Jordan still interested in the JF-17? You're talking to an adviser to the RJAF here Why would any of the other Arab states be interested in a Chinese made third gen fighter approaching block obsolescence if they have the cash to buy Western? Contrary to your opinion I am not stating Western countries are the "best" or anything like that. I'm saying when it comes to procurement countries with cash to burn buy Western hardware because it works. Simple as that. Even the Indians with the MKI have Western avionics with an Israeli 'addition' to the much vaunted Bars radar.

well thats your assumstion but PAF is working on block 2 JF-17 and FC-20 for data linking Erieye as well as ZDK-03.

My assumption is right. ZDK-03? You mean the Chinese AWACS peoject? Do you know the performance of the Balance Beam rotardome? IOC? All the parameters re: any aircraft project I've stated in my last post?

their is no dough of IAF superiority over PAF in BVR scenario but that gap will be enormously shortened in 1-2 years, but i am sure PAF still today has counter measures.

Well I hope they do.

now thats what i call being ignorant. Iraq does not even border pakistan let alone Phalcon detecting as far as 600km+ in PAK western borders. dont for get the long range SAM factors.

I study this for a living. What do you do? Read Carefully. I stated the overall sit. awareness range of the Indian system approximates that range; in other words the system is known to cover large parts of Iran. A system is not a piece of hardware. It fuses information and features multiple assets linked-like the Green Pine radar.

What about the LR SAMs? Whose LR SAM networks? Neither Pakistan nor Iran have these.

no FC-20 and JF-17 are not the answer to 4.5 generation MRCA as a matter of fact even F-16s are not the answer to super hornets but it will work for PAF.

Again read what I've written in my previous post. With the JF-17 and/or Chinese AWACS if and when it arrives in effect you'll be facing a superior Israeli sourced 'swarm' with an inferior Chinese sourced 'swarm', numbers ceteris paribus when in reality they are not. In other words you'll be using a Subaru Impreza WRX to race a Gallardo if such a crude analogy suffices.

Since cost is such an issue for the PAF why is the J-10 being pursued? Increased infrastructure/TRADOC costs, maintenance and supply chain costs and vulnerabilities. Planes don't just come with 8x AAM and a pilot. Get that into your head. They come with 10+ support personnel, fuel trucks, controllers, avionics techs, ordanance handlers that eat up cash (personnel costs). That isn't an issue for the Indians but it is critical for the PAF.

 

[ejaz007]

I think the PAF has already made up its mind regarding its options for the future. This is the way I see PAF in the near future after 2010.

JF17, F-16, FC-20, ROSE upgraded Mirages and some F-7s.

This is what they have come up at the moment taking into account all constraints especially financial. In case the financial situation improves say around 2010 they might replace Mirage and F-7 with some european fighter.

We must also remember that these type of projects don't start over night and take time and money to complete. At the moment some of the most costliest projects of PAF are going on namely JF-17, F-16, FC-20 and Erieye. Untill at least two to three of these are completed they wont go for another one simply because of financial reasons.