PAF's Defensive Doctrine---Out of Ignorance---Out of Incompetence Or What?

[Reverse Thinker]

So as a fix - My thoughts on non-traditional options (things not relating to a bigger air-force, nuclear missiles, etc) to improve and update Pakistan's defense capabilities and posture.

Pakistan can't match India pound for pound, but it doesn't have to. What Pakistan needs is to make India hurt enough that war would be catastrophic for both sides - ultimately this is achieved through both sides nuclear arsenals, but on conventional terms Pakistan has options too. Let's explore them:

1. Spread critical infrastructure and C4I capabilities over a wide geographic area to prevent a "decapitation strike" from severing the entire command structure instantaneously. Perhaps utilize deep or hardened command structures:

2. Invest greater numbers in mobile counter-air and counter-missile defenses. HQ-9 provides both capabilities in a single platform, but like S-300 it's reported to be less suited for counter-missile duties.

HQ-9 is also resistant to electronic injections and attacks, and with India building up its electronic warfare capabilities, this is a plus for Pakistan.

3. Speaking of electronic warfare, cyber defenses can be used for offensive and defense purposes too. No only do strong cyber defense protect one's own info, but they can be used to gather intel on a enemy nation - as the US, Russia and China have found out, there aren't any air-tight systems. Invest in cyber warfare to negatively effect Indian battle-planning, intercept their communications, steal sensitive info and if necessary affect civilian infrastructure too:

Few of the world's power grids are capable of withstanding a military-strength cyber attack.

4. For naval defense Pakistan needs to invest greater assets in counter-submarine warfare - what better way to keep Indian ships honest by investing in your own submarines?

Considering Pakistan is most concerned with the regional waters around its shores, nuclear submarines don't make too much sense, but SSKs do. Already Pakistan is addressing this concern via the acquisition of several S20 submarines, but a few more - 4 perhaps, would improve Pakistan's operational capabilities by allowing for more ships to be at sea at any one time.

India's counter submarine capabilities are good, but they aren't perfect.

Negotiate with China for 2-3 Y-8Q - they would be Pakistan's P-8I.

5. Forget about ICBMs:

Should we opt for the ICBM?

Invest in SLVs (Space Launch Vehicle). Not only does this open up space communications to Pakistan, but it also opens up intelligence gathering capabilities.

Does Pakistan know where India's naval assets are all the time? How about their command structures? Their mobile AA missiles? Tank formations? No it doesn't, but investing in space intel capabilities open this avenue up for Pakistan and allows Pakistan to monitor Indian military movement, communications and infrastructure .

*if anything nuclear deterrence actually increases the potential for conflict, just not directly. Instead, via the Stability-Instability Paradox, the potential for proxy conflict goes up:

The stability–instability paradox is an international relations theory regarding the effect of nuclear weapons and mutually assured destruction. It states that when two countries each have nuclear weapons, the probability of a direct war between them greatly decreases, but the probability of minor or indirect conflicts between them increases. This occurs because rational actors want to avoid nuclear wars, and thus they neither start major conflicts nor allow minor conflicts to escalate into major conflicts—thus making it safe to engage in minor conflicts. For instance, during the Cold War the United States and the Soviet Union never engaged each other in warfare, but fought proxy wars in Korea,Vietnam, Angola, the Middle East, Nicaragua and Afghanistan and spent substantial amounts of money and manpower on gaining relative influence over the third world.

Stability–instability paradox - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

6. India is stepping up its own space capabilities and Pakistan needs a counter. Even if you can't destroy them via ASAT or electronic warfare, you can still negatively affect them using some ground-based methods. One such method is "blinding lasers" to interfere with electro-optical satellites or damage critical electronics on remote sensing satellites.

This is a satellite spotting laser. Larger, more powerful lasers can damage satellites.

7. Cost is going to be a problem for any large military facing a large foe that is gaining in sophistication. One recourse is to opt for unmanned areal and naval assets. Pakistan already has its Burraq drone for counter-land duties, and perhaps a sea-surveillance/counter-shipping version can be worked out too, but Pakistan - facing an increasing submarine threat from India, can offset the cost of improving its own submarine capability (should that be too costly) by opting for UUVs to patrol and monitor Pakistani waters.

Suicide UUVs can be used as cost-effective anti-submarine weapons should they detect a target.

