PAF's Defensive Doctrine---Out of Ignorance---Out of Incompetence Or What?

[MastanKhan]

Just to add in this Zardari saga, he did the same thing in the JF-17 deal. I hope you guys remember that the first batch was late due to the late signing of the loan agreement. He made something around 50-100$ Million in this deal as without his share he was not agreeing to the loan agreement. Just like before this time he was sitting on the file rather then his wife this time.



Yaar JH-7 is a deep strike bomber. Its not a good dog fighter. Its design is based around the concept for a ground attack fighter. And then the question of it being dual engine, which if added in numbers will result in a huge infrastructure prb.

Its easy to say induct this and that, but its just that, practically lot of factors come into play.

Hi,

Let me ask you this---how many different kinds of rifles and handguns do you have in your household---how about in your clan----. Is everyone carrying the same because it is easy to maintain or is there a variety.

Sometimes---I can wake the dead and get them out of their graves to come out here and post.

No one is saying that the JH7B is a good fighter----. But it is considered as an excellent strike aircraft---so much so that it would be the primary aircraft of china to lead strike missions against U S navy by Chinese if needed.

I have written this many a times in my posts----but seems like---when some people see my posts that goes against their grain of thought---they start seeing red and don't read any further---.

To have a good defense and offence---keeping in view the geography---you don't have to match the number of aircraft that the enemy has---but you have to have some that can meet the minimum criteria of taking the battle to the enemy---this mindset has always been there in the history of warfare---.

If paf could operate the worthless twin engine A5 fantan---the Jh7B should not be an issue----.

As for education and welfare----you need to stop corruption and not the defense spending---.

During my visit to Multan a year and a half ago---I learnt that the district education officer sold 50000 school book packages donated for poor children to those running a junkyard----KABARYIA----.

The issue of education is not related to defense spending but to the corrupt mindset of the Pakistanis---whose primary mantra is cheat---steal------loot and plunder.

As for the Yemen issue-----the enemy has succeeded in its first goal---ie---by driving a wedge between Pakistan and Saudi arabia and emirates---by dangling a carrot in front of Pakistan---the gas pipeline.

Pakistan was premature in assuming that everything was a go---now that they are learning that it may be around 5 years in the future. Iran suckered Pakistan into a honey money trap and Pakistan fell into it.

For me---the true character of Pakistan came into focus during this crisis---. For the friends that helped it thru thick and thin----Pakistan refused to help back in their time of need.

This was Pakistan's moment to share the proverbial piece of bread with its hungry friend---. But as they say---it is the true face of friends that shows up during times of need---desperation and crisis. And the true face of Pakistan was very ugly----.

Did Britain say no to USA when it wanted to invade Iraq---or Afghanistan----that thought never even came up---it was yes, yes and yes. Are they facing the consequences---absolutely----but would that change things in the future---absolutely not.

As I stated in my thread on 'Yemen'----Pakistan should have asked for a price for its indulgence and let the partners say no----. What if they had said yes to the offer---like a 50 or a 100 billion dollars partnership and no intervention on Gwadar.

The Iran deal from the pipeline would look like peanuts---secondly---iran had to sell oil to china---and there was no other way but the pipeline.

 

[araz]

Sir,

Address me directly---. Talk strategy---game plan execution----and technical issues----otherwise stop the BS.

Your post---it has no head or tail----it has no beginning----no sequence to it.

You need to use your brain. My post is clear.strategically and numerically competing mano a mano is not possible for PAF. The supremacy of technology requires money which you won't have till you improve your economy. This is why the enemy is causing chaos inside your country. No safety no influx of foreign investment.
On the political front you had the lovely Mr 10% established iñ a seat of honour as his equally lovely wife would have been a much more difficult proposition though equally corrupt but not as blackmailable as Mr 10%. So whatever resources were gained were lost in those 5 years due to masterly inactivity, rampant corruption and basically doing nothing.
The bottom line is we have not got the resources to compete with India. We need to utilize these relatively quiet years to build our industrial base to generate resources for the battles ahead.
Oh and why are you even bothering to respond to someone who has always been a nobody in your books. Go talk to someone who is somebody.

 

[MastanKhan]

You need to use your brain. My post is clear.strategically and numerically competing mano a mano is not possible for PAF. The supremacy of technology requires money which you won't have till you improve your economy. This is why the enemy is causing chaos inside your country. No safety no influx of foreign investment.
On the political front you had the lovely Mr 10% established iñ a seat of honour as his equally lovely wife would have been a much more difficult proposition though equally corrupt but not as blackmailable as Mr 10%. So whatever resources were gained were lost in those 5 years due to masterly inactivity, rampant corruption and basically doing nothing.
The bottom line is we have not got the resources to compete with India. We need to utilize these relatively quiet years to build our industrial base to generate resources for the battles ahead.
Oh and why are you even bothering to respond to someone who has always been a nobody in your books. Go talk to someone who is somebody.

