PAF's Electronic Warfare F-16 Falcon

[TOPGUN]

All F-16s as far as I know have gold tinted canopy. The rear fixed part is clear.

The gold tint protects from any radiation including the sun.

The intense gold tint in the picture looks more like a photoshopped image.

Hi bro, I am sorry but I do not believe that all our F-16's have tinted canopy someone correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Naif al Hilali]

Hi bro, I am sorry but I do not believe that all our F-16's have tinted canopy someone correct me if I am wrong.

https://defence.pk/threads/pafs-electronic-warfare-f-16-falcon.469456/page-2#post-9058615

"airmarshal said: ↑
All F-16s as far as I know have gold tinted canopy. The rear fixed part is clear.

The gold tint protects from any radiation including the sun.

The intense gold tint in the picture looks more like a photoshopped image."

No

 

[TOPGUN]

https://defence.pk/threads/pafs-electronic-warfare-f-16-falcon.469456/page-2#post-9058615

"airmarshal said: ↑
All F-16s as far as I know have gold tinted canopy. The rear fixed part is clear.

The gold tint protects from any radiation including the sun.

The intense gold tint in the picture looks more like a photoshopped image."

No

I know what he said and meant ......

 

[Naif al Hilali]

I know what he said and meant ......

Sorry just pointing out my own reply to his question because it seems it got bundled in between my other posts.

Thanks

 

[TOPGUN]

Sorry just pointing out my own reply to his question because it seems it got bundled in between my other posts.

Thanks

No worries my brother

 

[CriticalThought]

Question: Much is written about cloaking an aircraft's radar signature. But what about its audio/visual/physical signatures? The audio signature is obvious. An aircraft flying at high altitudes or under cloud cover has a natural cloaking. But physical signatures included the change of pressure as the airframe cuts through air, the exhaust gases that flow out, the IR signature at both the top and the bottom. Especially with IR, the engine gases need to escape somewhere and will be relatively hot. Especially in high altitude flying, the gases will be hotter than surrounding air. F-22 and B-2 Spirit try to keep the exhaust on top of the plane, but a very high flying balloon/drone or even satellite could theoretically pick up the IR signature.

Thoughts?

 

[vizier]

Question: Much is written about cloaking an aircraft's radar signature. But what about its audio/visual/physical signatures? The audio signature is obvious. An aircraft flying at high altitudes or under cloud cover has a natural cloaking. But physical signatures included the change of pressure as the airframe cuts through air, the exhaust gases that flow out, the IR signature at both the top and the bottom. Especially with IR, the engine gases need to escape somewhere and will be relatively hot. Especially in high altitude flying, the gases will be hotter than surrounding air. F-22 and B-2 Spirit try to keep the exhaust on top of the plane, but a very high flying balloon/drone or even satellite could theoretically pick up the IR signature.

Thoughts?

It does not mean stealth will protect aircraft from being seen in all ranges, all freqs or all angles equally. But it increases flexibility greatly in missions planning. A high flying aircraft wont be seen by ir detector from distance far enough until it completes its strike mission to predetermined static targets.

This doesnt mean ir detectors dont have promises. Aircraft needs to stay lower like 7 10km altitude to detect mobile targets with its own imaging infrared but the aircraft can well be detected from the ground as well at that altitude that is why drones are generally used for target detection at low altitudes. Focal plane ir arrays have a future imo that can be combined into mobile shorad systems to target jet aircraft vlo or not flying upto medium altitudes

 

[litman]

how many birds with tinted canopies we have in PAF. i have only seen pix of 707 with this canopy. so it means one F-16??
what happens if it gets lost ?

 

[assassin123]

The F-16 nearest the camera is said to be exclusively equipped for electronic warfare.

Reportedly the gold tinted canopy protects the pilot from intense radiation which is emitted when he carries out electronic warfare and countermeasures,



View attachment 364000

No that's wrong
Gold tinted windows are used for reduction of RCS the cockpit contributes to a large amount of RCS the gold tinted windows absorb a lot of the radar emissions. You might have noticed the same type of canopies in F22

 

[gambit]

I am an absolute layman on the topic so kindly excuse me if this sounds stupid, but couldn't it be possible that this coating be serving both purposes like reducing RCS and also not allowing harmful radiation inside the cockpit?

When I was active duty, both the F-111 and the F-16 did not have the tinted canopy even though both jets were capable of carrying self protection jammer pods. When I was with the 72nd at MacDill, our A/Bs did not have the tinted canopies. Only later when we transitioned to the C/Ds did the tinted canopies started by one jet at a time. Basically, only when a jet is available for major scheduled maintenance would the canopy be modded, else it was kept on daily flight status. But then, MacDill and Luke were F-16 training bases, not combat deployable like Shaw, so these golden tinted canopy mods were not high priority for us.