These are easily deploy-able from existing ships and are a cost effective solution.

8. I know, I know, "how's Pakistan going to pay for it?"

• that wasn't really the point of this post. These are real world options, but a hypothetical set of impact recommendations that would make a difference.
• But that doesn't mean Pakistan is left stranded either. It has options.

Pakistan's defense doctrine right now is predicated on maintaining a nuclear deterrence to deter Indian aggression or retaliatory action. Keep this! Maintain a minimum credible deterrence, and once the economy improves, shift military spending into high gear. It takes work, the world is ill right now, but Pakistan is making progress. Reforms such as revising the tax code and tax enforcement must be mandated. Reform helps an economy grow and be more resilient to future shocks.

CPEC and China provide Pakistan with an important life-line.

---

These are my thoughts on defense options. I understand they might not all be feasible or affordable, they aren't for most nations, but these option can provide Pakistan with an updated deterrence that brings it into the 21st century and positions Pakistan for future success.

Space, cyber warfare, sub-surface warfare, drones, these are option Pakistan can't afford not to invest in!

@Armstrong @Oscar @MastanKhan @Gufi @Indus Falcon - thoughts? Counter proposals?

sir, my question when in situation of war tanks vs tanks , soldier vs soldier , gun vs gun, fighter vs fighter, air defence vs air defence systems are being used to defeat enemy then why PAF concentrate more on air defence systems and land forces than not procuring fighter jets to counter enemy fighters other side also have same airdefence systems on the field to stop our fighters but winning air force will be in that situation who will deal all types of land air and naval threats not only defending but penetrating deep inside to attack on vital assests as well.

 

[SirHatesALot]

^^Can your suggestions help Pakistan change the status-quo?

 

[Quwa]

Out of reality. Folks, the Pakistani economy absolutely sucks and it is in no shape of supporting a regional power scale military. It is truly thanks to the ingenuity and grit of Pakistani defence planners that the armed forces have come as far as they have, but you can make miracles out of mud for so long before you run into a wall.

To have a very powerful PAF the Pakistani economy will need to go through a series of fundamental changes enabling it to fund it major acquisitions. It needs the infrastructure to get locals to invest, to attract foreigners to invest, to allow the govt to collect revenue, etc.

 

[Indus Falcon]

Hi,

As I stated in the other thread---we cannot keep on making nuc threats against our sovereignty all the time. This threat was well and good in 199---2002---after that it started eating up on every sympathetic ear that we had.

When the seriousness of Fukushima reactor became obvious----the business slowed down to a crawl on the west coast cities in the united states---and Fukushima reactor incident was not expected to be that bad.

The world had turned a corner after the stock market crash in 2008----people lost their life savings and many have built them up----and no one wants to lose them again----. So when Pakistan talks about the nuc option----it is creating animosity amongst the public that it did not need to.

The problem here is that it does not understand of the consequences---it does not want to understand that the problem is its own doing----the problem has been created because one wing of the military did not buy the right item when given multiple opportunities.

That is what it is all about----we are alienating the world slowly but surely because of the screw-ups of the PAF.

If Paf had bought the Rafales after 2002 and had 5 sqdrn's of them in stock----things would have been running smoothly.

Even now---if Pakistan has aircraft that can cut open the indian belly on the Mumbai coastline---we will see a difference in the attitude thatindia has----.

4 Sqdrn strength of JH7B's with aesa---totally changes the of the strike capabilities of the air force again---.

Just reaching into Maharashtra changes the picture completely---and you cannot do that on JF 17's alone----.

Pakistan needs to find around 5 billion dollars to upgrade its air force on a fastrak----in a very short time.

That would reduce the continuous standoffs and tension across the border----we will stop making these childish nuc threats that we do all the time---.

Without a powerful air force---Pakistan is doomed into failure at india's whim.

Because every time india raises the level of threat---it effects our forward progression immensely---.

JF 17 is not the answer to Pakistan's prayers.



No I did not-----. It is in a totally different context to that of the air force.

And you know where this 5/10 bn could have come from, but we messed it up big time!

Instead of JH7B's wouldn't J11 / J10 be a better option? After all, whenever PAF buys, it's not like they buy off the shelf, the customize it, to their own requirement.

@Technogaianist What you have mentioned makes a lot of sense. Can you open up a PM with me?

