PAF's possible answer to MRCA

[sohailbutt]

Guys this is first post here.

Sohail as you said pakistan will always keep american fighters in its inventory then it means they are always suseptible to american senctions isn't it?

When you talk about J-XX you accept that you dont have an idea about avionics package. But can you please give the timeframe when it is expected to be in air.
As even -35 will be operational by first batch of MRCA arrives, so realistically speaking J-XX might take on skies probably around 2015, then testing the bird, validating configurations and finally induction will take lot of time.

And when did french said they are going ahead with F-35?

So I think pakistan should worry about MRCA. As it can tilt the balance of forces in the region quite dramatically.

Ur first post shuld be n introduction of urself that is a rule on this forum, then u start writin wut u want to write. happy to have u here, welcome to .

Sanctions, now US has seen wut is the effect of sanctions on us, they sanctioned us we got JF-17, wish they sanction us again, n see wut happens then, this time it is a win-win situation for Pakistan, War on terrorism (WOT), without Pakistan's help Americans rnt goin to go anywhere on their WOT. so u take this santions out of the figure, we r not afraid of sanctions anymore!!!

Well, when i talk abut J-XX, i speculate abut its avionics, that they wuld not be any better then the present 5th generation fighters, i think u raised this point that i dont know abut it's avionics, n yes i dont know, better u tell me wut avionics will it have.

n i m not into Chinese aviation industry that i can tell u when it is goin to make its first appearance.

my mistake abut French, i accept that.

IAF has always been stronger than PAF, comin on to ur tiltin of the power thing in India's favor, don't u think that at the present time IAF is way stronger then PAf, with all it Mixed Russian, French, British fleet of fighters, when i read this point in ur post:

"So I think pakistan should worry about MRCA. As it can tilt the balance of forces in the region quite dramatically"

wut do u want us to do, u want us to follow u in the arms race that India has started?????

well, we r not that stupid to follow u in ur arms race (like ur dear friend Russia did follow US arms race, look wut happened to them), tell me wut is the use of buyin military hardware when u r not goin to war with anyone in the near future, n my friend India cannot scare $hit out of anyone now, cause now it is sorrounded by Nuclear powers, any misadventure by India like in the past this time it will have to pay a very very heavy price!!!!

heared of nukes!!!!!

this is not 1900's that u spend billions on hardware, to try to make ur presence felt in the region!!!!

try to take those $25 billion that u spend yearly on military hardware n feed ur 300 million people who live on less that a $1 a day, if not that then use the money else where. India has started an arms race in the region makin it more dangerous so u shuld naturally expect other nation's to keep a minimum deterance to defend themselves n that is wut Pakistan is doin, n will always do even when u order MRCA.

n 1 thing, Pakistani's r brave souls, they would give their lives to defend Pakistan, why do u think India couldnot get Pakistan bak even after fightin 3 wars??? its because u lack the courage to conquer n we have the will n courage to defend our motherland.

WE ARE NOT WORRIED ABUT UR MRCA, PERIOD!!!

 

[nitesh]

Ur first post shuld be n introduction of urself that is a rule on this forum, then u start writin wut u want to write. happy to have u here, welcome to .

I am sorry for this mistake, Nitesh jain from bangalore India working as a telecom consultant. Done B.E. in computer science and pursuing MBA

Sanctions, now US has seen wut is the effect of sanctions on us, they sanctioned us we got JF-17, wish they sanction us again, n see wut happens then, this time it is a win-win situation for Pakistan, War on terrorism (WOT), without Pakistan's help Americans rnt goin to go anywhere on their WOT. so u take this santions out of the figure, we r not afraid of sanctions anymore!!!

With respect to your previous post you said you seems to say that JF will take time to mature as a platform so seems you are trying to say you are happy with techs tht are not mature then........

Well, when i talk abut J-XX, i speculate abut its avionics, that they wuld not be any better then the present 5th generation fighters, i think u raised this point that i dont know abut it's avionics, n yes i dont know, better u tell me wut avionics will it have.

As you are asking me to answer really saying even i have no idea, but heard a lot of chinese build quality, but they are making huge technology strides and it will be world class

n i m not into Chinese aviation industry that i can tell u when it is goin to make its first appearance.

So lets put this plane out of equation, there is no point in bragging about a plane about which we dont have any idea

my mistake abut French, i accept that.

