PAF vs. IAF Analysis- Air Combat Over the Subcontinent

[KnightRyder]

Its not a shame to admit we dont know something, Chinese Fighters etc dont have the necessary credibility in the world that the Russian/european/american stuff has.

Single advice for you- STOP BEING AN INTERNET WARRIOR! GET A LIFE

Have I asked for an advice from you mate?

Stop spamming the board...

China started making fighter jets only like 2 decades ago whereas Russkies/US/euro's been making them for 100 years if not more..and China's fighter planes havn't been tested in any recent conflict however Janes and other intelligence report that china's been making quite deadly AC in recent times and their upgraded Russian planes are better than the original ruskies themselves.

i see atleast 10 posts everyday by pakistanis who calim that pakistan is superior in god knows what...BECAUSE india doesnt attack!
do you even know why you people got the nuke...to prevent a conventonal war with india.

Every damn think tank on this planet would agree that pakistan's chances on the conventional front are zilch.and if your 'defence analysts' were to be believed...then pakistan is already under attack from the raw in FATA!
and yet we get the global backing and arm twist you in to ban JuD.if they were to be believed then you are under attack and live in denial.

The only claim i see in this thread is that PAF pilots are better than IAF and we back this claim with history of 65 n 71 wars respectively, which is very hard to swallow by our indian fellows here, as its evident in your post.

secondly, your claim that Pak got nukes to prevent a conventional war with india is utterly ridiculuous and unfounded. The fact that Pak has survived as a country in 40 odd years without nuclear capability against indian mischeivously designed wars and aggressive plots is evidence enough to throw your futile claim in the dustbin

Thirdly which think tanks do you speak on behalf of? plz care to enlighten us...instead of littering this thread with futile bickering

 

[paritosh]

Have I asked for an advice from you mate?

Stop spamming the board...

China started making fighter jets only like 2 decades ago whereas Russkies/US/euro's been making them for 100 years if not more..and China's fighter planes havn't been tested in any recent conflict however Janes and other intelligence report that china's been making quite deadly AC in recent times and their upgraded Russian planes are better than the original ruskies themselves.


The only claim i see in this thread is that PAF pilots are better than IAF and we back this claim with history of 65 n 71 wars respectively, which is very hard to swallow by our indian fellows here, as its evident in your post.

secondly, your claim that Pak got nukes to prevent a conventional war with india is utterly ridiculuous and unfounded. The fact that Pak has survived as a country in 40 odd years without nuclear capability against indian mischeivously designed wars and aggressive plots is evidence enough to throw your futile claim in the dustbin

Thirdly which think tanks do you speak on behalf of? plz care to enlighten us...instead of littering this thread with futile bickering

you back the claim of 65 71...with what?
i ask for neutral sources...you gave me chuck yeager...
if what you are saying is true...then the nukes dont make any difference to the eqn now do they?
so what is stopping pakistan from adopting a no first use policy like india?
i said ALL the think tanks...prove me otherwise as it would be easier to find ONe think tank that would believe the opposite...neutral again.

 

[Super Falcon]

for F 18 J 10 is on the deal to counter it sir

 

[Super Falcon]

now we need to build good relations with russia to buy some weapons from them if we can get SU 35 i think we can counter all fighter jets in IAF even SU 30mki and MRCA F 18

 

[ahmeddsid]

for F 18 J 10 is on the deal to counter it sir

First of all F18 is not finalised, If at all it becomes operational it will take time for the Indians to master it, as it is with any High tech aircraft. PAF is master of the F16 because they have trained like hell on it, and I am sure they are deadly in combat.

But for the J10 to be a worthy competitor to the F18 well it has to be proven, and proven like the F18 or others on the MRCA fray!