 

[Indus Falcon]

I have begun to hate your posts with these funny numbers. Looks like 'nishaan virus' has infected you badly. Please stop acting like a kid with a long list of toys he wishes to buy on the Christmas. The professionals know what they need and how much. Please go to mosque or madrassah and listen the sermons of some semi -literate tableeghi Mullah for that is all you have born for.

Sir, Actually what he is saying makes a lot of sense, IF the PAF were to go from a defensive posture, to offensive.

The Current fleet, plus other factors (that cannot be discussed publicly) will insure that the PAF does it's job properly. BUT to have offensive capability we do need 5 squadrons +/- of a better aircraft other than the JF17, be it the J11 or the J10.

I personally have serious doubts about the JH7B, since I honestly don't know what this aircraft is, in its latest incarnation.

 

[Ali Q]

Its Easy to sit, write a blog full of Your personal likes and dislikes, and a totally different ball game to be in the actual position where you have to make a decision that may change the course of history, we can write about the rights and wrongs regarding PAF buying F-16 and India buying Mirage 2000, or us not buying Rafale, Gripen or i don't Know what Mastaan Sir's obsession with JH-7s is, but at the end of the day It's the men who have flown in the heat of battle, handed over peoples' asses or gotten their asses handed over to them by people better than them who sit at the top and make decisions, they don't have the absolute freedom of going along with their wills and wishes, It's a lot of factors that define what happens, i'd say again we have the freedom to sit here and write all we wish, but that's not what is always right and hind sight is always 20/20

 

[war&peace]

@MastanKhan with all due respect. I like your article and agree with it partially but as far as I know that Mirage-2000 had a higher price tag than F-16. Furthermore, the French demanded hard cash. F-16 is a more capable aircraft than Mirage-2000. PAF had a good experience with F86 Sabre and F-104 Starfighters.
PAF is not defensive and is not planning to just fight on home ground as it has acquired air to air refuelling capability and JF-17 thunder block II also has this capability which simply means they want to go deep into enemy territory. Also the acquisition of AWACS systems will allow PAF to locate enemy airplanes deep inside enemy territory and intercept them there. Furthermore, it is not just the aircraft itself but the weapons and system it carries make a big difference. Perhaps you know or not that during UK-Argentina war for Falklands in 1982, Argentina had faster Mirages and it outnumbered the British airforce but the sea-harrier carried a BVR which made the big difference. I think you got too much carried away with built up emotions and could not keep any eye on all the facts. The best policy for Pakistan is to invest in R&D, improve JF-17 thunder, design a new 5+ generation aircraft in a multination jv. Focus on better avionics and develop its own jet-engines.

 

[syedali73]

And you know where this 5/10 bn could have come from, but we messed it up big time!

Instead of JH7B's wouldn't J11 / J10 be a better option? After all, whenever PAF buys, it's not like they buy off the shelf, the customize it, to their own requirement.

Bhai, unlike J-11 that is a Russian Su-27 -derivative, JH7B which is a Chinese design and optimized for naval operations maybe a better option. I guess that is why Matan saheb is emphasizing this much on JH7B.

 

[Indus Falcon]

Its Easy to sit, write a blog full of Your personal likes and dislikes, and a totally different ball game to be in the actual position where you have to make a decision that may change the course of history, we can write about the rights and wrongs regarding PAF buying F-16 and India buying Mirage 2000, or us not buying Rafale, Gripen or i don't Know what Mastaan Sir's obsession with JH-7s is, but at the end of the day It's the men who have flown in the heat of battle, handed over peoples' asses or gotten their asses handed over to them by people better than them who sit at the top and make decisions, they don't have the absolute freedom of going along with their wills and wishes, It's a lot of factors that define what happens, i'd say again we have the freedom to sit here a write all we wish, but that's not what is always right and hind sight is always 20/20

Are you Dr.M. Ali Q?

 

[Ali Q]

Are you Dr.M. Ali Q?

I don't know what to say.. I'm definitely not a doc..

 

[Indus Falcon]

I don't know what to say.. I'm definitely not a doc..

A simple yes or no would have sufficed. Thanks!

Bhai, unlike J-11 that is a Russian Su-27 -derivative, JH7B which is a Chinese design and optimized for naval operations maybe a better option. I guess that is why Matan saheb is emphasizing this much on JH7B.

