PAF's possible answer to MRCA

[Areesh]

Honest question.. What is the status of the french deal? Too much of contradictory statements too and fro on this..

It's on and alive. Check the statement of ACM which is the most reliable for all of us.

 

[karan.1970]

It's on and alive. Check the statement of ACM which is the most reliable for all of us.

Can you save me some search and point me to it?

 

[SMC]

Their are some other delusions which are very famous among Bharatis like...

It is because Russia's relations with India that Russia is trying to create hurdles in the supply of RD-93 engines and because of this PAF's plans for JFT are shattered.

Another famous delusion is that because of Bharats influence France has canelled the avionics deal with PAF and this deal is completely dead.

One another famous delusion is that every AC that IAF has is is invincible and SU30 is better than all the AC's of the world except F-22 raptor.

Well what can we say? Delusions!!!

Yup, 4 rumours in particular stand out.

1. JF-17 deal with France is dead.
2. Russia ended supply of RD-93.
3. Pakistan can't use F-16s in a war with India.
4. Pakistan is getting F-16s on aid.

All proven to be false. In all cases, Indians counted their chickens before the hatched - and way too early to be more specific.

 

[SMC]

Can you save me some search and point me to it?

http://www.defence.pk/forums/918046-post23.html

The second part of the post to be more specific.

 

[karan.1970]

http://www.defence.pk/forums/918046-post23.html

The second part of the post to be more specific.

Is there any confirmation of this from the French quarters? Specifiacally since they didnt deny the 1st report..

 

[SMC]

If we're to believe what ACM said - and that is as good a source as you can get besides the French themselves - then the French told him that the deal is still on. French probably didn't deny it since it was a small rumour and no one asked them on it publicly.

 

[Donatello]

If we're to believe what ACM said - and that is as good a source as you can get besides the French themselves - then the French told him that the deal is still on. French probably didn't deny it since it was a small rumour and no one asked them on it publicly.

French would give India what it wants and Pakistan what it wants.

The thing is, if India needs French equipment, it doesn't need to black mail French into no giving Pakistan what it wants. If India wanted no French stuff,they wouldn't get it anyway. Hence, French want to play a balancing act, they don't care who gets more, India or Pakistan, as it's their corporation that benefits.

 

[karan.1970]

French would give India what it wants and Pakistan what it wants.

The thing is, if India needs French equipment, it doesn't need to black mail French into no giving Pakistan what it wants. If India wanted no French stuff,they wouldn't get it anyway. Hence, French want to play a balancing act, they don't care who gets more, India or Pakistan, as it's their corporation that benefits.

when is the deal expected to be finalized? Wasnt it supposed to be in the 1st half of 2010?

 

[mjnaushad]

Is there any confirmation of this from the French quarters? Specifiacally since they didnt deny the 1st report..

The fact is PAF is keeping it open but also delaying it.... If you know the current radar is smaller size of J10s radar and which was later improved more in JFT...Now few days back a report said J10s are being tested with AESA and trying to improve it further. So if J10s getting AESA same trick can be revised. Also Pakistan is keeping its Italian option open. PAF is keeping all the options open. We'll really know which radar is coming to JFT when the next batch start. Also possible that PAF is waiting for MRCA to end then make its move.

 

[MZUBAIR]

J-10B and JF-17Block II will be f9 to counter any MRCA AC.
First let them chose as its been more then 6 years the deal is started...

 

[fatman17]

J-10B and JF-17Block II will be f9 to counter any MRCA AC.
First let them chose as its been more then 6 years the deal is started...

not read many of the earlier posts, but my guess is that a 'combo' of F-16C/D's and F-20's with superior training and motivation would be a good start.

 

[mjnaushad]

I think we've discussed enough on this topic, We really don't know which Aircraft is going to win the tender and when. The real and meaningful discussion will start when they'll select the aircraft and we'll know exactly what we are going to deal with.

 

[kingdurgaking]

Honestly i dont understand how you are estimating PAF capabilities..
Lets take from old wars
During Wars especially in 1965 PAF managed to penetrate Indian Airspace and bomb most of the planes when they where on ground and they had some honest kills on Air.. but then the Air force was in same generation +- few advantages...

Now the situation is entirely different.. PAF cant penetrate Indian Air space like 1965 to bomb the planes as it is well networked with Russian,Indian,Israel sams.. Even if we take the honest kills now we have huge Fighters in the inventory especially in western command lets forget the south western command for time being..

by 2017

we will have
3 Squad of MKI 4.5 gen
2 Squad of MMRCA 4.5 gen
3 squad of Mig Bison 3.5 gen
2 Squad of Mig 21 3 gen
1 squad of Jaguar 3 gen
1 Squad or Mirages 2000 4 gen
1 squad of Mig 29 SMT 4 gen


and each squad cotains an average of 20 fighter in western front..
of which 80% are BVR capable and 70% can channel with AWACS now which provides good BMS view..

Where as PAF as per argument will have
80 F16 so far ordered 4.5 gen
150 JF 17 ordered so far 4 gen
36 J10 Possibly ordered so far 4.5 gen
180 F7 2-3 gen

(Above figures what you have ordered so far.... we are not taking into the account what you may order)

of which 60% BVR capable and 60% can channel with AWACS

In addition MKI can fly from Andaman to western border without landing any where in the middle. MKI can fire brahmos in couple of years which can take your Airbase at ease without entering your Airspace.. where as there is a probability in intercepting your cruise missiles fired from JF17 and J10..

