PAF vs. IAF Analysis- Air Combat Over the Subcontinent

[rumi6]

PAF mirages better than IAF Mirage 2000s?? Could someone shed some light please?? And about BVRs, well I dont know much about it so not saying anything.

A Beyond Visual Range missile usually refers to an air-to-air missile that is capable of engaging at ranges beyond 20 nautical miles (37 km). This range has been achieved using dual pulse rocket motors or booster rocket motor and ramjet sustainer motor.

In addition to the range capability, the missile must also be capable of tracking its target at this range or of acquiring the target in flight. Systems in which a mid course correction is transmitted to the missile have been used.

Early air-to-air missile used semi active radar guidance, that is the missile used the radiation produced by the launching aircraft to guide it to the target. The latest generation of BVR missiles use a combination of semi-active and active radar.

The first such missiles were relatively simple beam riding designs that were soon replaced by Semi-active radar homing (SARH). This is where the launching aircraft's radar is "locked" onto the target in a Single Target Track (STT) mode, directing a radar energy at the target that the missile seeker can "see" as it reflects off the target. The radar antenna must "illuminate" the target until impact. Missiles like the Raytheon AIM-7 Sparrow and Vympel R-27 (NATO designation AA-10 'Alamo') home in on the reflected radiation, much like a Laser-guided bomb homes in on the reflected laser radiation. Some of the longest range missiles in use today still use this technology.

The first air-to-air missile to introduce a terminal active seeker of its own was the AIM-54 Phoenix carried by the F-14 Tomcat, which entered service in 1972. This relieved the launch platform of the need to illuminate the target until impact putting it at risk. The Phoenix and its associated Tomcat radar, the AWG-9 was capable of multiple track and launch capability, which was unique to the Tomcat/Phoenix until the advent of AMRAAM in 1991. Newer fire-and-forget type missiles like the Raytheon AIM-120 AMRAAM and the Vympel R-77 (NATO designation AA-12 'Adder') instead use an Inertial navigation system (INS) combined with initial target information from the launching aircraft and updates from a one or two-way data link in order to launch beyond visual range, and then switch to a terminal homing mode, typically active radar guidance. These types of missiles have the advantage of not requiring the launching aircraft to illuminate the target with radar energy for the entire flight of the missile, and in fact do not require a radar lock to launch at all, only target tracking information. This gives the target less warning that a missile has been launched and also allows the launching aircraft to turn away once the missile is in its terminal homing phase or engage other aircraft. The very longest range missiles like the Hughes (now Raytheon) AIM-54 Phoenix missile and Vympel R-33 (NATO designation AA-9 'Amos') use this technique also.

Some variants of the Vympel R-27 use Semi-active radar homing (SARH) for the initial guidance and then passive infra-red guidance for the final stage. This type of missile requires active guidance for a longer part of the flight than the fire-and-forget type of missiles but will still guide to the target even if radar lock is broken in the crucial final seconds of the engagement and may be harder to spoof with chaff due to the dual-type guidance.

i hope it will suffice and will help you to under stand the BVR technology.

 

[Rajkumar]

Firstly well i think India is talking about "surgical strikes" which i guess is how the war would be initiated!! well i guess a formation of 2 SU-30's will fly cover for 3 Mirage 2000's(the main strike package)!! this strike package will be heading for the Lahore air base! another strike package consisting of SU-30's as cover will head for the Sargodha airbase! the first strike package shall be meet by 2 F-7Ps flying CAP. while the strike package heading for Sargodha will be intercepted by 2 F-16's scarmbled from Sargodha!!

well who will do what i wil leave it for the think tanks to elaborate....however once the IAF strike is over PAF shall strike back at Halwara & Pathankot with 3 F-16s flying cover to 3 Mirage 5 ROSE upgrades....please guys help me elaborate and more detailed not with my half baked knowledge!!

i am afraid i gonna be disagree with you. i have read so many modern war histories. limited skirmishes will not yield any considerable results when two equally potent air forces fight each other.best option is, Indian should not do surgical strikes but very massive pre-emptive strike deep in to Pakistani territory like 'six day war' other wise IAF will never achieve air superiority. a prior preparation is needed like practicing 3 to 4 sortie par aircraft in a day as well as intelligence about missile detonation capability and anti-aircraft system of pak. since pak has only few air bases it will be easier to struck with agni-2 along with bramhos striking AACM launchers near the border.
strike with 80 mkis and 40 mirage2000 and mig29 and mig21bisons, all backed with airborne awacs from sea in night with air refueling in air. Time of execution is very important. Air strike has to be done within 10 min after missiles struck desired targets, this will cripple the PAF for 5 to 10 hours to do any mission. Then strike with full capacity of IAF up to 2 more sorties which will break backbone of PAF fully. this time target totally on hangers and hidden storage.
The most important thing in proposed mission is intel. Israel can help a lot in this case,they could provide good intel about AACM launchers and missile launching sites of pak because they are more afraid then Indian from Pakistani missiles. Next important thing is secrecy.Strong will to carry such daring mission is needed when it comes to this type of plan.

i hope some senior member will tell me about feasibility of this plan.

