PAF's possible answer to MRCA

[Super Falcon]

Boeing has decided to bid on Indias programs to purchase 22 combat helicopters and 15 heavy-lift helicopters.Proposals for the combat helicopters are due Sept. 22, and the deadline for the heavy-lift helicopters is the next day.

This is the second time India has issued a tender for attack helicopters. The first tender issued in May 2008 was scrapped in March by the government. Neither Bell Helicopter nor Boeing participated in that effort. Bell has said it will not participate in the new competition.

Meanwhile, the way is now clear for the implementation of the $2.1 billion contract for India to buy eight Boeing P-8I long-range maritime reconnaissance aircraft. The technical assistance agreement for the contract has now been worked out, according to Vivek Lall, head of Boeing Integrated Defense Systems in India.

We are looking forward to delivering them, Lall said.

The contract for eight P-8I aircraft was signed on Jan. 1. Following the recent visit of U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton here, the controversial defense technology end-use monitoring agreement between India and the U.S. has been finalized as well, making the going smoother.

The end-user monitoring (EUM) accord systematizes ad hoc arrangements for individual defense procurements from the U.S. entered into by previous governments. The agreement will make it easier to share important U.S. defense technology with India, Boeing said in a statement.

Beyond the immediate affect of allowing greater cooperation between the two sides, the EUM accord indicates a high level of trust and cooperation between the U.S. and India, according to Ron Somers, president of the U.S.-India Business Council.

Boeing says it also is keen to offer India the C-17, which can carry large equipment, supplies and troops directly to small airfields. The C-17 fits in well with Indias operational requirements, Lall says. The U.S. government received a request for information in 2008.

A senior Indian air force official was quoted recently saying that the aircraft had been chosen after a thorough study because of its range, ease of operation and capability to take off and land on short runways with heavy loads. The Indian air force is said to be looking at acquiring ten C-17s, initially through the U.S. governments Foreign Military Sales route

 

[Super Falcon]

Production of MiG-35 multirole fighters offered for sale to India cannot start before 2013 or 2014, a Russian aircraft maker said on Thursday.

Russia's MiG-35 Fulcrum-F, an export version of the MiG-29M OVT (Fulcrum F), is a highly maneuverable air superiority fighter, which won high acclaim during the Le Bourget air show in France last year.

"We have begun testing the MiG-35 fighter for the Indian tender," said Alexander Karezin, general director of the Sokol company based in Nizhny Novgorod.

Six major aircraft makers - Lockheed and Boeing from the United States, Russia's MiG, which is part of the UAC, France's Dassault, Sweden's Saab and the EADS consortium of British, German, Spanish and Italian companies - are in contention to win the $10 billion contract for 126 light fighters to be supplied to the Indian Air Force.

Sokol earlier said that the first two MiG-35 aircraft would be delivered to India in August for test flights prior to the award of the tender. In late 2009, Russia will conduct a series of flight tests with live firing for an Indian Air Force delegation at one of the testing grounds on the Russian territory.

The fighter is powered by RD-33 OVT thrust vectoring engines. The RD-33 OVT engines provide superior maneuverability and enhance the fighter's performance in close air engagements.

Moscow said if MiG-35 wins the tender, Russia is ready to transfer all key technology to India's Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. and provide assistance for the production of the aircraft in the country

 

[SBD-3]

Sorry bro i beg to differ. Fc-20 is not that much of a improvement that it deserves to be called high tech when Jf-17 is associated with low tech. We do not even know Fc-20's configuration and it would have been much better for PAF if FC-20 would have been inducted in same time frame as MKI and both would be a good match.
PAF is not repeating same old mistake of 90s. In fact PAF has ordered surplus amount of spares and not paying a single penny before these things are in their hands.
FC-20 could turn out to be a good MRCA but a big negative tag it carries is the fact that it will be almost a decade behind!

something is better than nothing

 

[Myth_buster_1]

something is better than nothing

We can have a lot better stuff, the world for pakistan does not end with china.

 

[hj786]

Sorry bro i beg to differ. Fc-20 is not that much of a improvement that it deserves to be called high tech when Jf-17 is associated with low tech.

All I can say is that Pakistan Air Force disagrees with you brother! They picked FC-20 over Rafale, Typhoon and Gripen, despite the Rafale being available with next to no worries about sanctions. Notice the PAF evaluated FC-20 alongside platforms such as Rafale and Gripen, not Mirage 2000 and F-16.