There have been some rumors, and maybe Mastan Sahab has some concrete info, I on the other hand do not. And the issue I have with the JH7B is the fact that it's an old design, despite the new AESA radar.

Now like I said earlier, I don't know what the Chinese have done with it, in it's latest incarnation. Secondly compared to a J11, which aircraft has more scope for improvements / up-gradations?

These, and plenty more questions which require not only serious technical details, but people who have actually flown them. As far as I know, there isn't a single type of a/c in the Chinese inventory in which PAF pilots aren't well versed in.

Nonetheless the glaring gap in capability does remain.

Now what I would like to know is ball park figures of J11 & JH7B, anyone?

 

[syedali73]

Sir, Actually what he is saying makes a lot of sense, IF the PAF were to go from a defensive posture, to offensive.

The Current fleet, plus other factors (that cannot be discussed publicly) will insure that the PAF does it's job properly. BUT to have offensive capability we do need 5 squadrons +/- of a better aircraft other than the JF17, be it the J11 or the J10.

I personally have serious doubts about the JH7B, since I honestly don't know what this aircraft is, in its latest incarnation.

Having more horses to ride always makes sense but non-professionals must not start prescribing the numbers for they are clueless about such procurements. One time it is ok, second time it can be ignored but coming up with all sorts of numbers in every thread pretty much renders one a laughing stock. I wish three squadrons of F-22 were flying in PAF colors, I wish another 5 squadrons of F-35 were soaring skies in PAF livery but is this even logical to wish in current scenario where 0.3% of Pakistanis pay tax? Lets be realistic and talk about things that are possible. I can see that Pakistan military's high command has finally come to the realization that limping economy has become a grater threat to Pakistan security as with this economy and kind of crooks that are at the helm, time is not far when (God forbidden) we'll become a satellite state of Bharat. Military procurements are directly related to healthy and booming economy and if something that needs to be fixed concurrent to terrorism, it is economy.

 

[SQ8]

FOREWARD: It is ALWAYS recommended for members who are truly interested in the defence matters of our country to carry out some research. Not just read the first two threads and consider them gospel. The same way, don't go by the first or second pages of google but read through more accounts, more narratives; both for and against. Whilst an old practice, books always help and there are many available now in both original and(sadly) pirated form on the internet.
Books(unlike forum posts) carry with them the reputation of the publisher and are generally better sorted out factually or at the very least carry a name which has(or has not) a reputation. Getting even some information out of various sources will not have you going around clapping your hands like monkeys at every other supposed "revolutionary" idea or dismissing anything that does not conform to what you have read in the 8th grade. It is what distinguishes knowledge from university degrees and work experience.

Forming opinions or assuming forum rants as a basis for knowledge especially in subjects such as defence matters is a folly no different than being brainwashed into believing that our religion wants you to kill all non-muslims wherever you find them. There are well versed writers on the subject, and many from our country whose works are available at the click of the mouse if you know how to use google(I cant help you with that) to sort out the rhetoric from the factual, the fictional from the well grounded.

That goes not just for the following post, but also for anything you find written on Defence.pk be it from Me, the Admin or a new member. Always read much much more than you think the other member has before posting something. Because regardless of whether you know more or not, at least you wont look like a fool answering them.

As a final note, KNOW TO AGREE TO DISAGREE.

NOW::. AHEM..

Hi,

For the last 30 plus years I have been hearing these words that the Pakistan's air force's doctrine is defensive in nature. And every time it raises the level of concern that I have for my motherland as if something does not sound right.

Because I know very well---that my navy----the ones with the least amount of budget and no show pomp and strut---they sent their men 2500 miles away to strike at the heat of the enemy's mighty ships in their little submarine. Even though they failed in their venture but they died in the far away backyard of the enemy heartland---nothing can glorify a death like dying in the enemy's backyard---so far away from your base---in anonymity to this day---we don't know the whole truth except that they laid down their lives on distant shores and are not with us anymore.

Because I know---that our army---the one that faces the wrath of the nation every 10 to 12 years---it also sent its soldiers across of the borders---and even though the things did not go well for them----and many of them died---but so many of them died on the other side of the border in the enemy territory----in the enemy's front yard---and that is no small achievement for a small army.