 

[Skywalker]

i am afraid i gonna be disagree with you. i have read so many modern war histories. limited skirmishes will not yield any considerable results when two equally potent air forces fight each other.best option is, Indian should not do surgical strikes but very massive pre-emptive strike deep in to Pakistani territory like 'six day war' other wise IAF will never achieve air superiority. a prior preparation is needed like practicing 3 to 4 sortie par aircraft in a day as well as intelligence about missile detonation capability and anti-aircraft system of pak. since pak has only few air bases it will be easier to struck with agni-2 along with bramhos striking AACM launchers near the border.
strike with 80 mkis and 40 mirage2000 and mig29 and mig21bisons, all backed with airborne awacs from sea in night with air refueling in air. Time of execution is very important. Air strike has to be done within 10 min after missiles struck desired targets, this will cripple the PAF for 5 to 10 hours to do any mission. Then strike with full capacity of IAF up to 2 more sorties which will break backbone of PAF fully. this time target totally on hangers and hidden storage.
The most important thing in proposed mission is intel. Israel can help a lot in this case,they could provide good intel about AACM launchers and missile launching sites of pak because they are more afraid then Indian from Pakistani missiles. Next important thing is secrecy.Strong will to carry such daring mission is needed when it comes to this type of plan.

i hope some senior member will tell me about feasibility of this plan.

It looks like you are playing too many video games, please come back to real world, dont you think as soon as PAF see so many aircrafts in the air from the enemy territory they will just sit back and will be waiting for the miracle to happen ....ofcourse not as soon as they see the enemy aircrafts there will be fighters in the air from left, right centre which ever direction you find.

Come back to reality and stop wasting your time on video games.

 

[batmannow]

i am afraid i gonna be disagree with you. i have read so many modern war histories. limited skirmishes will not yield any considerable results when two equally potent air forces fight each other.best option is, Indian should not do surgical strikes but very massive pre-emptive strike deep in to Pakistani territory like 'six day war' other wise IAF will never achieve air superiority. a prior preparation is needed like practicing 3 to 4 sortie par aircraft in a day as well as intelligence about missile detonation capability and anti-aircraft system of pak. since pak has only few air bases it will be easier to struck with agni-2 along with bramhos striking AACM launchers near the border.
strike with 80 mkis and 40 mirage2000 and mig29 and mig21bisons, all backed with airborne awacs from sea in night with air refueling in air. Time of execution is very important. Air strike has to be done within 10 min after missiles struck desired targets, this will cripple the PAF for 5 to 10 hours to do any mission. Then strike with full capacity of IAF up to 2 more sorties which will break backbone of PAF fully. this time target totally on hangers and hidden storage.
The most important thing in proposed mission is intel. Israel can help a lot in this case,they could provide good intel about AACM launchers and missile launching sites of pak because they are more afraid then Indian from Pakistani missiles. Next important thing is secrecy.Strong will to carry such daring mission is needed when it comes to this type of plan.

i hope some senior member will tell me about feasibility of this plan.

Rajkumar, sir
great reflexes, and in accordence with, the indian defence think tanks!
nice to meet you sir, but let me "assure" you about your intell, about pakistan's"AACM launchers and missile launching sites" is far more better thn of your friend & allay " Israel " they have 0% info about anything in pakistan!

well, your plan is nearly the same, what we had got, from a indian spy!
i hope, you are working with "raw", have a very new happy year sir!
so plz, think again, & change it, because pakistan is ready any way, INDIA wants?
dont waste the oppourtunity, just talking & talking! go ahead!

 

[Rajkumar]

It looks like you are playing too many video games, please come back to real world, dont you think as soon as PAF see so many aircrafts in the air from the enemy territory they will just sit back and will be waiting for the miracle to happen ....ofcourse not as soon as they see the enemy aircrafts there will be fighters in the air from left, right centre which ever direction you find.