We do not even know Fc-20's configuration and it would have been much better for PAF if FC-20 would have been inducted in same time frame as MKI and both would be a good match.

We don't know the configuration of any of the PAF's fighters! We have a retired Group Captain (P.Shamim sahib) telling us they have South African/Pakistani MRAAMs operational, what makes you think you know anything about the PAF's most potent equipment? The PAF should induct new aeroplanes if and when they meet the requirements, not merely to respond to their adversary.

FC-20 could turn out to be a good MRCA but a big negative tag it carries is the fact that it will be almost a decade behind! We can have a lot better stuff

Better late that never. Not without money and threat of sanctions.

 

[Arsalan]

We can have a lot better stuff, the world for pakistan does not end with china.

it surely do not end there, i also understand your idea of not putting all eggs in one basket but it is better to keep them there rather then to throw half of them to every tom dick and harry!
the options that we can access other then J10 are the rafale and gripen, nothing else!
brother if you take a look at there specs and then compare there prices the decesion of PAF to go for FC20 is justified. anther added advantage with chines deals is the opportuinity to learn and modify the systems according to our wish and requirments. this do not come from any other supplier dear!
FC20 is a true 4.5 generation MRCA and stand in league of rafale, Gripen and Su30s. we must not dislike chines equipment just because they are jsut chines (questioning there reliability)

regards!

 

[ISRO2]

We can have a lot better stuff, the world for pakistan does not end with china.

Sir if i believe you then china has more money but why other countries not selling china much? China can buy them by power of money but major countries not selling china anything. Same way sir if pakistan has money it doesn't mean pakistan can buy anything. Pakistan can buy weapons by only 3 countries. China, germany and turkey. Apart from it pakistan dont have much option sir. China the only country pakistan can trust sir.

 

[Arsalan]

these are the matter were reliability on supplier as much important as the reliability of supplies!!
China is the only option that fits into this frame!

regards!

 

[SinoIndusFriendship]

it surely do not end there, i also understand your idea of not putting all eggs in one basket but it is better to keep them there rather then to throw half of them to every tom dick and harry!
the options that we can access other then J10 are the rafale and gripen, nothing else!
brother if you take a look at there specs and then compare there prices the decesion of PAF to go for FC20 is justified. anther added advantage with chines deals is the opportuinity to learn and modify the systems according to our wish and requirments. this do not come from any other supplier dear!
FC20 is a true 4.5 generation MRCA and stand in league of rafale, Gripen and Su30s. we must not dislike chines equipment just because they are jsut chines (questioning there reliability)

regards!

In the land of blind men, the one-eye man is KING! Likewise, all around the one-eye China are blind men.

 

[SBD-3]

We can have a lot better stuff, the world for pakistan does not end with china.

ya sure we can have JSF
the point is that
1) confess we are not that rich
2) China mostly offers ToT with no strings like Europe and US
3) Like JF-17 its not something that's extraordinary but it will give us the 1st step same is the case with F-22P same is the case with Agosta 90b so at least we are taking 1st step
The way you see things. I wish we were KSA and could spend 44 Bn USD a year on our defence

 

[Myth_buster_1]

All I can say is that Pakistan Air Force disagrees with you brother!

They wont be disagreeing if they had budget like IAF.

They picked FC-20 over Rafale, Typhoon and Gripen, despite the Rafale being available with next to no worries about sanctions. Notice the PAF evaluated FC-20 alongside platforms such as Rafale and Gripen, not Mirage 2000 and F-16.

They picked FC-20 because it is the cheapest (cost effective) 4.5 generation MRCA.

We don't know the configuration of any of the PAF's fighters!

we do have a basic idea of F-16s.
- F100-PW-229 or F110-GE-129 Engines
- APG-68(V)9 radar
- Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS);
- AN/ARC-238 SINCGARS radios with HAVE QUICK I/II;
- Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System
- AN/ALQ-184 or AN/ALQ-131 or AN/ALQ-187 Electronic Counter
- AN/ALQ-178 Self-Protection Electronic Warfare Suites without
- AN/ALQ-211(V)9

We have a retired Group Captain (P.Shamim sahib) telling us they have South African/Pakistani MRAAMs operational, what makes you think you know anything about the PAF's most potent equipment?

