PAF's possible answer to MRCA

[Neo]

Great post Mark, couldn't agree more.

Imho possible answer to IAF MRCA is not another western design but the FC-20 which will be complimented by 36-40 J-10C and another 250+ FC-17's.

FC-20 is more than a concept, it will have a number of latest western avionics and weapons combined with co-develloped technology of our own.
More and more advanced weapons and avionics are available to us than ever before and new markets (e.g. South Africa) are opening up and selling full ToT ranging from radars to misslies and cockpits. FC-20 will have them all including AESA and W/BVRAAM's, JDAM's, HMS etc.

Compare FC-1 to JF-17 and you'll see two different aircrafts, same will be applied on FC-20 to make it a true gen 4.5 MRCA.

Reducing the number of platforms and diversifying the combat capability is what PAF is after. Whereas some countries are trying to re-invent the wheel we're progressing with JV's and buying ToT to gain self reliance, smart move for a country with limited resources.

 

[HAIDER]

Energon ....don't like speculations ...lolzzz..

 

[Quwa]

Neo,

I think the biggest hint revolves around PAC and the Pakistani Military's wish to achieve as much in-house production. There would be little point to raise the new aircraft manufacturing facilities just to produce until 2015 and maybe a few for export later on. For up to the next 10 years I suspect PAF will induct JF-17s with successive avionics, ECM/EW, radar & weapon-system upgrades.

However for production from 2020 the PAF will be looking for a more advanced fighter taking into account not only MRCA but also the emerging 5th generation threats. At the very least I suspect this aircraft to be a license production if not a new joint-consortium development. I am still willing to put money on the development of a 5th generation fighter being developed with assistance from China. IMO the 4.5 generation issue will be settled with adding FC-20 until the "JFX" is ready.

 

[BATMAN]

it would be strange that PAF would just limit itself to 18 C/D.

That is exactly why, I deducted 10% percent marks of PAF, especially when we consider that IAF is dying to have war winner fighters like F-16.
Clipping of PAF order could be very much out of political reasons, because we only heard this news from new govt.

F-16 is meant to be dog fighter that is why F-18 will lose all dog fights if pitted against F-16. (Considering all other elements constant).

If thunder gets a western engine than it's fuselage will be slimmer and its hud will stand out more or less same as F-16.
In three years time thunder will be compareable to block50 falcons and in three times IAF pilots can not even come close to the experience of PAf with falcons.

In my opinion it really does not matter what Indians get as their MRCA because whatever they will get will not be happening today or this year.

This also true that US is willing to give Indians a lot more than Pakistan, simply because Indians are in better position to negotiate because of China, Russia and Iran factor.
We have been watching this since Inidans voted against Iran and distant it self from ruskies in fovor of American patronage. Till very recent Tibet riots.
Recent Iran row is again a negotiating technique to squeeze Americans to max.

Well, what Americans did not agreed so far is T.o.T of American engines, which India is striving to get the most at any cost.

 

[Quwa]

BATMAN,

That isn't the issue...the problem is that even though F-16C/D & A/B are related, there is enough of a difference between them that requires new infrastructure. It is expensive and time consuming to set up new infrastructure for a fighter...it is one thing to expand it, but to start requires extensive work and money. Regardless of how good JF-17 becomes, the fact that PAF has infrastructure for another good fighter to make some use of in the long-run. The F-16A/Bs might be gone by 2030, but the C/Ds will be around for a while longer.

An interesting thing to note is the airframe commonality between the Block-52+ and Block-60/IN airframes. Although LM offered F-16IN to IAF in response to their RFP, the reality remains that PAF is in a better technical position to induct F-16IN than IAF. Even if PAF cut the 18 optional Block-52+, what would stop it from procuring a number of enhanced Block-52+ variants similar to F-16IN? I think 4.5 generation capabilities will be covered by FC-20 and possibly advanced F-16s like Block-60 until PAC is replaces JF-17 production in like 2025.

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

that does make a point, F-16 C/D models are totally different from our current inventory. we would need to set up the infrastructure to absorb the aircraft efficiently.

it wouldn't make sense if PAF stuck with only 18. it's anyone's guess that PAF will purchase more in the future, most likely with the new SABR AESA radar.

 

[Quwa]

that does make a point, F-16 C/D models are totally different from our current inventory. we would need to set up the infrastructure to absorb the aircraft efficiently.

it wouldn't make sense if PAF stuck with only 18. it's anyone's guess that PAF will purchase more in the future, most likely with the new SABR AESA radar.