And then I hear about this doctrine----from our supposedly, the most cherished arm of our military wing---who claim to be the best of the best in the world---the military arm that struts around in arrogance and bravado---and preens around everywhere like Peacocks in heat----that they want to stay home and fight the battles on the home turf----basically what they are saying is that we will bring the enemy home---the enemy will destroy us and thus destroy the rest of the infra structure----.

This is called the defensive air combat doctrine---where out of fear or incompetence or for whatever reasons you do not have the ability to strike at the enemy deep in its own woods---this doctrine is also know as the doctrine of cowardice.

But how did it start---how did we get from an offensive air force to the one fighting with the tail between our legs.

Well---like everything else---it started with incompetence at the top during the 1971 war----. The afghan war brought an opportune moment for the Pakistan air force---sanctions were off---and PAF had the option to buy different aircraft----. Being a French aircraft dominant air force---it should have by default stayed with the French---goinf rom Mirage 3/5 to Mirage F1 and then Mirage 2000.

But during the war---it got the carrot dangled in front of it--the fabled F16----. On the other side was the Mirage 2000---on a given day each aircraft could outdo the other. The PAF BLUNDERED into buying the F16---and it left the gate open for its arch enemy to buy the supposedly number 2 aircraft.

Indian air force was woefully equipped at that time---it only had Russian aircraft as its primary fighter aircraft.

PAF thru its blunder---allowed the indian air force to purchase the Mirage 2000---and gave the enemy parity in the battlefield in the skies----.

PAF lies that it needed the F16's to fight afghan air force----now we know that was right---. The mirage 3 were well equipped to take on the afghan air force---as was the case in the first couple of afghan planes shot down by the mirages---.

If the PAF had rejected the F 16----the indian air force would not have been able to buy the mirage 2000---because the Pakistan would have been the primary buyer.

Then came the sanctions and another opportunity to buy mirage 2000----and the supposedly honest sec def of Pakistan rejected the deal because there was too much graft in that deal.

So---what was the big deal about the graft---100 million---200 million---in the fortunes of nations---this amount is not even peanuts. This purchase would have given us back our parity over our arch enemy India.

This blunder was a nail in the coffin of a prestigious air force which got destroyed by the actions of an HONEST OFFICER.

Then came 9/11 and lifting of sanctions---PAF now has the funds to purchase an aircraft on a fastrak to fill up the gap that had widened over the years---but we forget to realize is that this was not the same fighting force of the mid 60----this was a force that had ROT set in its roots---the solid frame had been eaten by the termites---it was force in show only and the GUTS belonged to men long dead lying in their graves.

The 4 years after 9/11 were lost in jumping from one plane to the other---acting totally clueless like a kid in the candy store with pocket full of money wants to buy every thing and ends up buying nothing.

The primary target of the air force like any other force was to procure and aircraft that can match the front line enemy aircraft one on one and come out ahead. So that the enemy does not pose a threat to strike and create instability in the country----.

CONTD

The fact that there is not one bit of historical accuracy in any part of your posts is surprising to say the least, sounds like a rant akin to John Mc Cain at the 2008 election. Guess I need to come up with a better rant then.

Lets start with your claim that the PAF is defensive and never has gone beyond the border unlike our puny Navy and Army. Sure, I guess than the various airfield strikes taken in 65 were all just myths then. Pity the tail choppers never heard MastanKhan's version of history. The TRUTH IS OUT THERE.. ...or the new "Mere paas ao mere doston , aik Qissa suno".

The fact that PAF was the first to attack the IAF in 71 and repeated its nightly raids, but then again.. somehow MK only saw the Navy go and hence his rather dementia influenced ideal is probably correct. Not to mention the idiots in the Army who led their men to sure slaughter at Longewalla are the sort of heroes MK wants; martyrs, not effective warfighters.

Lets come to the new rant. Clearly since the JF-17 rant did not work out as it was rooted in logically baseless ideas, lets go after the F-16 because clearly we have a better idea of what to do with the PAF than those nincompoop Staff College graduates like with our years of experience in running air forces unlike ACM Shamim and his staff with people like ACM Hakimullah and Abbas Khattak.. who probably never fought a war and have no idea what air combat planning is about.

So here goes.

The afghan war brought an opportune moment for the Pakistan air force---sanctions were off---and PAF had the option to buy different aircraft----. Being a French aircraft dominant air force---it should have by default stayed with the French---goinf rom Mirage 3/5 to Mirage F1 and then Mirage 2000.