No problems

IAF has always been stronger than PAF, comin on to ur tiltin of the power thing in India's favor, don't u think that at the present time IAF is way stronger then PAf, with all it Mixed Russian, French, British fleet of fighters, when i read this point in ur post:

Well I agree to you, yes IAF is stronger

"So I think pakistan should worry about MRCA. As it can tilt the balance of forces in the region quite dramatically"

wut do u want us to do, u want us to follow u in the arms race that India has started?????

Well to be honest I feel MRCA is china centric, but in case of war the MRCA will seriously affect pak capability of launching nukes from air.

well, we r not that stupid to follow u in ur arms race (like ur dear friend Russia did follow US arms race, look wut happened to them), tell me wut is the use of buyin military hardware when u r not goin to war with anyone in the near future, n my friend India cannot scare $hit out of anyone now, cause now it is sorrounded by Nuclear powers, any misadventure by India like in the past this time it will have to pay a very very heavy price!!!!

Well soviet disintegration was more to do with there defunct ideology.

heared of nukes!!!!!

Pray to god we should never use it.

this is not 1900's that u spend billions on hardware, to try to make ur presence felt in the region!!!!

Whether it is 1900 or 2500 countries need to spend on hardware, there is no alternative for this

try to take those $25 billion that u spend yearly on military hardware n feed ur 300 million people who live on less that a $1 a day, if not that then use the money else where. India has started an arms race in the region makin it more dangerous so u shuld naturally expect other nation's to keep a minimum deterance to defend themselves n that is wut Pakistan is doin, n will always do even when u order MRCA.

Well as per various reports I see, india's per capita income is still higher then pakistan, as well as there economy is much bigger then pakistan. So the conditions are improving at rapid pace in India

n 1 thing, Pakistani's r brave souls, they would give their lives to defend Pakistan, why do u think India couldnot get Pakistan bak even after fightin 3 wars??? its because u lack the courage to conquer n we have the will n courage to defend our motherland.

WE ARE NOT WORRIED ABUT UR MRCA, PERIOD!!!

Well i agree that pakistanis are brave souls, but you should note pakistan got divided in to two countries isn't it.

Anyway, just chill

 

[sohailbutt]

I am sorry for this mistake, Nitesh jain from bangalore India working as a telecom consultant. Done B.E. in computer science and pursuing MBA

With respect to your previous post you said you seems to say that JF will take time to mature as a platform so seems you are trying to say you are happy with techs tht are not mature then........

As you are asking me to answer really saying even i have no idea, but heard a lot of chinese build quality, but they are making huge technology strides and it will be world class

So lets put this plane out of equation, there is no point in bragging about a plane about which we dont have any idea

No problems

Well I agree to you, yes IAF is stronger

"So I think pakistan should worry about MRCA. As it can tilt the balance of forces in the region quite dramatically"

wut do u want us to do, u want us to follow u in the arms race that India has started?????

Well to be honest I feel MRCA is china centric, but in case of war the MRCA will seriously affect pak capability of launching nukes from air.

Well soviet disintegration was more to do with there defunct ideology.

Pray to god we should never use it.

Whether it is 1900 or 2500 countries need to spend on hardware, there is no alternative for this

Well as per various reports I see, india's per capita income is still higher then pakistan, as well as there economy is much bigger then pakistan. So the conditions are improving at rapid pace in India

Well i agree that pakistanis are brave souls, but you should note pakistan got divided in to two countries isn't it.

Anyway, just chill

ur rightin style reminds me of JEFF, he also has the habbit of makin hundred of pieces of a post n then writin reply to each one of them

i wuld like to reply to only one point in the post:

"Well i agree that pakistanis are brave souls, but you should note pakistan got divided in to two countries isn't it"

we got divided not by Indian pressure, we were divided because of Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, who gave the orders to surrender without even consulting President Zia-ul-Haq at the time, Muslims dont surrender, n that guy made our generals surrender, that is why we were divided, so u could see that after Bangladesh was formed he was hanged, in Punjab, the orders for which were given out by Genral Zia.

well if u ask me, really i m very happy that Bangladesh is not a part of Pakistan.

 

[nitesh]

End of the day result matters, now you can be happy or not happy. Now lets get back to topic.

