PAF vs IAF/INAA

[Hamza913]

The claim is often made that the IAF/INAA now has significantly more power as compared to PAF than it used to, but is that really the case?

First of all, we must understand why it is important for India to maintain such a claim. It is important for such a claim to be maintained because in the two wars where the PAF and the IAF have engaged, the PAF absolutely beat the crap out of the IAF:

USA - Aviation week - December 1968 issue

"For the PAF, the 1965 war was as climatic as the Israeli victory over the Arabs in 1967. A further similarity was that Indian air power had an approximately 5:1 numerical superiority at the start of the conflict. Unlike the Middle East conflict, the Pakistani air victory was achieved to a large degree by air-to-air combat rather than on ground. But it was as absolute as that attained by Israel.

Roy Meloni, American Broadcasting Corporation September 15, 1965

"Pakistan claims to have destroyed something like 1/3rd the Indian Air Force, and foreign observers, who are in a position to know say that Pakistani pilots have claimed even higher kills than this; but the Pakistani Air Force are being scrupulously honest in evaluating these claims. They are crediting Pakistan Air Force only those killings that can be checked from other sources."

Chuck Yeager, speaking about the 1971 Indo-Pak war in his autobiography

"The Pakistanis whipped their [Indians’] a**es in the sky, but it was the other way around in the ground war. The air war lasted two weeks and the Pakistanis scored a three-to-one kill ratio, knocking out 102 Russian-made Indian jets and losing thirty-four airplanes of their own. I’m certain about the figures because I went out several times a day in a chopper and counted the wrecks below."

Even during the Kargil War, where the PAF was not involved, the IAF still lost multiple aircraft either due to accidents or because of ground fire from Pakistani troops. Not only that, but the PAF itself has historically produced many great pilots, such as MM Alam, 8 pass Charlie, Saiful Azam, Sattar Alvi, etc. So one can clearly see why it is important for the IAF to act as if it has more of an edge over the PAF now than it used to.

However, for multiple reasons, this just isn't the case.

First of all, in 1965, the PAF was outnumbered roughly 5 times over by the IAF at the beginning of the war. Now, however, the IAF/INAA doesn't even outnumber the PAF at a 2:1 ratio. Even if one just trims it down to the number of fighter/attack aircraft each country has, the IAF/INAA still has about 740 as compared to the PAF's roughly 680 (I am including conversion trainers since these aircraft can be still be used for combat purposes with the same efficiency as their regular counterparts, with little reconfiguration needed). This means that since 1965, there has been a significant reduction in the numerical gap between the IAF/INAA and the PAF.

Indians may then point to the technological gap between the PAF and the IAF, but that's also problematic simply because of the fact that this tech gap has always existed. The PAF's F-86s were inferior to the IAFs MiG-21s, Hawker Hunters and Folland Gnats, and even the F-104 Starfighters had their issues, yet the PAF still managed to take out significantly more IAF planes than vice versa (side note, I find it funny that F-86s managed to take out MiG-21s, an aircraft India still keeps in service where as the F-86 was retired long ago). And it's not like the PAF's current technological capability is substantially inferior to that of the IAF/INAA, the PAF operates the block 52 F-16 (arguably the most potent fighter in the region), the non-block 52 F-16s have also been extensively upgraded (bringing 45 of them to roughly block 50 standard, where as the other 13 have been upgraded to ADF standard), with all being able to fire AIM-120 AMRAAMs, and the JF-17s are also being continuously upgraded and are able to fire lethal weaponry like the SD-10. Older 3rd gen aircraft have also been modernised, with the ability to fire modern missiles like Babur and Raad (which can even be fitted with nuclear warheads). Not only that, but since Pakistani aircraft would be assisted by AWACS when defending Pakistani airspace, it becomes quite evident that the PAF is more than capable of taking out any and all aircraft used by the IAF/INAA.