PAF has only max of 30 bases ... where as indian Western command itself operate more than 20 air bases ... while SEAD operation are going to be very tough for PAF in comparison with IAF...


while we compare the technology gap that IAF posses in comparison with 1965,1971 war it is far more now .. Added to this, the Quantity in western front alone equating 3/4 th of your squad while we still posses South Western Command and IN squad which will equate your numbers..

Honestly on what opinion you are assuming that PAF has equated the capabilities?.. As far numbers i dont think it will equate plane to plane.. As IAF formation will be always MKI /Mig 29 + Mig 21 /Mig Bison + Mirage + Jaguar which will be very tedious to encounter as we dont know how many such formation will fly....

 

[mjnaushad]

..

Now the situation is entirely different.. PAF cant penetrate Indian Air space like 1965 to bomb the planes as it is well networked with Russian,Indian,Israel sams..

As one of the TT member in his post said that SAMs are the first causality of war...Specially after the new anti radiation missiles.

Even if we take the honest kills now we have huge Fighters in the inventory especially in western command lets forget the south western command for time being..

India always enjoyed teh numeric superiority. We ever denied that.

by 2017

we will have
3 Squad of MKI 4.5 gen
2 Squad of MMRCA 4.5 gen
3 squad of Mig Bison 3.5 gen
2 Squad of Mig 3 gen
1 squad of Jaguar 3 gen
1 Squad or Mirages 2000 4 gen
1 squad of Mig 29 SMT 4 gen



and each squad cotains an average of 20 fighter in western front..
of which 80% are BVR capable and 70% can channel with AWACS now which provides good BMS view..

Alrite...Lets for a min assume this is the list you'll have. and assuming that they are in complete awacs network with ground and all. Perfect data communication scenario. But thats how the future war are going to be buddy. Things wont be changed on other side too. And before attacking or defending we'll know how thing are going to be. the AWACS the fighter teh data link.

Where as PAF as per argument will have
80 F16 so far ordered 4.5 gen
150 JF 17 ordered so far 4 gen
36 J10 Possibly ordered so far 4.5 gen
180 F7 2-3 gen

(Above figures what you have ordered so far.... we are not taking into the account what you may order)

of which 60% BVR capable and 60% can channel with AWACS

Yup 80 F 16s ordered as in 2010 and you are talking about 2017 aren't you. 40 above for MLU and other block 52.

JFT are going at rate of 2 Per month or 24 p/a. so right now we have 1 squadron of JFT plus starting from 2010 we'll be having all of the 150 JFT operational in 2017.

JFT will be taking over old f7 and A5s so i dont think F7s will be operational or will see fight. Plus F7 is no where a 2 gen aircraft. I wished you'd use more brain before writing such thing.


So tell me the Aircrafts i mentioned above how are they 40 % NOT BVR and cannot channel with AWACS. F16s just attended Red Flag. JFT is BVR plus have data link capable. J10 do i need to talk about it too.

In addition MKI can fly from Andaman to western border without landing any where in the middle. MKI can fire brahmos in couple of years which can take your Airbase at ease without entering your Airspace.. where as there is a probability in intercepting your cruise missiles fired from JF17 and J10..

Going on cruise missile is another debate. Discussed thousand time. If i say anything here it wont be a AVIATION thread anymore. But just one thing. Every country have its own need. our subsonic missile with deep strike are enough to do teh job.

Plus the A2A refueling will enhance PAF capability to stay in air more without need of landing and refueling.

PAF has only max of 30 bases ... where as indian Western command itself operate more than 20 air bases ... while SEAD operation are going to be very tough for PAF in comparison with IAF...

Wasn't that how it was all the time.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Honestly i dont understand how you are estimating PAF capabilities..
Lets take from old wars
During Wars especially in 1965 PAF managed to penetrate Indian Airspace and bomb most of the planes when they where on ground and they had some honest kills on Air.. but then the Air force was in same generation +- few advantages...

Now the situation is entirely different.. PAF cant penetrate Indian Air space like 1965 to bomb the planes as it is well networked with Russian,Indian,Israel sams.. Even if we take the honest kills now we have huge Fighters in the inventory especially in western command lets forget the south western command for time being..

Watever pal... the bottom line is u still had more air crafts, more fire power and better Tech,..... u know the rest (wat happened to IAF)..

by 2017

we will have
3 Squad of MKI 4.5 gen
2 Squad of MMRCA 4.5 gen
3 squad of Mig Bison 3.5 gen
2 Squad of Mig 3 gen
1 squad of Jaguar 3 gen
1 Squad or Mirages 2000 4 gen
1 squad of Mig 29 SMT 4 gen

Ur mig 27s,mig 21s and jaguars are obsolete are going to be phased out..

2) MRCA i wont bet on it....

Where as PAF as per argument will have
80 F16 so far ordered 4.5 gen

16-18 more coming as well as the 30 or more embargoed ones.
It will be over a 100 at minimum( as of the near future).

150 JF 17 ordered so far 4 gen

JFT BLOCK II will be coming late next year.... the requirement or total planned JFTs are around 250+

36 J10 Possibly ordered so far 4.5 gen

All 36 will be present by 2014.... 150 rumoured and planned...still in 3 years u know how much more can be added to the inventory.

180 F7 2-3 gen

Genuis they are BVR capable, new air frames.customised.... also mirage ROSE will stay!

(Above figures what you have ordered so far.... we are not taking into the account what you may order)

of which 60% BVR capable and 60% can channel with AWACS

Count again.

In addition MKI can fly from Andaman to western border without landing any where in the middle. MKI can fire brahmos in couple of years which can take your Airbase at ease without entering your Airspace.. where as there is a probability in intercepting your cruise missiles fired from JF17 and J10..

Watever satisfies ur ego and fantasy.