In my feeling MRCA tender is going to not only bring lot of hardware but will make a lot of political statement also. I feel like Rafale is going to be the winner cos france is having a good relationship with India and rafale can also be customized for naval role, hence it will reduce the overall cost.

What's your view?

 

[sohailbutt]

End of the day result matters, now you can be happy or not happy. Now lets get back to topic.

In my feeling MRCA tender is going to not only bring lot of hardware but will make a lot of political statement also. I feel like Rafale is going to be the winner cos france is having a good relationship with India and rafale can also be customized for naval role, hence it will reduce the overall cost.

What's your view?

k, no probs with me, anyway, lets talk abut MRCA, as u said Rafale may win the contract, i seriously believe Indians have put themselves in a big trouble, this MRCA decision is goin to be a political one now, well Rafale is a proven n a very capable platform n its very reliable as well, but the problem my friend is not in buyin a car, it is in maintain the car, IAF has some real problem in maintainin its fighter fleet as i come to know by readin senior member posts regardin IAF fighters.

well, if u see Americans they r not very reliable, in our case u can see PAF history as to wut they did with us US has already started to show IAF wut it is, they have just blocked India's air force one plane to be delievered next month n they r demandin changes in the terms of contract, this shows that whatever the tech they have offer to u, u cannot use them against their will, for e.g. take UAE airforce, they have got Block 60 F-16's but they cannot fly them until they get the codes from US, so in ur case i dont think IAF can take this kind of restriction, so take out both the American fighters out of equation. US is very clever they r actually goin t trick u if u go their way, coz they r goin to close the production line of F-16's when their r no more orders, n the F-18's if u get in MRCA, by 2013, boeing will already have the 5th Generation F-18 in desing/production stage as they said already. so my friend Americans dont stand a chance in MRCA. even they r not offering u TOT on very critical parts of the fighter, i heared somewhere they r ready to offer 60% TOT on Superhornet, very clever Americans.

Well, French weapons r for countries who want to be independant of US, so i think rafale has great chances of winning.

Gripen doesn't stand a chance, better get ur LCA in air rather goin for this fighter.

Typhoon is too expensive u cannot get 126 fighters for $10 billion, just look at the Royal Saudi airforce they bought 72 Eurofighters in $10 billion. so it is impossible really for the typhoon to be the winner, if IAF goes for the typhoon then with weapons, training, spares etc the cost of this tender will easily exceed $15 billion, n this is a big big amount.

Mig-35 was solely produced for IAF, but i can't say anythin abut this platform cause i dont know Russian fighters well enough. Russians r givin hard time to Indians so i dont see this aircraft havin any chances of winnin MRCA.

I THINK RAFALE IS WINNER!!!

one more thin US has not offered it's F-35's to India, so no chances of India buyin F-16's. cause it offered UAE F-35's, they can now buy F-35's as they have now bought 80 Block 60's (these planes would fulfill UAE's requirement until F-35's arrive in UAE airforce). So u see US plays a very dirty game, n that is wut it is doin with India right now!!!

u dont need Rafale for Naval role u have ur Mig-29's n Jaguars for that i think.

 

[z9-ec]

Well as per various reports I see, india's per capita income is still higher then pakistan, as well as there economy is much bigger then pakistan. So the conditions are improving at rapid pace in India.

Per capita 2007(nominal current values)

Pakistan - 916.693 USD

India - 826.871 USD

IMF

World Bank 2006 estimates

India per capita
Nominal - $820
PPP - $2460

Pakistan per capita
Nominal - $800
PPP - $2410

according to the reports above it is incorrect to assume India has a better per capita than Pakistan.

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

can all of u guys, just grow up? Please?

this is not a pakistan vs. india forum. if our countries can't have peace, please don't ruin it for us.

 

[nitesh]

One more good point about rafale is that they are evolution from mirage so the logistics should not be much of a problem for IAF, also typhoon by design is air dominance fighter, for that IAF has already decided on SU-30MKI.

 

[ejaz007]

All fighters competing are good in their own ways. It seems Gripen has been neglected to some extent while considering the winner. Sweeden never has won a big order like this one so they might be willing to offer more technology transfer than others.
Keep your fingers crossed.

 

[ejaz007]

Have a look at the bid submitted by gripen. By seeing the size of the documents one can safely say it shall be another one year atleast before leading contender emerges. Similar size bids have been submitted by other competitors.