There are also many more things that give the PAF even more of a punch than some may claim. First of all, the PAF enjoys a much higher pilot to cockpit ratio. However, the IAF's pilot to cockpit ratio isn't just lower, it's less than 1. The IAF/INAA also has much more severe serviceability issues than the PAF, as well as a higher crash rate (this includes more modern IAF aircraft like the Su-30MKI and MiG-29, not just older ones like the MiG-23).

The PAF also knows Indian aircraft quite well. India's MiG-23s were also used by Afghanistan, and the PAF shot down multiple of them during the Cold War. India's MiG-21s have also been in IAF service for almost 50 years, and the PAF has shot them down multiple times, with vastly inferior aircraft such as the F-86 (which isn't even in PAF service anymore), and the Pakistani army has also done so with ground units, speaking of which, the Pakistani army also shot down a MiG-27 using ground fire during the Kargil War. The PAF has also trained with the PLAAF's Flanker variant (the J-11), with Pakistani pilots even obtaining the opportunity to fly Chinese Su-30s (both of these aircraft closely resemble India's Su-30MKI). The IAF, on the other hand, has a more limited experience with PAF aircraft (especially the JF-17).

And if one still doubts the capability of the PAF, they only need to look at what happened in February 2019. During that month, PAF aircraft not only successfully intercepted IAF aircraft on the 27th as they breached Pakistani airspace before they could hit their target in Pakistan, but the next day they also conducted their own strikes (successfully, might I add) in Indian territory, and shot down two Indian aircraft (a MiG-21 Bison and a Su-30MKI). Despite India sending Su-30MKIs, MiG-21 Bisons and Mirage-2000s with the support of advanced air defence systems, they not only failed to stop the Pakistani intrusion (which consisted only of JF-17s and Mirage ROSEs) but were also unable to inflict any damage upon Pakistani aircraft, where as the PAF was more than able to do the same (the MiG-21 Bison was shot down by one of the JF-17s returning from the mission, and the Su-30MKI by an F-16A/B from within Pakistani airspace, which also shows just how effective the MLU programme was at modernising these older F-16s).

The PAF also has many more modern achievements, for example, Pakistani F-16A/Bs have defeated Eurofighter Typhoons multiple times in training exercises (without a single loss).

In terms of future prospects, things are only looking better for the PAF. Pakistani pilots have already flown Rafales (India's latest acquisition, which are set to enter Indian service soon) and are as a result now very experienced with them. The next block of the JF-17 will also have an AESA radar, and likely have China's monstrously powerful PL-15 missile integrated into it. The PAF is also currently developing it's own 5th gen fighter (the programme is called Project Azm), and will likely purchase Chinese 5th gen fighters once they become available for export (which should be very soon). Turkey has also already agreed to further upgrade Pakistan's F-16 fleet.

Conclusion: It's quite clear just how capable the PAF is and will be at fighting the IAF/INAA, if a war were to ever break out.

Sources:

http://www.riazhaq.com/2009/07/demolishing-indian-war-myths-about.html

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1984/1984 - 0797.html?search=F-86 Pakistan

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/354120.stm

https://en.dailypakistan.com.pk/pak...own-5-indian-war-planes-remains-unbroken-987/

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/8-pass-charlie.277607/

https://timesofislamabad.com/20-Jan...t-down-israeli-mirage-in-1974-arab-israel-war

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistani-pilot-saiful-azam.199606/

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...lightglobal-world-air-forces-on-the-r-432247/

https://thediplomat.com/2015/04/the-indian-air-forces-big-problem-not-enough-pilots/

https://www.msn.com/en-xl/news/other/indian-air-force-in-a-bind/ar-BBUgYgD

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article14.html

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article2.html

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article14.html

https://quwa.org/2016/05/16/turkey-will-upgrade-pakistans-f-16s/

https://archive.is/20141124014336/h....com/2013/06/the-paf-mirage-rose-upgrade.html

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...ith-China/articleshow/7740592.cms?referral=PM

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/08/eurofighter_beaten_by_f16/