Come back to reality and stop wasting your time on video games.

i was expecting this kind of answer. Every unusual tactic seem like impossible to implement.but i want to know from members who are in air force,if this a possible option?
can you point out big flaws except bad execution.
if execution is bad means even simplest plan will go wrong.
BTW i was suggesting incursion after missiles struck their target then how will paf know.
i am presuming Pakistan don't have military dedicated satellite.

 

[Rajkumar]

Rajkumar, sir
great reflexes, and in accordence with, the indian defence think tanks!
nice to meet you sir, but let me "assure" you about your intell, about pakistan's"AACM launchers and missile launching sites" is far more better thn of your friend & allay " Israel " they have 0% info about anything in pakistan!

every body thinks that enemy cannot possibly know its main weapons

well, your plan is nearly the same, what we had got, from a indian spy!
i hope, you are working with "raw", have a very new happy year sir!
so plz, think again, & change it, because pakistan is ready any way, INDIA wants?
dont waste the oppourtunity, just talking & talking! go ahead!

"raw" i am just a engineering student ,don't even know how to get in to raw,what are the eligibility to get in to
whole idea is just idea only nothing like following of so called think tanks
can you elaborate in to Indian spy thing?

 

[Keysersoze]

i was expecting this kind of answer. Every unusual tactic seem like impossible to implement.but i want to know from members who are in air force,if this a possible option?
can you point out big flaws except bad execution.
if execution is bad means even simplest plan will go wrong.
BTW i was suggesting incursion after missiles struck their target then how will paf know.
i am presuming Pakistan don't have military dedicated satellite.

Ok firstly the attack would depend on a number of factors.

A)Political situation. If there were tensions between India and PAk then the forces would naturally be on higher standby. Therefore it would be much harder to implement.

B)Intel resources would point to many indicators troop and aircraft movements. Contrary to common belief Pak has a good system in place to spot these things. Lets just leave it at that.....

c)A greater understanding of the systems would be needed. In a time of tension aircraft and launch systems would be dispersed and ground based air defence systems would be at full alert. the problem with using those systems is that they could be easily construed as a nuclear attack and would hence create a possible nuclear exchange.

d)Airborne assets would undoubtedly be in the air and would not be affect by the ground base attacks.

 

[iamunique]

It looks like you are playing too many video games, please come back to real world,

Is this a reference to my playing flight simulator games? My wife gives me the same dialogue every morning at 3!

...... i hope some senior member will tell me about feasibility of this plan.

There is one big assumption in your scenario bro... as mentioned by our pakistani friends, your plan assumes that we'll catch them with their pants down! Whereas history shows that THEY are the ones who've always caught us with our chaddis down and a newpaper in hand!

Besides the pakistanis have a really amazing stunt to deal with huge strike packages of the type you've mentioned. According to an israeli IP, the pakistanis plan to use their F-16s to do sneak attacks on indian strike formations just like the Vietnamese used their Mig-19s & Mig-21s against the US strike formations.

The F-16s will use terrain-masking by flying really low over cities (hiding among the buildings literally!) to avoid detection by the Indian AWACS or the BARS radar of the SUs thereby preventing BVR engagement. Then when the indian jets are right over them or close enough, they'll dart upwards in a high speed attacking run guns & missiles blazing. The result will be massacre. So... huge attacking air formations into Pakistan... a strict no-no.

 

[notorious_eagle]

Is this a reference to my playing flight simulator games? My wife gives me the same dialogue every morning at 3!



There is one big assumption in your scenario bro... as mentioned by our pakistani friends, your plan assumes that we'll catch them with their pants down! Whereas history shows that THEY are the ones who've always caught us with our chaddis down and a newpaper in hand!

Besides the pakistanis have a really amazing stunt to deal with huge strike packages of the type you've mentioned. According to an israeli IP, the pakistanis plan to use their F-16s to do sneak attacks on indian strike formations just like the Vietnamese used their Mig-19s & Mig-21s against the US strike formations.

The F-16s will use terrain-masking by flying really low over cities (hiding among the buildings literally!) to avoid detection by the Indian AWACS or the BARS radar of the SUs thereby preventing BVR engagement. Then when the indian jets are right over them or close enough, they'll dart upwards in a high speed attacking run guns & missiles blazing. The result will be massacre. So... huge attacking air formations into Pakistan... a strict no-no.

Holy ****, this is exactly what a PAF pilot told me regarding the tactics PAF has developed to counter MKIs . Another thing, this is just one of the many tactics that PAF has developed to counter the IAF. I think for this sort of tactic F16's and F7's would be ideal because they have a very fast climb rate.