Gripen - The wings of your nation - Gripen IN next generation fighter for India - The Independent Choice

 

[nitesh]

Your point is correct but Gripen is very similar in terms responsibilities it can cater to LCA Tejas, also it will add to the logistical burden of IAF, anyway whosoever wins the contract should comply to 50% of T0T . It seems IAF wants to standerdize in three caterories

Heavy Air dominance fighter: SU-30MKI
MRCA for various roles: Current inventory of Mirage, Mig29, + newly inducted MRCA winner, also once Mirage and Mig29 retires MRCA will be sole operator in this space
So I feel Rafale and Mig35 fits the bill perfectly as the not only reduce the logistical problems but also help in standardizing the weapon mix.

Light fighters/Interceptors: LCA to make the numbers with the help of MRCA winner in terms of Engine tech etc.

The heavy category will be made stronger by PAK-FA which seems like get inducted by 2020-25 in-spite of the time lines given by media as 2015 or so.

With the ToT offered India will commence development of MCA that will fill in the gaps.


Correct me if I am wrong pls.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Your point is correct but Gripen is very similar in terms responsibilities it can cater to LCA Tejas, also it will add to the logistical burden of IAF, anyway whosoever wins the contract should comply to 50% of T0T . It seems IAF wants to standerdize in three caterories

Heavy Air dominance fighter: SU-30MKI
MRCA for various roles: Current inventory of Mirage, Mig29, + newly inducted MRCA winner, also once Mirage and Mig29 retires MRCA will be sole operator in this space
So I feel Rafale and Mig35 fits the bill perfectly as the not only reduce the logistical problems but also help in standardizing the weapon mix.

dude come on... Gripen is a living reality while LCA is a dream and yet to prove itself around 2025..
EF-2000 or Rafael are out of the picture because its simply too expensive and KSA paid $40+ billion for its just 72!

this is how i see IAF future.
SU-30MKI
MRCA -Mig-35/Gripen
if LCA fails then expect same Mig-35/Gripen combo
upgraded Mig-29 and Mirage-2000-5-9
PAK FA

Can some one tell me if PAf goes for russian plane what kind of aircrdt can paf gets

i highly dough PAF will acquire any new MRCA from Russia in 2010-2020 time frame... though if doors are opened i think PAF must take full advantage of updating non western fleet and improve its defence field...

 

[Malang]

dude come on... Gripen is a living reality while LCA is a dream and yet to prove itself around 2025..

Have you seen LCA flying and firing missiles??
LCA no doubt will need to pass a whole gamut of tests before it is inducted but it will be inducted of which there is no doubt at the moment..

EF-2000 or Rafael are out of the picture because its simply too expensive and KSA paid $40+ billion for its just 72!

No and No..

If Typhoon and Rafale are participating that means their craft are within price limits else why would they enter when the price range is well known in advance..

Saudis paid ~8-9bn$ for 72 craft..
Bloomberg.com: Europe

 

[Jliu]

It's quite apparent to the more informed members of this forum that due to budgetary constraints and force structure the PAF's answer to an IAF MRCA is a two tiered system of three LCAs w/organic ADS. I believe that is all there is to say on this subject and the discussion should move to the effectiveness of such a system. Hardware by itself does not confer capability at any stage in the combat cycle.

 

[Luftwaffe]

Dear Friends & Foes....
China is going to replace half of its J-7/Q-5 with F-7MF i suspect so..which has even lower cost than FC-1/JF-17 this is what i believe. I don't know if some of you agree with me or not..I still have question why is china spending weirdly on so many projects like toally new Q-5s, J-8, F-7MF, Flying Lepo. I think china should stop spending more and ditch this almost all Q-5/J-8 upgradations keep lower high tech fleets and replace maximum with J-10/JF-17.
We all know JF-17 is far better than Q-5, J-7 almost all variants (not talking about F-7MF don't know much about it). To me project like Flying lepos is totally waste of money all of that money should have been diverted to the second generation Super J-10 if the concept is there at all or in more production of J-10A, and its indigenous engine. Again I think if chinese divert its spending from Q-5/J-7/J-8/Flying lepos to only J-10 and JF-17(fc-1) It will save hell lot of money for them and they will have 2 high tech planes that will perform better than those 30 years old Planes. What do you guys think isn't it weird for our friend china to spend like that what are they experimenting with??