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/27-f...fts-inside-pakistani-airspace-dg-ispr.604031/

https://www.telegraphindia.com/indi...ning-dents-delhi-secrecy-argument/cid/1688562

@The Eagle @Windjammer @WAJsal @Oscar @Indus Pakistan @OsmanAli98 @Dewaneh @PAKISTANFOREVER @Waqas @Rusty @Pan-Islamic-Pakistan @war&peace @waraich66 @doorstar @Talwar e Pakistan @Path-Finder @ziaulislam @Samlee @Khafee @Dubious @Zarvan @Champion_Usmani @maximuswarrior @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @Azadkashmir @Sher Shah Awan @dexter @IbnAbdullah

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

The post is feel good post for pakistani kids---.

The conclusion is that why did the indians not come to fight---. What is their ulterior motive or goal in not utilizing their air resources to fight the air war---.

What made them not come up in the skies---?

 

[Trailer23]

Hi,

The post is feel good post for pakistani kids---.

The conclusion is that why did the indians not come to fight---. What is their ulterior motive or goal in not utilizing their air resources to fight the air war---.

What made them come up in the skies---?

I don't think it takes a Brain Surgeon or a Rocket Scientist to figure that one out. The answer is the obvious.

They didn't want History to repeat itself. And that is not a feel good answer. Its a fact.

 

[MastanKhan]

How about you actually read it rather than just bark your regular nonsense?

Hi,

I read it again---and my pov has not changed---

I don't think it takes a Brain Surgeon or a Rocket Scientist to figure that one out. The answer is the obvious.

They didn't want History to repeat itself. And that is not a feel good answer. Its a fact.

Hi,

Okay---you can feel good as well---.

But as for me---I would want to know what the real deal was---. What 'new' game are they after---.

 

[Trailer23]

But as for me---I would want to know what the real deal was---. What 'new' game are they after---.

Sounds more of a Conspiracy Theory rather than inquiry.

I don't think that THAT nation has any quality strategic thinkers which has clearly led to blunders after blunders.

Just think about it, post Pulwama - has India done anything that may have gone in its favor (and i'm not even talking about the PAF at this point)?

Post 27th Feb., they have been running around like headless chickens screaming 'F-16! F16!'

In their mind, they thought that this was going to be a weak Administration like PML-N & go on anther Surgical Strike knowing the Pakistan Military/PAF will not intervene. They were caught off guard & now they've been trying to cover their tracks & (coincidently) their asses too.

Is the IAF Weak, in number? No
Is the IAF Weak? Absolutely.

I know it may sound cliché, but Quality trumps Quantity.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Hi,


Hi,

Okay---you can feel good as well---.

But as for me---I would want to know what the real deal was---. What 'new' game are they after---.

my guess is
that it was discussed in a different thread where we talked extensively about the JF17/ medium weight sufficiently equipped and armed to achieve the goal of air defence and dominance over the hostile airforce
the change is ... the proof of concept of Chinese technology.

 

[Umar Nazir]

The claim is often made that the IAF/INAA now has significantly more power as compared to PAF than it used to, but is that really the case?

First of all, we must understand why it is important for India to maintain such a claim. It is important for such a claim to be maintained because in the two wars where the PAF and the IAF have engaged, the PAF absolutely beat the crap out of the IAF:

USA - Aviation week - December 1968 issue

"For the PAF, the 1965 war was as climatic as the Israeli victory over the Arabs in 1967. A further similarity was that Indian air power had an approximately 5:1 numerical superiority at the start of the conflict. Unlike the Middle East conflict, the Pakistani air victory was achieved to a large degree by air-to-air combat rather than on ground. But it was as absolute as that attained by Israel.

Roy Meloni, American Broadcasting Corporation September 15, 1965

"Pakistan claims to have destroyed something like 1/3rd the Indian Air Force, and foreign observers, who are in a position to know say that Pakistani pilots have claimed even higher kills than this; but the Pakistani Air Force are being scrupulously honest in evaluating these claims. They are crediting Pakistan Air Force only those killings that can be checked from other sources."

