PAF Vs IAF Command and Control Systems

[notorious_eagle]

Does your FC1 jet has any active data link with SAAB Erieye AEW&C, Or you F16's and Mirage rose have an active data link with ZDK Chinese AEW&C????

PAF is working towards developing a local network data, data linking every PAF asset through a central Ground Station. At current i am not aware of the status but in future they are definitely working on to data link all the assets together. No point of spending billions of dollars if you cant effectively employ them.

What kind of fighter escorts will Both kind of AEW&C have???

Whatever is available

And how do exactly Jam the Anti radiation Missile? R 172 is being modified to have passive radiation homing

You cannot jam a missile that is passive, but you can definitely jam the source before the missile is launched. Also the missile will be fired from a greater length, it reduces the probability of a kill as the AWAC can turn and escape the missiles kill range. This is what makes AWACS more lethal than a Ground Radar, it is not sitting static and can easily manuveur to adjust to the situation. Taking down an AWAC is a very complex task, something very contrary to what Mr. Darky is proposing.

 

[SQ8]

PAF is working towards developing a local network data, data linking every PAF asset through a central Ground Station. At current i am not aware of the status but in future they are definitely working on to data link all the assets together. No point of spending billions of dollars if you cant effectively employ them.



Whatever is available



You cannot jam a missile that is passive, but you can definitely jam the source before the missile is launched. Also the missile will be fired from a greater length, it reduces the probability of a kill as the AWAC can turn and escape the missiles kill range. This is what makes AWACS more lethal than a Ground Radar, it is not sitting static and can easily manuveur to adjust to the situation. Taking down an AWAC is a very complex task, something very contrary to what Mr. Darky is proposing.

No.. the MKI will win!!..
MKI! MKI!

On a more serious note.. passive systems that relay on emissions to guide themselves only need an alternate source of equivalent emissions.
Stick a towed decoy out that is emitting the same.. the passive seeker goes dumb for the decoy.

In case you are interested in reading a lot of overbloated ideas on killing High values assets and how the Russians and Chinese have found the sword of damocles..
read this for a little spice.
Hard Kill Counter-ISR Programs
Our friend DARKY here swears by it.

 

[DARKY]

Already seen the thread.

Maybe it didn't occur to you, but the missile is yet to be operational but you already passed the judgment that the Erieyes will be sitting duck infront of it. The farther the missile is, the lower the probability of it hitting its mark especially if the target is not sitting static and is being escorted with fighter planes. Another very important factor, the sheer jamming power an AWAC carries makes it very hard for a missile to lock on. Obviousally you didnt think about that, since your a fanboy . You just saw the range and the shiny new missile and went all GAGA over it.

But your right, this statement "And those multi dollar Erieye AEW&C systems would be sitting ducks....... In front of Novator K-172", definitely made me laugh. Infact, anyone who has decent knowledge about military aviation will be laughing after reading this statement.

It was developed in 1993 was modernized since 2001......still need any proof about its operational status??........let me add in case the air force have been testing these missiles since 2010 on target drones.......and air planes are being modified to carry about 4-6 of them........currently they can carry about 2-3......about the distance part we have something called guidance which differentiates a missile from a Rocket.......If I were to go by your statements then we would not have had BVR missiles........or BVR kills........Try jamming a missile Homing with passive seekers, artificial intellect...and using Infrared homing for the last 40 km.......Again its not a new missile to go gaga over it.

I have been on many other defense forums having very serious discussion over this missile and E-3 but this is 1st I came across someone laughing......good sense of Humor we have here is it.

You cannot jam a missile that is passive, but you can definitely jam the source before the missile is launched. Also the missile will be fired from a greater length, it reduces the probability of a kill as the AWAC can turn and escape the missiles kill range. This is what makes AWACS more lethal than a Ground Radar, it is not sitting static and can easily manuveur to adjust to the situation. Taking down an AWAC is a very complex task, something very contrary to what Mr. Darky is proposing.

Best of luck.......with Jamming Hybrid-ESA and AESA radars.......I won't name them as people here would jump at my throat.......and they would be coupled with SAP-14 and SAP-518 which have similar capabilities to their counterparts used on the growlers and prowlers......A dozen such aircrafts launching 2-3 x dozen such missiles at about a dozen different places.......under the cover of their own AWACS fleet which is arguably the best available in the world......with only China having a similar system.......and 1st time I have seen some body claiming that an turbo-prop aircraft of the size of erieye could maneuver and get out of the kill zone of missile which would have seekers homing on the target at around 4 mach.