 

[Moscow]

as usual the thread moved from a logical dicussion to an india vs pakistan war waht else can we expect.
lets get some things rught from a neutral aspect.

yes paf has better pilots who are trained well:--that dosent make paf a world class airforce paf has to do much more to even match the real powers.

yes iaf has better equipment and technology at present-- that still dosent make the iaf a world beating airforce they still have to do much more.

guys and friends an humble request can't be we more dignified when talking about a nations soldiers.pilots and soldiers from both nations do their best for their country we can atleast show some gratude and acknowledge their efforts instead of fighting in a forum as to who has better skills.

i my earlier post in this thread i had raised quite a few point about this article claims.
no one yet has answered these points.
still people talking of buys j10 by 2009 <as stated in the article >how many, when, what is the turnover number,what are the technical specifications.

now people want su-35 why? where is the official pakistni interest where is the money?

now the indian friends do you really know why the us called you to the red flag its to spy on the details of the su-30mki.and not because iaf is some other propoganda.

yes and some post here claimed why did the iaf did not attack pakistan are you out of your mind sir,dont you ever think what kind of misery a war brings.

also people speak of 65,71 why dont you concentrate on 2009 and then after as the thread emphasises on,history dosent repeat itself unless human beings make the same mistakes time and again.

paf should be proud of its air for beraring in mind they still have to do a lot to improve and so too iaf.

 

[aanshu001]

now we need to build good relations with russia to buy some weapons from them if we can get SU 35 i think we can counter all fighter jets in IAF even SU 30mki and MRCA F 18

boss i had a simple question if current F-16 of PAF are more than a match for Indian MKI than how come Su -35 can counter most latest F- 18.

on one side most of you basing a technology coz India uses that and other hand you are looking forward for the same or copy from Russia/China. Most of the defense personals thinks that MKI is export version of Su-35. and already Russia had shown her interest to export to India. The thing which had major difference between them is Asea radar which India is getting anyway coz of MCRA or PAK-FA.

 

[aanshu001]

and mascow had already said the topic losses the logical debate.

if we talk about sam system india had S -300, akash, spyder,upgraded Pechora SA-3 and radars like green pine, Aerostat , Indria 1 & II and rajendra. Su -30 can be used as mini awacs

Falcon is future and so all development of JF-17 & F-16 MLU,

at current scenario IAF mirage 2000 and MIG- 29 are more than capable to handle PAF F-16 as they are nearly equal in technology had batter radar than current PAF F-16 had and the IAF men had quite a commend on these birds, if a scenario comes to dog fight other wise they had bvr.

in case of seed missions IAF operates more than 60 bases and PAF had 10 (i think so) neutralizing or making them definitional for several hours in case of war if compared IAF had better chances as all of PAF bases are quite strikebound as they are on eastern border, in other case Indian bases are quite deep at present only F-16 had look down and shoot down capabilities and PAF will not take chance to lose their most potent platform (and please don't tell me that F-7 can go and strike Delhi)

War is not only bases on weapons and machines but also how you use them and for how much time you can operate them in war.

 

[Muradk]

WHHHHOOOOOOOOO hold your horses. I will get in-touch with my students from USA and UK fighter pilots and ask them the same question because india also goes to UK for FIS.

 

[Vinod2070]

Does it matter?

What does matter that USAF with a massive and far superior force considered them as a potential threat just because they were trained by PAF.

If it is a fact (and I do trust you though I have never seen any reports of such kind anywhere) then it does a credit to PAF.

But yes, I will say it does matter if those fighters differentiated themselves from the others? Otherwise the fears were without basis!

 

[ahmeddsid]

Sir Murad, Could you shed some light on the "Article" Which started this Comparison? Would love to hear from someone of your stature.

 

[Moscow]

ok so can some1 gimme info on f-16, jf-17 and j-10

like radar range, irst or not, ew systems, range, speed, t.w. ratio, missiles carried, range of missiles, etc...

oh and most importantly RCS

and can some1 gimme info on mirage 2000, su-30 mki, and mig-29

same info


and also gimme the numbers each af has atm and the numbers by 2020.

i wanna do an analaysis

thank you

[edit] Airframe

Extensive use of composite materials are made while constructing the airframe of the MKI variant.[16]The Su-30MKI is a highly integrated twin-finned aircraft. The airframe is constructed of titanium and high-strength aluminium alloys. The engine nacelles are fitted with trouser fairings to provide a continuous streamlined profile between the nacelles and the tail beams. The fins and horizontal tail consoles are attached to tail beams. The central beam section between the engine nacelles consists of the equipment compartment, fuel tank and the brake parachute container. The fuselage head is of semi-monocoque construction and includes the cockpit, radar compartments and the avionics bay.