Chuck Yeager, speaking about the 1971 Indo-Pak war in his autobiography

"The Pakistanis whipped their [Indians’] a**es in the sky, but it was the other way around in the ground war. The air war lasted two weeks and the Pakistanis scored a three-to-one kill ratio, knocking out 102 Russian-made Indian jets and losing thirty-four airplanes of their own. I’m certain about the figures because I went out several times a day in a chopper and counted the wrecks below."

Even during the Kargil War, where the PAF was not involved, the IAF still lost multiple aircraft either due to accidents or because of ground fire from Pakistani troops. Not only that, but the PAF itself has historically produced many great pilots, such as MM Alam, 8 pass Charlie, Saiful Azam, Sattar Alvi, etc. So one can clearly see why it is important for the IAF to act as if it has more of an edge over the PAF now than it used to.

However, for multiple reasons, this just isn't the case.

First of all, in 1965, the PAF was outnumbered roughly 5 times over by the IAF at the beginning of the war. Now, however, the IAF/INAA doesn't even outnumber the PAF at a 2:1 ratio. Even if one just trims it down to the number of fighter/attack aircraft each country has, the IAF/INAA still has about 740 as compared to the PAF's roughly 680 (I am including conversion trainers since these aircraft can be still be used for combat purposes with the same efficiency as their regular counterparts, with little reconfiguration needed). This means that since 1965, there has been a significant reduction in the numerical gap between the IAF/INAA and the PAF.

Indians may then point to the technological gap between the PAF and the IAF, but that's also problematic simply because of the fact that this tech gap has always existed. The PAF's F-86s were inferior to the IAFs MiG-21s, Hawker Hunters and Folland Gnats, and even the F-104 Starfighters had their issues, yet the PAF still managed to take out significantly more IAF planes than vice versa (side note, I find it funny that F-86s managed to take out MiG-21s, an aircraft India still keeps in service where as the F-86 was retired long ago). And it's not like the PAF's current technological capability is substantially inferior to that of the IAF/INAA, the PAF operates the block 52 F-16 (arguably the most potent fighter in the region), the non-block 52 F-16s have also been extensively upgraded (bringing 45 of them to roughly block 50 standard, where as the other 13 have been upgraded to ADF standard), with all being able to fire AIM-120 AMRAAMs, and the JF-17s are also being continuously upgraded and are able to fire lethal weaponry like the SD-10. Older 3rd gen aircraft have also been modernised, with the ability to fire modern missiles like Babur and Raad (which can even be fitted with nuclear warheads). Not only that, but since Pakistani aircraft would be assisted by AWACS when defending Pakistani airspace, it becomes quite evident that the PAF is more than capable of taking out any and all aircraft used by the IAF/INAA.

There are also many more things that give the PAF even more of a punch than some may claim. First of all, the PAF enjoys a much higher pilot to cockpit ratio. However, the IAF's pilot to cockpit ratio isn't just lower, it's less than 1. The IAF/INAA also has much more severe serviceability issues than the PAF, as well as a higher crash rate (this includes more modern IAF aircraft like the Su-30MKI and MiG-29, not just older ones like the MiG-23).

The PAF also knows Indian aircraft quite well. India's MiG-23s were also used by Afghanistan, and the PAF shot down multiple of them during the Cold War. India's MiG-21s have also been in IAF service for almost 50 years, and the PAF has shot them down multiple times, with vastly inferior aircraft such as the F-86 (which isn't even in PAF service anymore), and the Pakistani army has also done so with ground units, speaking of which, the Pakistani army also shot down a MiG-27 using ground fire during the Kargil War. The PAF has also trained with the PLAAF's Flanker variant (the J-11), with Pakistani pilots even obtaining the opportunity to fly Chinese Su-30s (both of these aircraft closely resemble India's Su-30MKI). The IAF, on the other hand, has a more limited experience with PAF aircraft (especially the JF-17).