Only if the Americans, Russians, French and Chinese were as smart as you they could've made an A-225 antanob laden with massive radars and jammers.....making them invincible.....and not spend billions on combat plane acquisition !!

Every complex task has a complex solution.......I have mentioned above a few for your complex task.....go through the threads again to find more.......and come up with a solution for my complex problem.......till then I won't post on this topic.....here!!

Thanks
DARKY

 

[DARKY]

No.. the MKI will win!!..
MKI! MKI!

On a more serious note.. passive systems that relay on emissions to guide themselves only need an alternate source of equivalent emissions.
Stick a towed decoy out that is emitting the same.. the passive seeker goes dumb for the decoy.

In case you are interested in reading a lot of overbloated ideas on killing High values assets and how the Russians and Chinese have found the sword of damocles..
read this for a little spice.
Hard Kill Counter-ISR Programs
Our friend DARKY here swears by it.

MKI, APA....and Kopp !!!!.......come up with something new

And about decoys......there won't be a single missile homing......I wonder what kind of decoy can emit such a high power signal comparable to an AWACS and......have such high infrared signature as well.

 

[SQ8]

MKI, APA....and Kopp !!!!.......come up with something new

And about decoys......there won't be a single missile homing......I wonder what kind of decoy can emit such a high power signal comparable to an AWACS and......have such high infrared signature as well.

Ill come up with something new when you do.

 

[Jango]

Here buddy, another pic from a different angle:

Plus if you can know how to use Google, do some searching and you will find out good articles about the PAF ADC, the there are certain PAF related videos where you can see video shots of this command centre on numerous occasions. Also, i do believe there is a separate video by PAF about its air defence activities, in which also this command centre was shown, even though that is a very old video showing the old command centre which at that time was in its own standard a state of the art one, and in the past few years PAF has upgraded this network with more hardware as well as software and the indigenous command and control system is now fully active for the past few months and is working perfectly and exceeded expectations.

there is a big Air Defence Centre in chaklala where there is a huge TV screen which has a map of pakistan on the wall, and the whole air movement is shown on it.

 

[Asian.Century]

Pakistani is C4i is the best in Central and South Asia.

 

[asad71]

The pragmatic father of PAF had undertaken many visionary schemes that has been paying dividend, and has been built upon later. One very practical item was laying cables deep underground connecting all airfields and radar stations.So PAF communication on ground is never jammed or compromised.

 

[asad71]

i don't understand. .. what are you trying to say... so with under ground cables radar stations can't be jammed or compromised? ??


but never won wars....

Read it again. I said jamming ground communication, ie, land line.

 

[Dazzler]

great thread @silent hawk keep posting..

Its achievement for them that all computers and projectors are working at same time

take your rant to some where else or get reported.

 

[assassin123]

Which radar systems does iaf use?

 

[kaku1]

Pakistani is C4i is the best in Central and South Asia.

View attachment 74037

So, you think India dont have that kind of systems. With all SIGINT and ELINT? What you talking about bro?

 

[Daedalus]

Indian Air force C4ISR capabilities - A year end round up

Beyond the accretion of new fighter and transport aircraft, it is the on-going digitization of the workings of the Indian Air force (IAF) that is the signature element of its transformation. Adopting information and communication technology (ICT) across the spectrum of its operations, the service is putting in place a new architecture for command, control, communications, computing, intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (C4ISR) that would make sure that there are no surprises from the enemy and that when bombs are dropped in anger they hit the targets they are actually meant to.

Keeping its lead in ICT initiatives over the Indian Army, IAF launched the first phase of a closed 3G cellular network called Air Force Cellular (AFCEL) in late October that seeks to both enhance communications security (COMSEC) as well as provide assured connectivity at all times. AFCEL is a WCDMA network that will ultimately enable voice, data, video streaming and file sharing between air warriors across India. Phase-I however provides such mobile connectivity only in the National Capital Region. The next phase will see its adoption across all of the IAF's stations as well as mobile unit. Indeed, in addition to a number of fixed AFCEL nodes, there will also be Mobile Base Transmitting Stations (MBTS) which will extend coverage to remote locations as well. . These nodes will facilitate a full IP network with stringent quality of service, high quality voice and of course data solutions. The system Integrator for AFCEL is HCL Infosystems with technology partners Alcatel Lucent India and the IAF's AFCEL Project Team. Once fully operational , IAF believes as reflected in the words of Air Chief Browne "that provision of this capability will keep our men and women connected to the Information Grid and ensure high situational awareness as well as greater synergy in Command and Control (C2) functions."