That sounds wonderful doesn't it? I mean the Afghan war starts out in 1979 and the whole Zia "peanut" speech to Carter. The Mirage F-1 was offered to the PAF back in the late 70's but perhaps the idea that the PAF has always had billions in its coffers seems to be only known to our resident oracle here who during his cheech and chong years had his pulse on the exact balance of the national exchequer. Because clearly the PAF was not aware of it and was instead scraping stuff out of its pockets to somehow get the blue flash purchases complete and provide a semblance of defensive capability.

Then comes all the aid, and mind you this is 1979-80, the Mirage 2000 is not even in the production stage whilst the F-16 is literally making every scene in Europe and had beaten the Mirage F-1 which was the latest the French offered even to their close neighbour Belgium( Not to mention Israel which by this time was pretty ok with the French but knew what is a better fighter, but the hell with the Israelis, what do they know of the great strategist MK).

But during the war---it got the carrot dangled in front of it--the fabled F16----. On the other side was the Mirage 2000---on a given day each aircraft could outdo the other. The PAF BLUNDERED into buying the F16---and it left the gate open for its arch enemy to buy the supposedly number 2 aircraft.

Indian air force was woefully equipped at that time---it only had Russian aircraft as its primary fighter aircraft.

Fiction works when preaching to those without knowledge, but when it comes to people who actually bothered to read and learn from multiple sources, your arguments are like tissue paper MK; what the heck as become of you?

The F-16 was NEVER dangled for the PAF, rather the PAF was being given the cheap hook with the F-5G(later F-20 tigershark). The PAF DEMANDED the F-16 which at that time was thought to be too sophisticated to be released to Pakistan. But the fact remained that the aircraft then(and TODAY) is still the epitome of Pakistan Air Force's fighting concept. It is the perfect balance of Manoeuvrability, Armament and speed that the PAF wanted in its fighting concepts.
The Mirage 2000 was still in its development phase and unlike the F-16, did not demonstrate the ability to go and outright bomb a heavily defended nuclear reactor. Something the PAF wanted outright of its new aircraft.

The IAF may have been woefully ill-equipped, but it was still better equipped than the PAF with the Mig-23 coming online, which makes this next one really nice.

PAF thru its blunder---allowed the indian air force to purchase the Mirage 2000---and gave the enemy parity in the battlefield in the skies----.

The PAF bought the F-16 with funds partially procured from Aid and the rest from its own coffers. Unlike the Americans, the French were looking to fleece the PAF throughout their dealings with us. So let me see, somehow getting an aircraft that is at the time the most sophisticated machine that can be procured the fastest(the M2K did not even have a production prototype until 82 while the F-16 was operational and battle tested) to defend against the Soviets was in our inventory by 1983.
And its gets funnier

PAF lies that it needed the F16's to fight afghan air force----now we know that was right---. The mirage 3 were well equipped to take on the afghan air force---as was the case in the first couple of afghan planes shot down by the mirages---.

I believe this is what inspires that,

Not much about operations undertaken by these units is known, but, according to press reports from that time, they scored their first kill - one MiG-21 of the DRAAF - on 16 April 1986, followed by another MiG-21 on 10 May. The PAF never confirmed any of these claims. Considering the circumstances at the time, it is possible that these engagements have happened, but, that - due to RoEs, influenced by the politics - the PAF was not ready to confirm kills of aircraft whose wreckage fell inside Afghanistan. The - probably - third engagement of Pakistani Mirages happened on 14 May 1986, around 11:00AM, when At 11:00AM of 14 May 1986, Sqn.Ldr. Rao Qamar Suleman and Flt.Lt. Nawaz of the 18th Sqn were on a CAP SE of Parachinar, when the GCI vectored them towards several slow flying targets closing at the border. Closing at high speed, both Mirage pilots experienced a dilemma of many fast-jet fliers when confronting heavily armed but slow attack helicopters.

