PAF: Why a few "advance and expensive" aircrafts make sense

[Cash GK]

It makes sense to me but seeing many experts here, perhaps they can shed better light.

If we opt for say F15 stealth eagles, SU-35 and whatnot in few numbers, say 30, it can provide great cover for our JF17s in large numbers.

For example, the expensive jets with better radar range, able to see target and shoot before JF17, it can soften the target and also guide the smaller jets.

We can't afford 100 expensive jets, but it doesn't make sense either to get say 400 JF17 who are destroyed before they can see enemy jets. Something like 30 F15s + 200 JF17 is better than say 300 JF17 by itself.

What do you guys think?

By F15s or SU-35 I don't mean they're the best out there. My emphasize is on them being more capable of having better radar, range and weapons system. If tomorrow China and US fights, US will utilize its 200 F22 first before sending say 1000 F16 (or whatever lower tier air superiority aircraft they have).

defending mulitibillions trade routs needs good toys bro.pakistan is growing and we need to have best toys with us.. becouse no nation can win with out weapons .we have to ask them much more then that. becuse it is time now we have to dictate terms. I will ask them if I am in Islamabad office for joint development tech or send our engineers to study there and get traind

 

[araz]

defending mulitibillions trade routs needs good toys bro.pakistan is growing and we need to have best toys with us.. becouse no nation can win with out weapons .we have to ask them much more then that. becuse it is time now we have to dictate terms. I will ask them if I am in Islamabad office for joint development tech or send our engineers to study there and get traind

If toys could win you wars Yhe emaraati and Saudis would have been leaders of the world. It is not just about toys. It is much more than that. Let us be honest with ourselves we are not even one nation yet but 5-6 ethnicities and decisions at many levels are made depending on who you areand where you come from. Low education rates, very poor infrastructure, lack of cohesive and comprehensive planning, absebce of law order and justice and rampant corruption. These are worse enemies of Pakistan and more than all the arms in the world we need to get rid of these. If we succeed in doing this we will have a nation which is proud andcertain of its direction and destiny. Only then will we succeed. Have we learnt nothing from our history and our leader Mohammad SAW. How can an orphan child change the destiny of a nation by showing exemplary resolve in front of adversity. This is what we need to learn and relearn.
A

 

[Cash GK]

If toys could win you wars Yhe emaraati and Saudis would have been leaders of the world. It is not just about toys. It is much more than that. Let us be honest with ourselves we are not even one nation yet but 5-6 ethnicities and decisions at many levels are made depending on who you areand where you come from. Low education rates, very poor infrastructure, lack of cohesive and comprehensive planning, absebce of law order and justice and rampant corruption. These are worse enemies of Pakistan and more than all the arms in the world we need to get rid of these. If we succeed in doing this we will have a nation which is proud andcertain of its direction and destiny. Only then will we succeed. Have we learnt nothing from our history and our leader Mohammad SAW. How can an orphan child change the destiny of a nation by showing exemplary resolve in front of adversity. This is what we need to learn and relearn.
A

well you have taken it wrong. I give you the example of world resent and past super powers. how they built their trade with their strong navy and army. I give you US and Israel agreement in 1945. I am going to qoute their priminister. she said I had no suport from my cabinet for agreement with Us to buy weapons. becouse we did not have the funds. but I did that agreement after reading life of MUhammed(PBUH)'s life.when prophet was in his last time.he did not have enough food in HIs home but on wall HE had 7sowds.those were the.muslim builted great kingdom.and luk at Israel what they have achived. Othman BRitish romans. they have done this in history. I am not againt schools and universities. infact I am running my charity school last 12 years. birdy we need strong shadow upon us. in under that we can raise our nation.

 

[Humble Analyst]

SU-35 will also make it easy for us to get more new F-16 from USA. SU-35 is needed two squadrons will be enough to deter any Indian threat.