Tying in to IAF's new digitized communication network are ICT initiatives at maintenance command that will actually generate the data that will run through the system for effective control and deployment of war fighting capability. In early November, Wipro was handed an over Rs 900 crore contract by IAF to electronically monitor and automate the management of its fleet. Wipro which has won out in competition that also featured the likes of TCS, will provide an 'electronically captured dashboard sort of system which will replace the old system of manual logbooks' according to IAF officials. Ultimately as part of the multi-year project, IAF will set up 'an enterprise-wide, online maintenance management system covering configuration management, fleet planning and management, maintenance repair and overhaul and will enable precise mobilization of assets and real time command and control optimization. The e-maintenance system will eventually be implemented in more than 170 locations, covering nearly 600 IAF units.

These ICT initiatives essentially serve as a back end to AF-NET which has replaced the IAF's old main communication network set-up using tropo-scatter technology from the 1950s. Under AF-NET all major formations and static establishments have been linked through WAN and are accessible via data communication channels. Significantly, the nationwide programme was launched by the IAF in collaboration with private industry to link all field units using a dedicated satellite which will be launched in 2014.

AFNET incorporates the latest traffic transportation technology in the form of internet protocol (IP) packets over the network using multi-protocol label switching (MPLS). A large voice over internet protocol (VoIP) layer with stringent quality of service enforcement will facilitate robust, high quality voice, video and conferencing solutions. Now, the IAF's emerging Integrated Air Command and Control System (IACCS), an automated command and control system for AD operations will ride the AFNET backbone integrating all ground-based and airborne sensors, AD weapon systems and C2 nodes. The IACCS will consist of ten major nodes with each node having ADDCs under it which in turn will be continuously connected with both Air Staff HQ as well regional command HQs. These ten nodes will emerge out of the IAF's drive to both introduce network capable systems at existing sites as well as set up new AD sites in light of the evolving threat picture in the north and north east from China and Pakistan. Importantly, the IACCS will also bring AD coverage to the Southern peninsula.



The IACSS by 2015-17 will have under its purview a fully modernized fleet of early warning and electronic countermeasures (ECM) resistant radars. As of now the IAF's chief ground based radar assets are the THD-1955, 36D6 and the P-12/18 family and the indigenous INDRA-II. While these legacy assets have served the IAF well, their age means that system frequencies have likely been gauged by India's opponents who would have also developed relevant ECMs. Moreover though these systems have undergone some upgradation over the years aimed at enhancing their electronic counter countermeasures (ECCM) capabilities, their inherent upgradability itself is limited by the fact that they aren't really digital or software defined.

As such the IAF has begun to progressively induct contemporary jam-resistant radars with digital receiver and programmable signal processing. This means that the software defined back ends of these radars can re-programmed to keep ECCM capability up to date. The IAF is also introducing its first ground based active arrays in the form of the Arudra MPR boasts advanced digital processing technologies such as digital beam forming and programmable signal processing to fully exploit the capabilities of its S-band solid state active aperture that can detect and track fighter sized targets from more than 300 km away. The radar is also capable of both stand alone as well as network centric modes, although in the latter department Arudhra apparently offers extremely potent capabilities. Replacing the P-12/18 family is DRDO's Rohini 3D which has a range of around 150 kms for fighter sized targets been designed for mobility and survivability and is mounted on two high mobility TATRA vehicles with the power unit being in a third TATRA that hosts 2 X 125 kva generators. LRDE claims that the entire set up can be deployed or decamped in 30 minutes. Though a mechanically steered pulse Doppler array, Rohini's ECCM capability owing to its all-digital environment is noteworthy.



The advent of a serious air threat from China has meant that the IAF has had to move much more quickly on filling gaps in India's mountainous regions. This is being accomplished through the induction of a number of low level light weight radars of both French as well as Indian origin. Cognizant of the enormous difficulties in keeping round-the-clock radar coverage in mountainous areas, IAF is well into the process of bringing in 18 Aslesha Low level Light Weight Transportable radars (LLWTRs) of indigenous origin which as per DRDO is "a multifaceted ground based S-Band 3D LLWTR for deployment in diverse terrains like plains, deserts, mountain tops and high altitude regions and can also scan valleys". Interestingly this quadripod-mounted radar can operate in networked or stand-alone modes and features multiple Electronic Counter Counter Measures (ECCMs). Given its potency against even relatively low RCS targets such as UAVs, the Aslesha represents a quick way to provide coverage as well as extend the reach of the overall air defence 'network.'