Exactly...also if people intend to include Rafale and Eurofighter as possible options, then they may as well add Gripen NG. Of the three fighters, the Gripen NG suits the PAF's operations doctrine better. Though it won't be ready before 2015, I say lease 40 FC-20 from China and keep with the 18 Block-52+ until Gripen NG can replace them.

Standardize on Gripen NG as a 4.5 generation fighter for some 150 aircraft and buy it with local manufacturing. Just switch the engine to an enhanced SNECMA M88 and use private commercial lines for critical American parts. Begin producing the Gripen NG at PAC Kamra from 2020-2025.

 

[sodocpkgj]

id say forget about more f 16s and j10s+ eurofighter and gripens and start working on economy and strebgthen it. could take at least 5 years.

 

[sohailbutt]

id say forget about more f 16s and j10s+ eurofighter and gripens and start working on economy and strebgthen it. could take at least 5 years.

Please avoid writin these kinds of posts, u tell our rival to stop buyin weapons then we will stop buyin weapons, we dont buy weapons to scare the **** out of anyone, we buy them as a minimum deterant to keep india away from us, as far our economy is concerned im pretty happy with the growth of the economy in the past 10 years, n im pretty sure that spendin $4.5 billion annually to keep our defence personal ready to fight is not a big amount compared to our adversory who spends $25 billion anually.

its like my neighbour is buyin guns without showin his intention as to why it is buyin, that worries me n even i start to buy weapons, get my point!!!!!!!

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

Very visionary approach .... MARK!

I agree with you but it would have been better if PAF could get atleast 2 Squadrons of EF or Rafale ..... Just to take the PAF in 2015+ without being concerned about IAF plans and procurements.

In the meanwhile they can enhance the JF-17. J-10 can become a 4.5+ jet also within this time frame.

 

[sodocpkgj]

i dont think i have mentioned jf -17thunder above.
i m talkin about more f 16s and j 10s

 

[sohailbutt]

My remainin analysis on MRCA, startin with the 2 single engine fighters up in the race in MRCA, F-16IN & Gripen.

F-16IN & Gripen.

Startin with F-16IN, as far as i know this plane is being offered with the latest version after Block-60 of UAE, Lockheed says that it has quite advanced capabilities compared to Block 60's and 52's, I really doubt, as far as i have seen in the new block 70 there would only be a new engine thats it, not a big deal, india has always been reluctant in the past 40 years to buy F-16's cause it knows that PAF operates it so with new avionics i dont think IAF will get a chance to withstand PAF's F-16 cause our pilots have 2 decades of experience with this plane, NO WAY INDIA IS GOIN TO GO THIS WAY!!!

The biggest drawbak is this plane is now almost 40 years old it was introduced way back in the 70's n now it is goin to be replaced by F-35's, US and many other airforces who operate this aircraft will replace it with F-35's. So no use of buyin F-16's when their production line is goin to be shut when their r no more orders.

Even if IAF goes for these planes the best answer which i can think of in my mind is PAF shuld not get worried with this purchase, they shuld keep on improving their JF-17's and making them in large numbers, get the F-16's which it is goin to get, possibly equip half of them with SABR AESA (also get an AESA for the next batches of JF-17's), also get METEOR or AIM 120-D's to get the first shot at the opponent in case of war and equip JF-17's with these goodies n see wut happens

Now comin to Gripen.

Well by the time gripen comes out with its goodies in 2015 (its technologies by that time would be outdated), our JF-17 would have matured enough to match or even possibly exceed it, wut i wuld suggest in this case is that PAF stick to JF-17's n take their numbers to 250 possibly, equip them with AESA, AIM 120-C, AIM-9L, also install different types of targetting pods on it n this is wut will be best for PAF n the most cost effective n 200% reliable for PAF, n see wut happens, so i would not worry if IAF goes for gripen, which i highly doubt they will

Comin to Rafale, Eurofighter.

Well, these r very good fighters, Rafale is a proven fighter n all rounder where as Eurofighter has to prove itself a bit more n show the world wut it is capable of, both these aircrafts r 4.5 generation aircraft, if IAF purchases any of the 2 aircraft, in my view wut PAF's possible response shuld be keep with the Block 52's which it is procuring possibly with SABR AESA's, JF-17's with AESA, J-10 with AESA n a different kind of targettin pod, n in 2015 issue n RFP for F-35's by that time we would have more money to get this 5th generation plane, in my view 4 squadrons would be enough if ordered in 2016 may arrive by 2020, this plane can seriously help PAF to further improve its JF-17 n can also be used to improve other aircraft which PAF may also be think of procurin like J-XX, it can also be used to make J-10 a 5th generation fighter possibly.