That said...

It is true -- serving dual purpose -- but it depends on the jet where one function outweighs the other.

Self protection jammer pod is usually used (activated) when egressing the combat area. It means after you dropped your load on the enemy's head, you booked out at max thrust with a trail of EM noise behind you. On both the F-111 and F-16, the pods are slung underneath and the cockpits are shielded by the jets' bodies anyway.

The canopy mods would be more applicable to the F-16 than to the F-111 simply because the F-16 is a true fighter while the F-111 is more a bomber despite the F designator.

Most people do not know this, but with modern day air combat, going after a ground air defense combatant is just as dangerous as going after another jet fighter combatant. In many ways, it is more restrictive because the air defense missile unit is ground based, forcing you to maneuver with limited freedom in altitude. In other words, fly too high and you are no good to the mission, if needed and often it is needed, you have to get down to CAS altitude to kill that air defense missile unit. With this kind of proximity to the enemy's radar, I welcome any modification that would reduce the odds, not completely eliminated, of his radar acquiring me. If his radar hesitate acquisition by just one second because my cockpit was not reflective enough, that one second could mean my survival so I will take that mod.

This view...

...Of an F-16 is extremely rare in ACM. For the human eye or the seeking radar, with this view, the cockpit well is statistically irrelevant. The entire jet is essentially a giant reflective plate. But in ACM, this view do not last for long, more like a few milliseconds at best. Too short for any seeking radar to calculate a lock-over-time algorithm.

A visual size is not the same as the true physical size. Simply put, the visual size of a car differs from front to side. Just like the common story how a group of blind men perceives an elephant base upon different areas of the animal each blind man touched.

This view...

...Is more common in ACM. Not just for the F-16 but for any maneuvering jet. If I have to face an enemy seeking radar, air or ground, presenting myself to him in this fashion, I do not want me in my cockpit well to assist that radar in acquiring a lock on me. If a canopy mod would reduce the time of the enemy radar acquiring a lock by just one second, long enough for me to launch a HARM at that ground air defense radar, I would welcome that canopy mod.

Now, for the jet that is a dedicated jammer, like the Navy's Growler series. Simple.

These jets carry jammer pods that are capable of both focused and wide area broadcast signals, and those pods are carried in multiple positions on the jet. Some of those positions, under wing and wing tips, when they are in wide area broadcast mode, the cockpit is vulnerable to both being jammed and itself reflects those signals. Sort of like being blinded and holding a beacon at the same time.

Also, I was wondering when jamming is being performed by a fighter ... what is the state of performance of its own radar? Would it still be able to provide launching information about the target to it's radar guided bvraams? There must be a lot of interference from the jamming waves being sent from the jamming pod / emitters?

In wide area broadcast mode, the jet can interfere its own radar operations.

EW is both a skill and an art. It is a skill in the sense that you are supported by a lot of technical assets, in training and out, that you will gain technical proficiency in using EW. It is an art in the sense that you have analyze the latest electronic intelligence about the target area and create an EW battleplan to support the mission. You have to know, at best you can, what the air defense fields in that area.

Certain short pulse target acquisition radars may require only focused short bursts from you to disrupt its operations and delay missile launches, while certain volume search radars will require you to be the first to enter the combat zone and saturate the area with as much EM noise as possible to mask the rest of the attack group. You have to plan but at the same time, you cannot be so rigid as to remain locked in that plan while combat is underway. If your plan involves wide area broadcast that would interfere with the EM operations, radar and communication, of the rest of the attack group, you have to coordinate with the group as to when they will be operating blind EM-wise.

So yes, you can severely degrades your own radar/comm operation if you are not careful.

 

[aliyusuf]

When I was active duty, both the F-111 and the F-16 did not have the tinted canopy even though both jets were capable of carrying self protection jammer pods. When I was with the 72nd at MacDill, our A/Bs did not have the tinted canopies. Only later when we transitioned to the C/Ds did the tinted canopies started by one jet at a time. Basically, only when a jet is available for major scheduled maintenance would the canopy be modded, else it was kept on daily flight status. But then, MacDill and Luke were F-16 training bases, not combat deployable like Shaw, so these golden tinted canopy mods were not high priority for us.

That said...

It is true -- serving dual purpose -- but it depends on the jet where one function outweighs the other.

Self protection jammer pod is usually used (activated) when egressing the combat area. It means after you dropped your load on the enemy's head, you booked out at max thrust with a trail of EM noise behind you. On both the F-111 and F-16, the pods are slung underneath and the cockpits are shielded by the jets' bodies anyway.

The canopy mods would be more applicable to the F-16 than to the F-111 simply because the F-16 is a true fighter while the F-111 is more a bomber despite the F designator.