What we may get is besides the point, but we need at least 3 if not 4 squadrons. One for Karachi, one Gwadar coverage and 1 each for Central and Northern areas

 

[gambit]

It makes sense to me but seeing many experts here, perhaps they can shed better light.

If we opt for say F15 stealth eagles, SU-35 and whatnot in few numbers, say 30, it can provide great cover for our JF17s in large numbers.

For example, the expensive jets with better radar range, able to see target and shoot before JF17, it can soften the target and also guide the smaller jets.

We can't afford 100 expensive jets, but it doesn't make sense either to get say 400 JF17 who are destroyed before they can see enemy jets. Something like 30 F15s + 200 JF17 is better than say 300 JF17 by itself.

What do you guys think?

By F15s or SU-35 I don't mean they're the best out there. My emphasize is on them being more capable of having better radar, range and weapons system. If tomorrow China and US fights, US will utilize its 200 F22 first before sending say 1000 F16 (or whatever lower tier air superiority aircraft they have).

There must be a balance for what you are talking about.

What you are advocating is essentially a 'special operations' force inside the PAF that consists of technologically elite aircrafts and pilots specially trained to use them to their maximum technological potential.

There are many problems, from doctrines to tactics to logistics, for what you ask, and you cannot use other 'special operations' forces in other countries as template simply because of the uniqueness of your potential conflicts and the limited availability of your hardware.

Take logistics, for example, which includes maintenance and manpower.

Say you buy 500 FXS-1000 fighters. We all know the larger the purchase, the better the long term deals for parts and manufacturer support. But if you buy just 50 because of your budgetary constraints, the strategic reality requires you to purchase nearly the same level of parts and manufacturer support because the training and operations of your 'special air force' will be spread out over a far less quantity of hardware.

Reasonably speaking, a 3-1 pilots per aircraft ratio is acceptable. Very few countries are like US that can afford a 1-1 ratio, and even we do not have that consistently. But the larger the hardware availability, the better you are able to remove some hardware from 'front line' status, for whatever reasons, and even if you have a higher pilots to aircraft ratio, your training and combat ready status will not be adversely affected. This is the task of the squadron commander and his operations officer -- to monitor proficiency -- and the more hardware available, the less problematic even with higher pilots to aircraft ratio.

When I was at MacDill, an F-16 training base, each squadron have about an average of 12-15 fighters on fully mission capable (FMC) status at any time. Assuming each jet's maintenance issues are solved within 12 hrs and on the ramp and not inside a hangar, we had as much as 10 pilots per jet. But that was a training environment. Each squadron have a mix of single and double seaters. We had a D model flown by an IP/student pair in the AM at the bomb range, then flown again by a different IP/student pair in the PM for a night air refueling training sortie.

For your 'special air force' inside the PAF, all your pilots must be fully trained by the time they compete and assigned to this special unit, which mean whenever a pilot fly, it will be a training sortie only in the sense that he is training to attack a target WITH the FSX-1000, not learning how to fly the FSX-1000. There is a difference. If you have a 1-1 ratio, you cannot fly the pilot every day. You will slowly kill him. But an idle asset in a special operations unit is more a wasted asset than in a 'normal' unit. So what would be your pilots to aircraft ratio ?

This is not to say that your idea is unworkable. Anything is workable if you put enough resources to it. There are plenty of publicly available literature on force ratio and they are highly technical, as in they involves a lot of statistical math.

http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/monograph_reports/MR1550/MR1550.ch3.pdf

These units simply cannot be cooked up overnight. Budgets are limited and once you buy the hardware, you pretty much have to use them somehow and some ways. But when the US does it, the idea is analyzed by the Pentagon leadership, civilian consultants ranging from think tanks finance specialists to other militaries, and the process literally take yrs before a decision 'yay-or-nay' is made.

 

[Arya Desa]

accha no problem. We will sell you our Tejas.

 

[Asli Lahori1]

accha no problem. We will sell you our Tejas.

Bohat Dhaney Wad! Are they still exist?

 

[Humble Analyst]

accha no problem. We will sell you our Tejas.