If thats true then GOOD FOR PAF!

The PAF should induct new aeroplanes if and when they meet the requirements, not merely to respond to their adversary.

And PAF requirement is to meet its adversary capability. You see what ever india inducts or introduces new technology PAF has to respond to that threat. by the end of next decade IAF will have 5th generation fighters and PAF will "RESPOND" to its adversary.

 

[Patriot]

Sir if i believe you then china has more money but why other countries not selling china much? China can buy them by power of money but major countries not selling china anything. Same way sir if pakistan has money it doesn't mean pakistan can buy anything. Pakistan can buy weapons by only 3 countries. China, germany and turkey. Apart from it pakistan dont have much option sir. China the only country pakistan can trust sir.

Looks like you forgot Sweden, Ukraine, France and Italy.

 

[PakShaheen79]

Sir if i believe you then china has more money but why other countries not selling china much? China can buy them by power of money but major countries not selling china anything. Same way sir if pakistan has money it doesn't mean pakistan can buy anything. Pakistan can buy weapons by only 3 countries. China, germany and turkey. Apart from it pakistan dont have much option sir. China the only country pakistan can trust sir.

How Pakistan got Agosta-90B, Erieye, Il-78 tankers and Spada air defense system? West know very well once they allow Chinese to buy how all the stuff will be ended in Chinese beside i don't think apart from EF-2000, Rafale etc.West has many things to offfer to China. USA is another story altogether.

 

[hj786]

They wont be disagreeing if they had budget like IAF.

They had a budget in the late 1980s for the EF Typhoon of the time, the F-16. 70 of them in addition to the 40 already delivered. Remember what happened?

They picked FC-20 because it is the cheapest (cost effective) 4.5 generation MRCA.

So you're trying to argue that the PAF should NOT buy the most cost-effective aeroplane that meets all their requirements?

we do have a basic idea of F-16s.

You can read the brochure, is that it? All you have is what the names of the F-16's systems are?

If thats true then GOOD FOR PAF!

Yes sir, good for them. Did you understand the point I was trying to make?

And PAF requirement is to meet its adversary capability. You see what ever india inducts or introduces new technology PAF has to respond to that threat.

One problem: your definition of "new technology" is the Flanker-H.

by the end of next decade IAF will have 5th generation fighters

Sure they will. Because the InAF gets everything right on time, don't they?

and PAF will "RESPOND" to its adversary.

What good are the Eurofighter Typhoons you are advocating against InAF's 5th generation fighters that they WILL CERTAINLY HAVE by 2020? By your logic the PAF should be ordering F-22 Raptors right now.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

it surely do not end there, i also understand your idea of not putting all eggs in one basket but it is better to keep them there rather then to throw half of them to every tom dick and harry!

Mind you we have not thrown any eggs in wrong places as of now. Type-214, Milgem, F-16s AMRAAM JDAM JSOW are certainly our golden eggs.

the options that we can access other then J10 are the rafale and gripen, nothing else!

and both were technically better option.

brother if you take a look at there specs and then compare there prices the decesion of PAF to go for FC20 is justified.

Thats what i am trying to say, FC-20 is a cost effective option thats why it was chosen.

anther added advantage with chines deals is the opportuinity to learn and modify the systems according to our wish and requirments.

Its going to be very hard to explain our fellow pakistani members that the pak-china military cooperation is not as lovely as we all pretend to think. 2 army officers that i have talked to have serious reservation about chinese equipments. Even they have their own conditions but not to a extreme like american and i am not making that up but saying exactly their words. I was just like you front of them trying to convince them that China provides us the best of the best equipments that we want but again and again got the same answer (NO). the FC-20 is merely a further upgrade of J-10A which could be done in span of years rather then a decade for some reason. just one of my observation, the IRST on FC-20 is most likely to be one from J-11 so not the latest equipment considering we are talking about 2015.
The only solution to make FC-20 ture 4.5 generation MRCA is to intergate western avionics, radar, armaments etc comparable to their latest 4.5 generation MRCA.

this do not come from any other supplier dear!
FC20 is a true 4.5 generation MRCA and stand in league of rafale, Gripen and Su30s. we must not dislike chines equipment just because they are jsut chines (questioning there reliability)

no i do not hate chinese nor do i blindly have a love affair with china.
JF-17 is by far the best venture between pak and china.