[edit] Cockpit and ergonomics

Mk.3, a further development over the existing MKI variant, will integrate avionic systems being developed for the Indo-Russian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft program.[17]
[edit] Flight control
The aircraft has a fly by wire (FBW) with quadruple redundancy. Depending on the flight conditions, signals from the control stick position transmitter or the FCS will be coupled to the remote control amplifiers. These signals are combined with feedback signals fed by acceleration sensors and rate gyros. The resultant control signals are coupled to the high-speed electro-hydraulic actuators of the elevators, rudders and the canard. The output signals are compared and, if the difference is significant, the faulty channel is disconnected. FBW is based on a stall warning and barrier mechanism which prevents development of aircraft stalls through a dramatic increase in the control stick pressure. This allows a pilot to effectively control the aircraft without running the risk of reaching the limit values of angle of attack and acceleration. Although the maximum angle of attack is limited by the canards the FBW acts as an additional safety mechanism.


[edit] General features
The displays include a highly customized version of the Elbit Su 967 head-up display consisting of bi-cubic phase conjugated holographic displays and seven liquid crystal multifunction displays, six 127 mm x 127 mm and one 152 mm x 152 mm. The HUD was widely misreported to be the VEH 3000 from Thales. Variants of the same HUD have also been chosen for the IAF's MiG-27 and SEPECAT Jaguar upgrades, on grounds of standardization. Flight information is displayed on four LCD displays which include one for piloting and navigation, a tactical situation indicator, and two for display systems information including operating modes and overall operation status. The rear cockpit is fitted with a larger monochromatic screen display for the air-to-surface missile guidance. The Su-30MKI on-board health and usage monitoring system (HUMS) monitors almost every aircraft system and sub-system including the avionics sub-systems. It can also act as an engineering data recorder


[edit] Navigation
The aircraft is fitted with a satellite navigation system (A-737 GPS compatible), which permits it to make flights in all weather, day and night. The navigation complex comprises high accuracy SAGEM integrated global positioning system and ring laser gyroscope inertial navigation system.


[edit] Pilot ejection
The crew are provided zero-zero KD-36DM ejection seats. The rear seat is raised for better visibility. The cockpit is provided with containers to store food and water reserves, a waste disposal system and extra oxygen bottles. The KD-36DM ejection seat is inclined at 30º, to help the pilot resist aircraft accelerations in air combat.


[edit] Aerodynamics

Two Sukhoi-30MKIs during a maneuverSu-30MKI aerodynamic configuration is an unstable longitudinal triplane. The canard increases the aircraft lifting ability and deflects automatically to allow high angle-of-attack (AoA) flights. The integral aerodynamic configuration combined with thrust vectoring results in extremely capable maneuverability, taking off and landing characteristics. This high agility allows rapid deployment of weapons in any direction as desired by the crew. The canard notably assists in controlling the aircraft at large angles-of-attack and bringing it to a level flight condition. The wing will have high-lift devices featured as deflecting leading edges, and flaperons acting as flaps and ailerons.


[edit] Radar
The forward facing NIIP N011M Bars (Panther) is a powerful integrated passive electronically scanned array radar. The N011M is a digital multi-mode dual frequency band radar.[18] The N011M can function in air-to-air and air-to-land/sea mode simultaneously while being tied into a high-precision laser-inertial or GPS navigation system. It is equipped with a modern digital weapons control system as well as anti-jamming features. N011M has a 350 km search range and a maximum 200 km tracking range, and 60 km in the rear hemisphere. The radar can track 15 air targets and engage the 4 most dangerous simultaneously. These targets can even include cruise missiles and motionless helicopters. The Su-30MKI can function as a mini-AWACS as a director or command post for other aircraft. The target co-ordinates can be transferred automatically to at least 4 other aircraft. The radar can detect ground targets such as tanks at 40–50 km.