Most people do not know this, but with modern day air combat, going after a ground air defense combatant is just as dangerous as going after another jet fighter combatant. In many ways, it is more restrictive because the air defense missile unit is ground based, forcing you to maneuver with limited freedom in altitude. In other words, fly too high and you are no good to the mission, if needed and often it is needed, you have to get down to CAS altitude to kill that air defense missile unit. With this kind of proximity to the enemy's radar, I welcome any modification that would reduce the odds, not completely eliminated, of his radar acquiring me. If his radar hesitate acquisition by just one second because my cockpit was not reflective enough, that one second could mean my survival so I will take that mod.

This view...

...Of an F-16 is extremely rare in ACM. For the human eye or the seeking radar, with this view, the cockpit well is statistically irrelevant. The entire jet is essentially a giant reflective plate. But in ACM, this view do not last for long, more like a few milliseconds at best. Too short for any seeking radar to calculate a lock-over-time algorithm.

A visual size is not the same as the true physical size. Simply put, the visual size of a car differs from front to side. Just like the common story how a group of blind men perceives an elephant base upon different areas of the animal each blind man touched.

This view...

...Is more common in ACM. Not just for the F-16 but for any maneuvering jet. If I have to face an enemy seeking radar, air or ground, presenting myself to him in this fashion, I do not want me in my cockpit well to assist that radar in acquiring a lock on me. If a canopy mod would reduce the time of the enemy radar acquiring a lock by just one second, long enough for me to launch a HARM at that ground air defense radar, I would welcome that canopy mod.

Now, for the jet that is a dedicated jammer, like the Navy's Growler series. Simple.

These jets carry jammer pods that are capable of both focused and wide area broadcast signals, and those pods are carried in multiple positions on the jet. Some of those positions, under wing and wing tips, when they are in wide area broadcast mode, the cockpit is vulnerable to both being jammed and itself reflects those signals. Sort of like being blinded and holding a beacon at the same time.


In wide area broadcast mode, the jet can interfere its own radar operations.

EW is both a skill and an art. It is a skill in the sense that you are supported by a lot of technical assets, in training and out, that you will gain technical proficiency in using EW. It is an art in the sense that you have analyze the latest electronic intelligence about the target area and create an EW battleplan to support the mission. You have to know, at best you can, what the air defense fields in that area.

Certain short pulse target acquisition radars may require only focused short bursts from you to disrupt its operations and delay missile launches, while certain volume search radars will require you to be the first to enter the combat zone and saturate the area with as much EM noise as possible to mask the rest of the attack group. You have to plan but at the same time, you cannot be so rigid as to remain locked in that plan while combat is underway. If your plan involves wide area broadcast that would interfere with the EM operations, radar and communication, of the rest of the attack group, you have to coordinate with the group as to when they will be operating blind EM-wise.

So yes, you can severely degrades your own radar/comm operation if you are not careful.

Thank you sir, for such detailed and excellent explanation on both of my queries. I really appreciate it.

 

[SQ8]

Question: Much is written about cloaking an aircraft's radar signature. But what about its audio/visual/physical signatures? The audio signature is obvious. An aircraft flying at high altitudes or under cloud cover has a natural cloaking. But physical signatures included the change of pressure as the airframe cuts through air, the exhaust gases that flow out, the IR signature at both the top and the bottom. Especially with IR, the engine gases need to escape somewhere and will be relatively hot. Especially in high altitude flying, the gases will be hotter than surrounding air. F-22 and B-2 Spirit try to keep the exhaust on top of the plane, but a very high flying balloon/drone or even satellite could theoretically pick up the IR signature.

Thoughts?

Depends on which sensors are feeding into. Until the F-35's DAS, IR signatures have not been the most reliable way to track something at long ranges.

 

[WarFariX]

Apparently the gold tint was also applied on the Growler's canopy, again the author gives a different reason.

''EA-6Bs have this is well - it shields the cockpit and crew from radiation. Gold is a very dense material with high conductivity, so even an extremely thin layer (so you can see through it) would already be effective. The gold coating would create a "Faraday cage" effect.

On an EA-6B this was very useful since this aircraft could carry up to 5 jamming pods which emitted an enormous amount of energy in the form of radiation.''

since you r saying that gold is conducting material (off course it is) then dont you think that when below ozone layer inside the clouds , shocks would be created due to conductivity (relaying this ti physics charges and earthing)

 

[CriticalThought]

Depends on which sensors are feeding into. Until the F-35's DAS, IR signatures have not been the most reliable way to track something at long ranges.

WOW. If I could, I would make this mandatory viewing before anyone on the forum was allowed to comment on 5+gen. Thanks Sir!!

@Zarvan @pakistanipower @The Accountant @Naif al Hilali

Feel free to tag more people so they can see Oscar's post here.