Hi,

You brought my name up---I did not----you made the statement that with the wave of a hand my comments are neutered---you stated that you have given explanation and that should suffice----. Please don't get upset at my clarification of what I think about that 'casual dismissal'----.

Who is comparing mano a mano----. We only need a X numbers to their X + X-----.

Off course----india does realize that we need time---and that is what it won't give---it will push and push till we reach a breaking point----.

The Yemen commitment was worth 50 billion dollars plus----if put forward correctly.

 

[al_asad_al_mulk]

economy..
if we have enough money ther will be no Indian, Hindutsaan, Bharat next day even Israel ...And forward who is bloody uncle sam....

 

[Indus Falcon]

economy..
if we have enough money ther will be no Indian, Hindutsaan, Bharat next day even Israel ...And forward who is bloody uncle sam....

This is why you have no money, +/-$70bn debt and buffoons in the Govt and National / Provincial Assemblies!

 

[al_asad_al_mulk]

if Saudis have brain they should finance us (military) with in five years no threat to Saudi, a free Palestine and Free Kashmir a province of Pak enjoying good relations with Khalistan and many more micro nations but no Baharat

 

[araz]

Hi,

The Yemen commitment was worth 50 billion dollars plus----if put forward correctly.

And you think we said no and nothing has happened since. This is where all of you are wrong.
Remember the post 9/11 scenario and how we suffered inspite of the 15 billion infusion into our economy. Did we learn nothing from it?
What has been done is remarkably suave. A No on the surface followed by a quiet visit apparently to placate but actually with a firm plan of action and limits as to where we will and will not act. Rest assured the angle has been covered and more importantly the idiotic fanatics placated for the moment. This is what people have failed to understand.
As to 50 billion $ you can guess away . For what it is worth I fully accept we are bad at negotiating. However on this occasion things have been dealt with differently and it is showing.
Araz

 

[MastanKhan]

And you think we said no and nothing has happened since. This is where all of you are wrong.
Remember the post 9/11 scenario and how we suffered inspite of the 15 billion infusion into our economy. Did we learn nothing from it?
What has been done is remarkably suave. A No on the surface followed by a quiet visit apparently to placate but actually with a firm plan of action and limits as to where we will and will not act. Rest assured the angle has been covered and more importantly the idiotic fanatics placated for the moment. This is what people have failed to understand.
As to 50 billion $ you can guess away . For what it is worth I fully accept we are bad at negotiating. However on this occasion things have been dealt with differently and it is showing.
Araz

Hi,

We suffered because we fckd up----. Because muslims don't do suicide bombings---because muslims don't kill children---because islam does not teach us to do that----because this--because that---and all the because excuse----.

The only bright thing about a Pakistani civilian is---to find utmost and extreme ways of corruptness. Vision for the welfare of the country is for the blind----understanding the changing environment of the world is for the blind---understanding the imminent levels of oncoming threat is for the blinds---recognizing the difference between a friend or a foe is for the blind.

What we did not learn was that in adverse conditions you need to stand together---the enemy and the terrorist already has a long play agenda---it already knows how to drive a wedge in relationship between two friendly countries----it already knows how to manipulate the situation to its own agenda---.

The enemy is not only india but iran as well-----. Iran knows very well how to manipulate Pakistan----dangle the carrot of oil pipeline----flash some new money in front of the Pakistanis and they will sell their souls and they will sell their old friends as well.

Just by admitting that you were not good negotiators is not enough---the good thing for those who did not negotiate good and those who could not convey the message to the public and made them understand would rather HANG themselves---to show their shame for their sins----or basically commit SEPUKU----to cleanse the filth of the soil of the nation.

 

[Humble Analyst]

We have to applaud PAF to come up with JF 17 so we have plane which is economical under the economical situation, can fill a lot of gaps and mostly is sanction proof. On the other hand PAF needs to come out of its comfort zone of having only two main single engine fighters. I am sure they are aware of the restrictions of F16 and JF17 against Indian air force. There was a time (1960s) Pakistan had qualitative edge over Indian Air Force whereas India had quantitative advantage. Now India enjoys both especially after the induction of Rafael. Pakistan relies heavily on upgrades and tactics developed to counter superior Aircraft. So we are already on defensive and it is not a good position to be.
PAF has to come out of its comfort zone and Army needs to understand the importance of Air Force and should help in allocating of funds by defense ministry and help Air Force. A good step will be to appoint Joint chief of Staff from Air Force, Navy and Army alternately.