The Su-30MKI can be integrated with the BrahMos cruise missiles, it can carry up to 3 of these cruise missiles for the land attack and anti shipping roles. This ability, being a unique feature, usually assigned to dedicated bombers, further enhances its multi-role capabilities and is the only fighter in the world at present, able to carry the BrahMos.


[edit] Avionics

[edit] Laser-optical locator system
OLS-30 laser-optical locator system to include a day and night FLIR capability and is used in conjunction with the helmet mounted sighting system. The OLS-30 is a combined IRST/LR device using a cooled, broader waveband, sensor. Detection range is up to 90 Km, whilst the laser ranger is effective to 3.5 Km. Targets are displayed on the same LCD display as the radar.


[edit] LITENING targeting pod
Israeli LITENING targeting pod is used to target the laser guided munitions. Litening incorporates in a single pod all the targeting features required by a modern strike fighter. The original Litening pod includes a long range FLIR, a TV camera, a flash-lamp powered laser designator, laser spot tracker for tracking target designated by other aircraft or from the ground, and an electro-optical point and inertial tracker, which enabled continuous engagement of the target even when the target is partly obscured by clouds or countermeasures. The pod integrates the necessary laser rangefinder and designator, required for the delivery of Laser Guided Bombs, cluster and general purpose bombs.


[edit] Electronic countermeasures
Sukhoi Su-30MKI has electronic counter-measure systems. The RWR system is an indigenously developed system by DRDO, called Tarang, (Wave in Sanskrit). It has direction finding capability and is known to have a programmable threat library. The RWR is derived from work done on an earlier system for India's MiG-23BNs known as the Tranquil, which is now superseded by the more advanced Tarang series. Elta EL/M-8222 a self-protection jammer developed by Israel Aircraft Industries is the MKI's standard EW pod, which the Israeli Air Force uses on its F-15s. The ELTA El/M-8222 Self Protection Pod is a power-managed jammer, air-cooled system with an ESM receiver integrated into the pod. The pod contains an antenna on the forward and aft ends, which receive the hostile RF signal and after processing deliver the appropriate response.


[edit] Propulsion

The tail section of the Su-30MKI showing the TVC nozzles and horizontal stabilizers.The Su-30MKI is powered by the two Al-31FP turbofans. Each Al-31FP is rated at 12,500 kgf (27,550 lbf) of full afterburning thrust:

Al-31FP builds on the Al-37FU with the capability to vector in 2 planes. The TVC nozzles of the MKI are mounted 32 degrees outward to longitudinal engine axis (i.e. in the horizontal plane) and can be deflected ±15 degrees in the vertical plane. This produces a cork-screw effect and thus enhancing the turning capability of the aircraft.
Two AL-31FP by-pass thrust-vectoring turbojet reheated engines (25,000 kgf full afterburning thrust) ensure a 2M horizontal flight speed (a 1350 km/h ground-level speed) and a rate of climb of 230 m/s. The mean time between overhaul for the AL-31FP is given at 1,000 hours with a full-life span of 3,000 hours. The titanium nozzle has a mean time between overhaul of 500 hours.
There is no strain-gauge engine control stick to change the engine thrust in the cockpit, rather just a conventional engine throttle control lever. The pilot controls the aircraft with help of a standard control stick. On the pilot's right there is a switch which is turned on for performing difficult maneuvers. After the switch-over, the computer determines the level of use of aerodynamic surfaces and swiveling nozzles and their required deflection angles.

[edit] Fuel system
The Su-30MKI has a range of 5,000 km with internal fuel which ensures a 4.5 hour combat mission. Also, it has an in-flight refueling (IFR) probe that retracts beside the cockpit during normal operation. The air refueling system increases the flight duration up to 10 hours with a range of 8,000 km at a cruise height of 11 to 13 km. Su-30 MKIs can also use the Cobham 754 buddy refueling pods

 

[hj786]

Does it matter?