Thank you for the generous offer, we will prefer leasing them so we can have the maintenance done by HAL

 

[Viper0011.]

It makes sense to me but seeing many experts here, perhaps they can shed better light.

If we opt for say F15 stealth eagles, SU-35 and whatnot in few numbers, say 30, it can provide great cover for our JF17s in large numbers.

For example, the expensive jets with better radar range, able to see target and shoot before JF17, it can soften the target and also guide the smaller jets.

We can't afford 100 expensive jets, but it doesn't make sense either to get say 400 JF17 who are destroyed before they can see enemy jets. Something like 30 F15s + 200 JF17 is better than say 300 JF17 by itself.

What do you guys think?

You are over-exaggerating the SU's and -15's compared to future versions of the JFT. There is NO doubt that the SU-35 and F-15 are much superior platforms but the comparison of having 30 making SUCH a big difference and thinking 400 JFT's can be destroyed "before they can see the enemy" is VERY far fetched and untrue.

In fact, as of today, the range and modes of the JFT's radar is better than the -16's on paper. The range for sure is. But, I don't know the quality of the JFT"s radar and if its comparable to V-9 radars on Vipers. But on paper, JFT has more modes and range of the radar.

Plus the AESA would give a huge boost to the JFT. Don't take the JFT light. It isn't designed to fight with the SU-30 directly but it can send home any fighter in BVR as its the Radar, Avoinic and the Missile that do the BVR part. So the target can be an SU-30 or a Mig-25, the Missile doesn't go off the lock if it realizes its chasing after a SU-30. It still hits it!!

But generally speaking, YES, Pakistan needs the heavies and not 30. She needs around 80 of these. I'd think they'll start with 40's, get experience, build tactics and while the manufacturer comes up with upgrades, then they will get 20-40 more with more upgrades. Traditionally that's how PAF does things.

After 2020, you'll see about 25-30% of the PAF's fleet consisting of heavy, twin engine platforms. This whole financial struggle is till 2018 and then it ends VERY fast. But the dependence is that your current system, that has revived your economy, works the way it is.

 

[HAIDER]

China wants Pakistan to buy this plane. Chinese has maintenance infrastructure.

 

[Humble Analyst]

China wants Pakistan to buy this plane. Chinese has maintenance infrastructure.

Which Plane J11?

 

[HAIDER]

Which Plane J11?

SU35....Chinese already maintaining 117 engine and frame. Russian SU27 frames in chinese force for long time..

 

[war&peace]

There have been so many threads like this and one seems to be the least thought out once. I request the moderators to combine the threads.

 

[unleashed]

There were rumors about MI 35 that Pakistan gonna procure at least 40 units, but what happened?
We ended up with just 4.
And now you are talking about 80 units of SU 35, i hope this time PAF wouldn't go for just 8

@Viper0011.

There were rumors about MI 35 that Pakistan gonna procure at least 40 units, but what happened?
We ended up with just 4.
And now you are talking about 80 units of SU 35, i hope this time PAF wouldn't go for just 8

@Viper0011.

 

[New World]

There were rumors about MI 35 that Pakistan gonna procure at least 40 units, but what happened?
We ended up with just 4.
And now you are talking about 80 units of SU 35, i hope this time PAF wouldn't go for just 8

@Viper0011.

There were rumors about MI 35 that Pakistan gonna procure at least 40 units, but what happened?
We ended up with just 4.
And now you are talking about 80 units of SU 35, i hope this time PAF wouldn't go for just 8

@Viper0011.

in 80's PAF has planed to buy 110+ F-16 and the relation with US was all time high and there wasn't any resistance of any US allies to sell f-16 to Pak but PAF has just order only 40 and when those 40 was delivered than another order was placed for 70..

but in case of Russia, India is the main resistant force to stop planes to be sold to Pak.. we just order 4 mi-35 because we want to test the russia how they can withhold indian resistant and will russia be a good supplier etc.. if russia supplies spares without any hurdle than more order will be placed..