However, true situational awareness in mountainous areas cannot be achieved without deploying airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) in numbers and this is exactly where the recently acquired IL-76 based PHALCONs are proving to be a game changer. The PHALCON's EL/M-2075 radar can detect low radar cross section (RCS) targets amidst background clutter from hundreds of kilometres away, 24 x 7 and under all weather conditions. Its AESA technology allows it to achieve superior target discrimination in comparison to mechanically steered arrays and also makes it less susceptible to interception and jamming. For instance track initiation by the EL/M-2075 is achieved in 2 to 4 seconds as opposed to the 20 to 40 seconds that is standard with legacy AWACS types sporting rotodomes housing mechanically steered arrays. Coupled with a state-of-the-art IFF, the PHALCON does seem to live up to its role as an airborne C2 asset. The IFF system incidentally also employs solid state phased array technology to perform interrogation, decoding, target detection and tracking while utilizing a monopulse technique to implement azimuth measurement. Connected to the PHALCON via the BEL link-2, the IAF's BVRAAM armed Su-30 MKIs can be reasonably expected to establish air superiority over sub-continental skies in a relatively short period of time. The PHALCON in any case will be a key element in the IACCS's cruise missile defence posture given its characteristics. At the moment two more PHALCONs are on order from Israel, but it is clear that more will have to be brought in given the Chinese Airforce's posture vis a vis India.

In the near future the PHALCON will be supplemented by three DRDO developed Embraer ERJ-145 based AEW&C which will operate in conjunction with the PHALCON. This indigenously developed system with its primary radar being an S-band AESA is expected to deliver features such as high performance tracking and priority tracking with reference to fighter sized targets. Besides the primary radar these modified ERJ-145s also house a secondary surveillance radar (SSR), ESM, CSM, mission communication system (MCS) consisting of SATCOM and data links (such as the Link-2) and a comprehensive self-protection suite (SPS). It is also noteworthy that the modified ERJ-145 used in this program is in-flight refuelling capable.

Satisfied with the first indigenous AEW&C project, the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) gave 'in principle' approval to DRDO to complete development of a much larger indigenous AEW & C system in the PHALCON class within a period of 84 months. Once developed this system, which naturally be based on an IL-76 sized aircraft will remove India's dependence on foreign sources for high end C2I operations and provide round the clock coverage of most of India's airspace. IAF sees itself operating at last 20 fixed wing early warning aircraft by the 2020s.

IAF is also bringing more aerostats equipped with the EL/M-2083 radar which is reported to be a derivative of the 'Green Pine' missile defence radar used in the Arrow anti-ballistic missile (ABM) system. The EL/M-2083 given its reported antecedents is probably a L-band phased array radar capable of search, acquisition as well as fire-control. It can acquire and track targets at both "high" and "low" altitudes, identify targets such as cruise missiles and unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) against background clutter. It also performs its scans electronically in both azimuth as well as elevation and does so out to a potential 500 km. A potential buy of up to a dozen such systems from foreign sources may be in the offing with more inductions once indigenous types like the Aerial Delivery Research and Development Establishment's (ADRDE's) in development 'Nakshatra' aerostat becomes available.

In addition, IAF seems to be finally progress in its bid to bring in nine 'special mission' jet aircraft, whose procurement was cleared by the Defence Acquisition Council in April this year. Two out of these nine aircraft are expected to perform a signals Intelligence (SIGINT) role while the rest will be configured for communications jamming (COMJAM), aerial survey, flaring and target towing. In the past, this particular tender had run into heavy weather due to cost escalation issues, but there are indications that it might just go through this time over. The chief contenders in the fray are joint offerings by IAI and Embraer on one hand and Hawker Beechcraft and Raytheon on the other.

Saurav Jha's Blog : Indian Air force C4ISR capabilities - A year end round up

 

[Storm Force]

I hope this clears up ANOTHER PAKISTANI MYTH about PAF having the best

 

[TOPGUN]

I hope this clears up ANOTHER PAKISTANI MYTH about PAF having the best

Nothing is a myth , nor do we or does your iaf have the best simple as that but what we have is good enough and I am sure so is yours call it a day rather then seeing whos dick is bigger.