I would take the kill account from Pakistani press as caution as NO other source corroborated the events nor has the PAF along with its later historical accounts ever acknowledged it.
AC Abdul Hameed Qadri (After whom PAF Minhas was later named)
No 5 TA&R and No 18 AS Squadrons. These squadrons operated from PAF Base Minhas in the relatively active period of 1986. Their participation was restricted to patrolling the border areas and manning the CAP stations with other squadrons. The enemy always respected their presence and did not dare to pursue attacks beyond the border. No 5 Squadron flew 108 sorties, including 54 CAPs whereas No 18 Squadron scrambled twelve times.
http://www.defencejournal.com/aug98/pakafghanwar1.

But if MK's logic on the Mirages being a massive deterrant is to be taken correct, then ipso facto there was NO need for the Mirage-2000 either because if the PAF bought that it would ALSO be lying about getting the Mirage-2000.

However, I would refer to the book of a man who might just know more about why the PAF wanted the F-16. His name is ACM Anwar Shamim and he also wrote a book called "The cutting edge". You folks should have a read instead of just sitting on defence.pk and believing every other thing put out here.

In the book ACM Shamim outlines the need for buying the F-16 was the growing Indian threat to attack Pakistan's nuclear facilities which were starting to develop. In return the PAF possessed NOTHING that could reply back to India. The Mirages were clearly unable to ensure that they would make it to Trombay in case Kahuta was hit, and hence the F-16 came about and not what the Americans were told about it or what is being repeated here. It was also the aircraft that the PAF could get the fastest and was at the time still a better buy than the Mirage-2000 as the PAF was aware of the limitations of the delta in sustained air combat.

Then came the sanctions and another opportunity to buy mirage 2000----and the supposedly honest sec def of Pakistan rejected the deal because there was too much graft in that deal.

So---what was the big deal about the graft---100 million---200 million---in the fortunes of nations---this amount is not even peanuts. This purchase would have given us back our parity over our arch enemy India.

This blunder was a nail in the coffin of a prestigious air force which got destroyed by the actions of an HONEST OFFICER.

Which brings us to the question of the Mirage 2000 ram kahani and MK's obsession with it for reasons he is yet unable to coherently present. I think I'll do those honors as to why the Mirage-2000 remains a Saga to the PAF.

The first rumblings for the Mirage-2000 in the PAF started back in 1985 as the PAF's high command was still looking for a long range deep strike aircraft to augment the F-16(in case the Americans dumped them again) as the secondary/substitute strike force. The F-16s provided to the PAF were configured with some top notch electronics but a lot of these were focused on the air to air threat and with the requirements of attacking some of the more heavility defended targets in India, the PAF was looking for something to provide precision guided capability as its F-16s then were still configured for dumb bombs and AGM-65s. Let this be cleae that it was the French that invited the PAF to look at the aircraft after some airshow talk regarding the ground attack capabilities of the Mirage 2000 and the ATLIS pod(The french love playing both sides for money). in 1986 a PAF team went to France to evaluate the fighter and found it very impressive but compared to the cost of inducting the aircraft via a vis further F-16s and a well established training base opted for the latter(Ironically the French did sell us the ATLIS in anticipation of a Mirage-2000 deal later on providing the PGM capability the PAF wanted in the first place)

By the time it got to the 90's the PAF realized that the F-16 would be difficult to keep in the air after the nuclear issue and good old Pressler. The Mirage 2000 was already purchased by India and Greece was at then taken as the best alternative to the F-16 in terms of offering the best package for strike operations along with an added air to air bonus. In addition, the PAF wanted the newer Mirage-2000-5 which was at that time the hottest thing in the market and unlike the F-16 block-50 it was something the PAF could purchase. It would have been a very good deal had the French and the corrupt in Pakistan played fair.


However, MK contends that the PAF should have given in to corruption and rot(the same thing MK decries is the problem in the first place with the PAF) they would have possessed the edge again which would have made it worth it.

Sounds like a good point, the PAF could have gotten its edge back with that move.. but when HONEST men opposed it, to the extent that people who are deserving of much more respect such as ACdre Sajjad Haider also support this decision along with many others; I am inclined to think the latter was better.