Now the fighter remaining is Mig-35.

Well, guys i cant say anythin abut this fighter cause i dont know this plane quite well like others so wuld not comment abut this fighter.

Concluding my analysis wut ever is the outcome of MRCA, in short this is wut PAF shuld do in my view:

Get all it's F-16's to Block 52 level(100 of them), with conformal fuel tanks, targettin pods, SABR AESA.
Get all 250 JF-17's with an AESA, a smoke free engine, which also doesnot give a blue flame at night time which can easily be seen by the enemy (Please do some changing in the tail of JF-17, i dont know why but i donot find it quite good as the F-16's, i like the fighter but i really don't like it's tail).
Get J-10's with n AESA possibly conformal fuel tanks like the ones on f-16's possible, equip it with some kind of pod for EW or somethin else.
After 2015 order F-35's, 4 squadrons, PAF wuld be the first Airforce in South East Asia to fly this bird, India will not buy it cause it will have lots of different planes like MRCA, it Su-30's, upgraded Mig-29's n Jaguars etc.
Equip all these babies with BVRAAM like Meteor n AIM-120D's, also AIM-120C's n AIM-9L, etc.

That's all wut i think, well i dont know how u guys found this analysis, but anyway i said wut i think n welcome wut others think

n thank u all especially the senior members for commentin on this topic

 

[ejaz007]

After going through different articles and threads and whatever information I have it is difficult to say which fighter shall be selected. First of all I doubt the fighter selected shall enter IAF by 2011-12 deadline. Its year 2008 and only RFP's have been received. Another year shall be spent analyzing them and then proper negotiations shall commence with shortlisted company. Add another year to finalize the deal and other formalities. So perhaps in year 2010 contract shall be awarded. So one should not expect the fighter to enter IAF by 2011-12. Perhaps 2013-14 would be better date.
Interestingly by that time most of the fighters in line for the competitions would have gone through upgrades and modernization. Take for example Grippen, already a next generation Grippen has been unveiled. In simple terms who ever wins IAF contract shall not be suppllying a most modern fighter but rather a second most modern fighter. The same is the case with Super Hornet. There are already plans to manufacture a better model of this plane.
PAF shall also have around 4-5 years time to improve its JF-17 and induct J-10.
My personal view is that best contender at the moment is Mig-35. What ever one says additions of a new fighter system is always difficult especially with the associated spares and technical knowledge issues arise and at time are difficult to address. I highly doubt USA shall allow manufacture of such sophisticated equipment as AESA radars in India. Assemblying or installing is one thing but manufacture an entirely different thing.

 

[JEFF]

Jeff:

1. Whats your source for the US agreeing allow ToT on the AESA vs just allowing assembly, if that?

I am bit apologetic over here as I got little awry over here, as Boeing is very keen in allowing the TOT of AESA APG-79 Radar but final say is only upto the US Congress.

2. Also, is Boeing currently producing critical parts for the F-18 in India, or has it merely inked MoU's to do so if and when the contract gets landed?

here is the link for above request. I would even ready to provide more such link on insistance.

http://www.idrw.org/2008/04/28/boeing_to_outsource_f18_components_to_india.html

3. The Su30's are also license manufactured in India (the same option being suggested by the US from what I know) and they are grounded due to lack of spares from Russia,

Pls provide me the source where it says they are being grounded, as far as I know only few have been grounded only on account of their Tyre problem and not about their spares. I guess tyre problem isn't that grave technically as compared to spare parts problem.

how is the F-18 License manufacture going to be different?

This is exactly where clauses of the MRCA deal are so strigent and hence it is taking lots of time. Morever I failed to understand why are you interlinking the F-18 liceance production with Russian way of licence production.

4. Turkey has also been producing the F-16 under license, and even now imports critical systems from the US for assembly.

Turkey may have a different aviation objective as compared to India. India want a learning through the liceance production like AESA.

Just looking for valid links that India will actually get enough tech transfer to manufacture every critical component (especially AESA) of the F-18, rather than just assemble.

As I have mentioned above alongwith link, it is clearly mentioned that Boeing has already inked a deal with India's Private enterprise to produce critical components irrespective of MRCA deal, and regarding AESA, as Boeing is quite keen upon it to allow TOT of the same but last decision is upto the US congress, I guess they may be awaiting for Nucler deal to be inked successfully in a few month and if it get inked then I guess US would more or less going to allowed liceance production of AESA.

 

[EagleEyes]

Remind you ejaz that J-10 hasn't been selected. It is in the cards, with other cards. But seeing the potential of the J-10.. we might really see it in the PAF. Thats the current perspective of the PAF within.