What does matter that USAF with a massive and far superior force considered them as a potential threat just because they were trained by PAF.

If it is a fact (and I do trust you though I have never seen any reports of such kind anywhere) then it does a credit to PAF.

But yes, I will say it does matter if those fighters differentiated themselves from the others? Otherwise the fears were without basis!

I can confirm this:

On one or two occasions, I had the opportunity to talk with Pakistani instructor pilots, who had served in Iraq. These discussions, didn&#8217;t give me great cause to worry. The Russian domination of training prevented the Pakistanis from having any real influence on the Iraqi aircrew training program.

Still, there had to be a few Iraqi pilots, who had observed and listened to their mentors from France and Pakistan and not the useless guidence of their inept leaders. It was those few, I was concerned about - the ones with great situational awareness and good eyesight, who had figured out how to effectively use their aircraft and its weapons to defend their nation.&#8221;

(General Chuck Horner (retd) and Tom Clancey. General Chuck commanded the US and allied air assets during Desert shield and desert storm, and was responsible for the design and execution of one of the most devestating air campaigns in the history. He also served as Commander 9th Air Force, Commander US Central Command Air Forces, and Commander in chief, SpaceCom. Book: Every Man A Tiger).

 

[PAFAce]

The things that I am reading here are quite alarming.

One on side you have the Indian fanboys who will not admit their losses in previous wars and their definciencies, claiming US sources are not neutral. So who is then? if its not Pakistan, the States or anyone else who speaks in favour of Pakistan, maybe we should just ask the Indians and accept their versions without argument. That may make them happy.

On the other hand, we have a Russian claiming 'PAF pilots are better but not world class'. Do I even need to say what is wrong here? I don't know which statement is worse, 'PAF pilots are not world class' or 'Current LCA is superior to the Eurofighter Typhoon'. Now I have read everything on the internet.

I would be the last person to say IAF or Russian pilots are inept, but give credit where credit is deserved men.

 

[Moscow]

The things that I am reading here are quite alarming.

One on side you have the Indian fanboys who will not admit their losses in previous wars and their definciencies, claiming US sources are not neutral. So who is then? if its not Pakistan, the States or anyone else who speaks in favour of Pakistan, maybe we should just ask the Indians and accept their versions without argument. That may make them happy.

On the other hand, we have a Russian claiming 'PAF pilots are better but not world class'. Do I even need to say what is wrong here? I don't know which statement is worse, 'PAF pilots are not world class' or 'Current LCA is superior to the Eurofighter Typhoon'. Now I have read everything on the internet.

I would be the last person to say IAF or Russian pilots are inept, but give credit where credit is deserved men.

sir the saying was a reply to some of my friends in these forum who claim that whatever be it they are the best, same be it the paf followers or the iaf followers.

i will tell you why i made the comment that paf piliots are better but not world class its because of the amount of experience they have in modern conflict zone. as to you sir i would like to ask how much experience does paf pilots have in bvr capable,precision guided and other technological advanced fights,because members here claimed that paf pilots were better or as goodas the us pilots. i am very sure they are well trained in these fields but they did not have the real conflict zone experience recently what the USAF,IAF<Israeli air force> posses.
i have utmost respect for the soldiers of a nation and in no way i am suited to make any claims about their ability it was just an assesment about the present situation.

and as far as your claims about the russian pilots i do not want to claim that they are the worlds best,my opinion does not make or break them nor does the links and articles show how good or bad they are.maybe sir some senior member here can enlighten you about the russian pilot capabilities as my saying anything would not be proper.

one more point:- yes paf pilots are world class then does it make the other pilots the usaf,iaf... pilots inferior in any way my answer would be no
because there can always be more than one world class.
as you sir have rightly called give credit where credit is due and in all discussions regards paf in all my post i have always acknowledged the capabilities and skills of paf pilots< but that dosent lead you to make high and inaccurate claims>

thanx