Lets come to post 9-11. The PAF needed a quick boost as right after 9-11 came Operation Parakaram and the looming Indian purchases of Su-30s. The first thing that any astute planner would do was to look at cost-effectiveness; the measure of which was to look at our existing F-16 fleet and how they could be brought up to full speed and hence provide the PAF with a powerful force with 1/5th of the cost of getting a new fighters. In Addition, additional F-16s and the Block-52s would then form the core of this new quick capability buildup whilst reducing the cost in logistics and training for the PAF. In addition, the opportunity allowed the PAF to get all that it required from the United States in terms of the hardware that goes into these aircraft was easily and readily available for purchase. It was the best choice to make for the PAF in terms of an already existing capability. Contrary to the spurious reasons given above, the F-16 upgrade and Block-52 was coming to bolster that equipment base of the PAF no matter what

Where the Mirage-2000 came in is where we get another of MK's rants regarding the JF-17 and why the Gripen was better. The JF-17 was a no brainier after pressler and I have already written on why it was always the straight forward option on ANOTHER of MK's rant threads(not the first one he has put on the topic, they repeat after every few months to get the uninformed youngsters going like those in Zaid Hamid's speeches)
Please see here.
JF 17 is The Wrong Omnirole Aircraft For PAKISTAN | Page 9

The PAF still wanted a deep strike aircraft to augment the F-16 for the same reasons they did in the 80's. IDEAS 2000 had just happened and Pakistan's coffers were booming(supposedly) with everyone trying to sell stuff to Pakistan. The Swedes were trying to sell the Gripen as part of the Erieye package but the PAF was not interested in another Air Defence fighter with secondary air to ground capability because that is what the JF-17 was for. It wanted a strike fighter to work alongside the F-16 as the main offensive(KUFR!, SHIRK!.. PAF is defensive!) force in its war plans against India. The mirage-2000 fit the bill well as the PAF was familiar with it and already had an induction plan worked out; however, the French were trying to push the Rafale instead which the PAF(regardless of its budget) could not afford at the prices the French were offering it at and more importantly the numbers the PAF wanted the aircraft in(As a clear indication, the PAF could only afford 18 Rafale's when it wanted at least two squadrons of this secondary fighter).At the end, the French would not budge and the PAF was not going to dish out that much for the Rafale. The final nail in this particular induction came with the 2005 Earthquake and the PAF budget shrank.

Now I will add a more recent piece of history that is relevant to this and is based off real world news you all are much more familiar with unlike the Fox news report in the opening post. As the Earthquake kicked in and the budget shrank, the PAF fell back to its alternative option which was the Chengdu J-10. They were convinced that given the Frankenstein of electronics that the PAF has gotten good at, along with the addition of bigger drop tanks that CAC had promised; the PAF might be able to get a pretty decent strike fighter out of the J-10 that would give it somewhat the capability that it wanted to fulfill with the Mirage-2000. This kept in earnest and many of you are familiar with this story but not the origins of it, but all of you are familiar with Mr 90% and his utter destruction of our economy, and with it the PAF's plans.

At the end, like the previous three threads MK; I have no idea what it is with you as of lately with the incoherent rants. But I can only think of one thing, and here you are exactly how Robin Williams(god rest is soul) described John McCain.at 4:45.

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[ziaulislam]

out of lack of money and common sense.
tested and proven in similar scenario before multiple times int he past.
the most recent one being the Swedish-soviet scenario

in end if someone thinks that buying 40 odd high tech planes would have been better than operating indigenous 200 decent fourth gen plans, than they should know this stragedy has been employed in the past and has failed

anyway mastan sahab obsession is rivaling that of our nishan101 brother

 

[syedali73]

A simple yes or no would have sufficed. Thanks!



There have been some rumors, and maybe Mastan Sahab has some concrete info, I on the other hand do not. And the issue I have with the JH7B is the fact that it's an old design, despite the new AESA radar.

Now like I said earlier, I don't know what the Chinese have done with it, in it's latest incarnation. Secondly compared to a J11, which aircraft has more scope for improvements / up-gradations?

These, and plenty more questions which require not only serious technical details, but people who have actually flown them. As far as I know, there isn't a single type of a/c in the Chinese inventory in which PAF pilots aren't well versed in.

Nonetheless the glaring gap in capability does remain.

Now what I would like to know is ball park figures of J11 & JH7B, anyone?

It is all about what is available to us. Yes, J-11 is relatively a newer, far batter, and upgradable a design but can we have it? Will Russians (under Bharat's influence) allow that to happen? JH-7B will give PAF two things, range, and huge payload to deliver. A JH-7B armed with 4 ASMs, two BVR-AAMs, and two WVR-AAMs, with ECM pod and AESA will be a formidable system. My two cents.