 

[araz]

Hi,

We suffered because we fckd up----. Because muslims don't do suicide bombings---because muslims don't kill children---because islam does not teach us to do that----because this--because that---and all the because excuse----.

The only bright thing about a Pakistani civilian is---to find utmost and extreme ways of corruptness. Vision for the welfare of the country is for the blind----understanding the changing environment of the world is for the blind---understanding the imminent levels of oncoming threat is for the blinds---recognizing the difference between a friend or a foe is for the blind.

What we did not learn was that in adverse conditions you need to stand together---the enemy and the terrorist already has a long play agenda---it already knows how to drive a wedge in relationship between two friendly countries----it already knows how to manipulate the situation to its own agenda---.

The enemy is not only india but iran as well-----. Iran knows very well how to manipulate Pakistan----dangle the carrot of oil pipeline----flash some new money in front of the Pakistanis and they will sell their souls and they will sell their old friends as well.

Just by admitting that you were not good negotiators is not enough---the good thing for those who did not negotiate good and those who could not convey the message to the public and made them understand would rather HANG themselves---to show their shame for their sins----or basically commit SEPUKU----to cleanse the filth of the soil of the nation.

I leave it upto the readers. Read this post and my post. Tell me how to respond as I dont!!!. Mastan Khan you have used words but said nothing of value. You have hidden behind a veil of verbosity. You either did not read my post or did not comprehend it at all. Where in my posts have I taken the side of Iran? Iam no admirer of present day Iran. I really dont know what to say to this post of yours. And you accuse me of making a post without anty head or tail. Man you have nothing left to ramble on about. Enough said I am not wasting anymore time here. You can play the king of this jungle and have your admirers doting over you. I am done!!!

 

[MastanKhan]

I leave it upto the readers. Read this post and my post. Tell me how to respond as I dont!!!. Mastan Khan you have used words but said nothing of value. You have hidden behind a veil of verbosity. You either did not read my post or did not comprehend it at all. Where in my posts have I taken the side of Iran? Iam no admirer of present day Iran. I really dont know what to say to this post of yours. And you accuse me of making a post without anty head or tail. Man you have nothing left to ramble on about. Enough said I am not wasting anymore time here. You can play the king of this jungle and have your admirers doting over you. I am done!!!

Hi,

The separation technique is very evident on National geographic-----where you see a pack of hunters or a single hunter target one animal and then they pursue to separate it from the herd---which ultimately lead to an easy kill.

Same is the case with Pakistan now----those who have targeted Pakistan---have started to separate it from its herd---.

Attack insurgency in Yemen is an attack on the flank of Pakistan----eve though it is a bit farther away---but still it is a flank---. From the flank---they will wing out to saudia and emirates---thus dividing the three---two on one side---one on the other side---.

The two busy in their battle---the third on its own---. Plus an ill will amongst the two---ie---saudia and emirates---.

So---the first phase of the plan is completing now---.

What is the most fearsome cause of death in MEN-----colon rectal cancer---prostrate cancer---both curable if caught in time---but tell me---how many men wanted to have their an-al cavity probed by a finger and a probe----.

Not admitting to the fact that our own could do terrorist activity against our soldiers and children---is like not letting the doctor put a finger up your ar-se----. First you don't want to be probed---secondly the smell of your own sh-it is terrible as well.

What has happened in Yemen is like a colon cancer for pakistan---just because a person does not want to be examined---it does not mean the cancer would go away----.

The cancer ever goes away---unless removed in a timely manner and given the right kind of radiation dosage.

 

[Indus Falcon]

We have to applaud PAF to come up with JF 17 so we have plane which is economical under the economical situation, can fill a lot of gaps and mostly is sanction proof. On the other hand PAF needs to come out of its comfort zone of having only two main single engine fighters. I am sure they are aware of the restrictions of F16 and JF17 against Indian air force. There was a time (1960s) Pakistan had qualitative edge over Indian Air Force whereas India had quantitative advantage. Now India enjoys both especially after the induction of Rafael. Pakistan relies heavily on upgrades and tactics developed to counter superior Aircraft. So we are already on defensive and it is not a good position to be.
PAF has to come out of its comfort zone and Army needs to understand the importance of Air Force and should help in allocating of funds by defense ministry and help Air Force. A good step will be to appoint Joint chief of Staff from Air Force, Navy and Army alternately.

I feel this time around, the Army has to be more proactive and get the funds for PAF

 

[Indus Falcon]

Hi,

The separation technique is very evident on National geographic-----where you see a pack of hunters or a single hunter target one animal and then they pursue to separate it from the herd---which ultimately lead to an easy kill.