 

[ahmeddsid]

I am thankful to this Forum for Knowing so Much about the Pak Armed Forces. I feel proud of your Defense Forces People. You are as good as the Indian Armed Forces if not Better. I am just waiting for the Day when we all Live like the EU!

 

[BATMAN]

Firstly well i think India is talking about "surgical strikes" which i guess is how the war would be initiated!!

I have a question for Pakistanis:
5000 targets cannot be termed as surgical strikes (common sense). It is full blown war intimation.
Considering the disadvantages of giving the opponent first strike option.
Why PAF or Pakistan defence forces did not launched premtive strikes in present standoff?
Is it that govt. of Pakistan who did not credit the statements from indian PM! Why?
Or is it that Pakistan's defence doctrine is not known to Zardari?

I have a question for indians:
Considering the target count (5000), what exactly you count as target?
I don't think Pakistan have as many cantonments or air bases!
Do you plan to hit police stations after you are done with Pakistan defence forces?

On technical grounds, I believe such high aspirations can never be built by relying on airforce alone. I think it was a plan to hit targets with surface to surface missiles.
I have no doubt that indian airforce will never be used for attack role or any premptive strikes, they will stay back untill indian missiles neutralise Pakistan airforce or air defence.

 

[PAFAce]

Holy ****, this is exactly what a PAF pilot told me regarding the tactics PAF has developed to counter MKIs . Another thing, this is just one of the many tactics that PAF has developed to counter the IAF. I think for this sort of tactic F16's and F7's would be ideal because they have a very fast climb rate.

I am currently reading 'Great Battles of the Pakistan Air Force' and I find this strategy similar to the Indian strategy against the F-104 during 1965. They came in quick, engaged with the F-86 Sabres and ran off as soon as or before the F-104s could do any real damage. However, as we know, this strategy didn't serve them too well as PAF F-86 Sabre pilots were not ones to leave you alone once you jumped them.

 

[BATMAN]

The PAF is nevertheless modernizing, and by 2012 would have caught up with the IAF. With induction in numbers of JF-17s and J-10s by the end of 2009, the PAF will see the gap vis-à-vis the IAF close rapidly.

Yet, in the Winter of 2008/2009, the PAF is yet half-made and the threat of war is thrust upon her. The PAF and IAF are on their highest alert, as the IAF sees its last opportunity to break the PAF, and the PAF holds strong and does not back down. The vital question thus becomes, what will happen if war broke out now? Today?

imo, ^^this was the big question in whole article! and later writer did conventional analysis based on known technical grounds. Where I see all indians disagreed!
One thing which I believe no one would disagree is that by 2012 IAF will loose its numerical and technological superiority on the paper as well! which may be very disturbing for IAF, when writer says starting a war today is the best option for IAF, I think it is very very valid reason to believe war is iminent.
Hence untill 2012 PAF and Pakistan armed forces need to be on very very high alert and very responsive of any activity and cannot risk it all to sweat talk of Zardari.

 

[PAFAce]

Why PAF or Pakistan defence forces did not launched premtive strikes in present standoff?

Because they are smart. Pre-emptive strikes would lead, in no time, to full scale war, and could not be undertaken based simply on 'threats' from politicians. Had the intelligence information indicated any real threats, then, surely, the PAF would have considered them.

I have a question for everyone who seems to dislike the direction or recent actions of the PAF or our Armed Forces. Do you really think you are somehow smarter or in a better position to make these decisions? And are you willing to bet innocent lives on those 'hunches' of yours?

 

[BATMAN]

Because they are smart. Pre-emptive strikes would lead, in no time, to full scale war, and could not be undertaken based simply on 'threats' from politicians. Had the intelligence information indicated any real threats, then, surely, the PAF would have considered them.

I have a question for everyone who seems to dislike the direction or recent actions of the PAF or our Armed Forces. Do you really think you are somehow smarter or in a better position to make these decisions? And are you willing to bet innocent lives on those 'hunches' of yours?

Thanks, so this is the answer that statements of indian politicians are not considered credible in Pakistan.

I was only wondering how the hell indian PM / FM came up with particular figure of 5000 targets.
Were they simply doing maths in their party office? or were they briefed about this figure from their security agencies?
Or as you said that was a mere hunch betting innocent lives?
In later case such politicians cum animals does not deserve to be respected or trusted upon. It should be made clear to wider world by Pakistani politicians but why it did not happen? Are Pakistani politicains inept or traitors in disguise?

I really don't understand when Pakistani inocent life means little to Pakistanis where as they regard flives of foreign nations very dear.

I know nothing even as compare to any airforce employee! I hope that clears my self.