And if one still doubts the capability of the PAF, they only need to look at what happened in February 2019. During that month, PAF aircraft not only successfully intercepted IAF aircraft on the 27th as they breached Pakistani airspace before they could hit their target in Pakistan, but the next day they also conducted their own strikes (successfully, might I add) in Indian territory, and shot down two Indian aircraft (a MiG-21 Bison and a Su-30MKI). Despite India sending Su-30MKIs, MiG-21 Bisons and Mirage-2000s with the support of advanced air defence systems, they not only failed to stop the Pakistani intrusion (which consisted only of JF-17s and Mirage ROSEs) but were also unable to inflict any damage upon Pakistani aircraft, where as the PAF was more than able to do the same (the MiG-21 Bison was shot down by one of the JF-17s returning from the mission, and the Su-30MKI by an F-16A/B from within Pakistani airspace, which also shows just how effective the MLU programme was at modernising these older F-16s).

The PAF also has many more modern achievements, for example, Pakistani F-16A/Bs have defeated Eurofighter Typhoons multiple times in training exercises (without a single loss).

In terms of future prospects, things are only looking better for the PAF. Pakistani pilots have already flown Rafales (India's latest acquisition, which are set to enter Indian service soon) and are as a result now very experienced with them. The next block of the JF-17 will also have an AESA radar, and likely have China's monstrously powerful PL-15 missile integrated into it. The PAF is also currently developing it's own 5th gen fighter (the programme is called Project Azm), and will likely purchase Chinese 5th gen fighters once they become available for export (which should be very soon). Turkey has also already agreed to further upgrade Pakistan's F-16 fleet.

Conclusion: It's quite clear just how capable the PAF is and will be at fighting the IAF/INAA, if a war were to ever break out.

Sources:

http://www.riazhaq.com/2009/07/demolishing-indian-war-myths-about.html

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1984/1984 - 0797.html?search=F-86 Pakistan

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/354120.stm

https://en.dailypakistan.com.pk/pak...own-5-indian-war-planes-remains-unbroken-987/

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/8-pass-charlie.277607/

https://timesofislamabad.com/20-Jan...t-down-israeli-mirage-in-1974-arab-israel-war

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistani-pilot-saiful-azam.199606/

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...lightglobal-world-air-forces-on-the-r-432247/

https://thediplomat.com/2015/04/the-indian-air-forces-big-problem-not-enough-pilots/

https://www.msn.com/en-xl/news/other/indian-air-force-in-a-bind/ar-BBUgYgD

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article14.html

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article2.html

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article14.html

https://quwa.org/2016/05/16/turkey-will-upgrade-pakistans-f-16s/

https://archive.is/20141124014336/h....com/2013/06/the-paf-mirage-rose-upgrade.html

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...ith-China/articleshow/7740592.cms?referral=PM

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/08/eurofighter_beaten_by_f16/

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/27-f...fts-inside-pakistani-airspace-dg-ispr.604031/

https://www.telegraphindia.com/indi...ning-dents-delhi-secrecy-argument/cid/1688562

@The Eagle @Windjammer @WAJsal @Oscar @Indus Pakistan @OsmanAli98 @Dewaneh @PAKISTANFOREVER @Waqas @Rusty @Pan-Islamic-Pakistan @war&peace @waraich66 @doorstar @Talwar e Pakistan @Path-Finder @ziaulislam @Samlee @Khafee @Dubious @Zarvan @Champion_Usmani @maximuswarrior @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @Azadkashmir @Sher Shah Awan @dexter @IbnAbdullah

 

[alee92nawaz]

Hi,

The post is feel good post for pakistani kids---.

The conclusion is that why did the indians not come to fight---. What is their ulterior motive or goal in not utilizing their air resources to fight the air war---.

What made them come up in the skies---?

They are assessing their weaknesses and analyzing what we did. Meanwhile we are jumping up and down. I hope PAF is working on newer stuff

 

[Dil Pakistan]

 

[ziaulislam]

cost analysis was not in favourite, they will go back on drawing board and make it favourable next time while we tolerate a corrupt and a incompetent govts

 

[MastanKhan]

Sounds more of a Conspiracy Theory rather than inquiry.