Same is the case with Pakistan now----those who have targeted Pakistan---have started to separate it from its herd---.

Attack insurgency in Yemen is an attack on the flank of Pakistan----eve though it is a bit farther away---but still it is a flank---. From the flank---they will wing out to saudia and emirates---thus dividing the three---two on one side---one on the other side---.

The two busy in their battle---the third on its own---. Plus an ill will amongst the two---ie---saudia and emirates---.

So---the first phase of the plan is completing now---.

What is the most fearsome cause of death in MEN-----colon rectal cancer---prostrate cancer---both curable if caught in time---but tell me---how many men wanted to have their an-al cavity probed by a finger and a probe----.

Not admitting to the fact that our own could do terrorist activity against our soldiers and children---is like not letting the doctor put a finger up your ar-se----. First you don't want to be probed---secondly the smell of your own sh-it is terrible as well.

What has happened in Yemen is like a colon cancer for pakistan---just because a person does not want to be examined---it does not mean the cancer would go away----.

The cancer ever goes away---unless removed in a timely manner and given the right kind of radiation dosage.

All is not lost, good men are still trying to do damage control. Pray that they succeed.

 

[MastanKhan]

I leave it upto the readers. Read this post and my post. Tell me how to respond as I dont!!!. Mastan Khan you have used words but said nothing of value. You have hidden behind a veil of verbosity. You either did not read my post or did not comprehend it at all. Where in my posts have I taken the side of Iran? Iam no admirer of present day Iran. I really dont know what to say to this post of yours. And you accuse me of making a post without anty head or tail. Man you have nothing left to ramble on about. Enough said I am not wasting anymore time here. You can play the king of this jungle and have your admirers doting over you. I am done!!!

Hi,

And in post #190 where did I say you support iran or take side with it---.

Araz---if it is beyond you to understand what I am saying---just admit it and move away----. You are just trying to hit your head against the wall trying to understand it----.

It is simple---if you cannot comprehend it----it is your problem----I cannot make you understand---your limitations are your information base and ability to understand---.

I re-read post #190 3 times and I did not say that you take side of Iran----. So---either I am losing my eye sight----or you have a problem with comprehension.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

@MastanKhan
Sir,
For a while I have been reading your posts regarding long range heavy fighters that PAF should procure. For this you have been strongly in favor of the JH-7. It is no doubt a very good aircraft and with some further improvements it could be made into the ultimate JH-7, however this upgrade would be its last. This might be good till 2030 at the most which gives PAF a safe operational life of lets assume it is delivered today to be 14 years. Unfortunately this is not the case, the reality is that PAF modifications would take around 1-2 years and then the orders would be placed.

The delivery would only depend on the numbers that have been ordered, a reasonable choice of PAF would be around 60 so that the costs remain some what low. The final aircraft would be delivered withing 2-3 years after the final contract has been signed.

This is about 5 years from now bringing its operational life to around 9 years. Can this aircraft be cost productive within this short period?

There are other options that can be looked upon as a suitable medium - heavy category with the limited resources of PAF for a longer or similar time frame.
The Ideal aircraft for PAF is to procure is the F-16 Block 60, however PAF may look to get another 36 - 54 F-16 Block 52's to do a similar role.

Now there are options of getting brand new or old aircraft...It is quite possible that PAF might be considering the Greek F-16's or the Iraqi ones.

USA would be willing to provide PAF the necessary aircraft because they know that if they do not then the conventional warfare would not be an option. In the case of war theoretically Pakistan may fire an unconventional weapon just after a the very first shorts have been fired leading to an uncontrollable situation.
This is also the very reason Russia and China are at odds with the policies of USA of not providing enough conventional weapons to Pakistan.

Now considering other options that are available to PAF are the Russian SU-35's, we all know that this aircraft can be further modified to be at par with the PAK-FA and can last till atleast 2040-2050 which is a very decent life span.

China is unable to provide a similar aircraft that could last till 2040-2050 till the J-31's are ready which is about 2019. However China can provide interim aircraft like the JF-17's which can ease the load of F-16's. However PAF needs to replace not just the F-7's but also the Mirrage III/V's would seriously limit the up-gradation process considerably.

Turkey is also hoping PAF would seriously be considering The Turkish Fighter X but they know it would not be available till 2022. They do have some older F-16A's that might be put on offer once their F-35's are delivered within the next few years.

If we consider to be Pakistani's then the best option is to avail the Russian option as that is going to enhance the production capabilities. Later on when PAF looks for a replacement of F-16 then consider the best 5th Gen fighter available at that time.