I don't think that THAT nation has any quality strategic thinkers which has clearly led to blunders after blunders.

Just think about it, post Pulwama - has India done anything that may have gone in its favor (and i'm not even talking about the PAF at this point)?

Post 27th Feb., they have been running around like headless chickens screaming 'F-16! F16!'

In their mind, they thought that this was going to be a weak Administration like PML-N & go on anther Surgical Strike knowing the Pakistan Military/PAF will not intervene. They were caught off guard & now they've been trying to cover their tracks & (coincidently) their asses too.

Is the IAF Weak, in number? No
Is the IAF Weak? Absolutely.

I know it may sound cliché, but Quality trumps Quantity.

Hi,

Actually it is not the size of the dog that matters---but the fight in the dog that makes the difference---.

About quality---they have better quality aircraft than ours---. If we had their aircraft---we would have annihilated the enemy---.

The question stays---why did they turn tail---?

So---my question again is---what is Modi thinking---.

Is he expecting the F35's to be offered---???

my guess is
that it was discussed in a different thread where we talked extensively about the JF17/ medium weight sufficiently equipped and armed to achieve the goal of air defence and dominance over the hostile airforce
the change is ... the proof of concept of Chinese technology.

Hi,

Yessir---Chinese technology and Pakistani ingenuity---.

In minutes---the dreams came crashing down---that of the indians and those of the americans---.

Americans used to talk big about letting india lose on pakistan to straighten up pakistan---okay---now they know it won't happen---.

Then they had dreamed that their vishnu baby would wreak havoc on the chinese---and that dream has been cut short badly---.

Then there are the indians---suddenly---they can't find a place to hide their faces---indeed the world has turned Topsy Turvy within minutes for them---.

 

[waraich66]

PDF Ciber Gen. .....Good effort lol


Our F16 and JF fixed with BVR can kill IAF MIG 21 and SU 30 at 70 KM distance .IAF learnt good lesson on Feb 27 .

IAF never ever take risk to enter our air space again.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

PDF Ciber Gen. .....Good effort lol


Our F16 and JF fixed with BVR can kill IAF MIG 21 and SU 30 at 70 KM distance .IAF learnt good lesson on Feb 27 .

IAF never ever take risk to enter our air space again.

all they managed so far is torture and kill Pakistani prisoners and use state violence on Kashmiris

 

[waraich66]

all they managed so far is torture and kill Pakistani prisoners and use state violence on Kashmiris

Right , Indian can only make good movies and songs lol

Better India accept PAF as superior force and signed air defence agreement as NORAD.

But first thing first stop the human right violations in Kashmir.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Hi,

Actually it is not the size of the dog that matters---but the fight in the dog that makes the difference---.

About quality---they have better quality aircraft than ours---. If we had their aircraft---we would have annihilated the enemy---.

The question stays---why did they turn tail---?

So---my question again is---what is Modi thinking---.

Is he expecting the F35's to be offered---???



Hi,

Yessir---Chinese technology and Pakistani ingenuity---.

In minutes---the dreams came crashing down---that of the indians and those of the americans---.

Americans used to talk big about letting india lose on pakistan to straighten up pakistan---okay---now they know it won't happen---.

Then they had dreamed that their vishnu baby would wreak havoc on the chinese---and that dream has been cut short badly---.

Then there are the indians---suddenly---they can't find a place to hide their faces---indeed the world has turned Topsy Turvy within minutes for them---.View attachment 552841

I am glad I guessed right what you are pointing at.
as they say in Navy "steady as she goes"
our JF-17 program is progressing and Block 3 might be a new bench setter
where do we want to take it? will it still be JF-17 or become JF18? if its bigger in size to house the extra size weight of radar and missiles and will it be still the same engine? I lost track of WS 13. if its still on track to become the JF17 powerplant