PAF & the ramifications of Rafale's sale to India

[Manticore]

With the ongoing rafale acquisation by India, a lot of threads on the ramifications are bound to open in the paf section.

MODS will monitor this thread to keep it ON-TOPIC


To New Members;
Any poster posting in urdu or slang will be immediately thread banned. I am sick and tired of watching people posting urdu in english alphabets and will start to actively infract them

I have written a template in my first post in this thread. So that new/young members dont post one liners instead have an idea where to take the content of the thread.

You can pick any of the points in my template to discuss or you can discuss all the points briefly yet comprehensively like milspec just did.

Avoid offtopic one liners or you wont be taken seriously. Morover it takes the forum quality down.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/paf-the-...les-sale-to-india.427156/page-3#ixzz463l71Hje

Discussion should revolve around these points--- useless posts will be deleted, posters thread banned




1--What is PAF's priority [ Land defence,Sea denial, deep attacks with heavy bombs or smart ammunitions ] ?


2--Can jf-17 completely meet those demands/doctrine even after aesa/ifr probe/composites/strengthened structure/tweaked engine?


3--If not what are the options and possible numbers? Is the cost of buying/ training/maintenance/spare parts/ years to build strategy/ availability rate worth the hassle?


4--S300 copies vs introduction of another 4.5 gen fighter


5--Should we wait another decade for j31 or should we buy some 4.5 gen fighter instead and develop tactics in the meanwhile


6--To Indian posters, what would you suggest PAF do OTHER than bolstering economy and admitting that India is a super power


7--Is the replacement of 190 old fighters with a BVR capable light fighter sufficient keeping in view Pakistan's economy?


8--J10 and JF-17 may have similar capability but they DON'T have SAME capability. Are the J-10 an ideal replacement for the mirage squadrons?


9--Is there any chance of getting reliable subsystems for jft from the French?

10--Other than numbers, what capability rafale brings to IAF, which they wont exploit in the su30 including its naval role

11-- Importance of loiter time in war

12--Are destroyers, submarines, helicopters, s300 derivatives and cruise missiles the answer?

13--Importance of joint ventures for subsystems avionics / ammunitions with countries other than China

 

[cloud4000]

If it's strictly about Rafales then Pakistan should 1) enhance the capabilities of JF-17 2) invest in better SAM systems 3) invest in a 4.5 generation jet in the interim and a 5th generation for long term.

 

[Mrc]

Continue with f16s and jf 17...

May be couple of j10 b squadrens as interim...

Earliest possible induction of j 31

 

[باپ]

I herd the Indian Rafale hoo haa when I was in diapers. I managed so stop being in diapers and wear pants. Now I got plenty of grey hair,but still no Rafale in IAF.
I will believe when I see it in Indian colours.

 

[Manticore]

I herd the Indian Rafale hoo haa
.

herd
həːd/
noun

1. 1.
   a large group of animals,

 

[Path-Finder]

Apparently I hearde on the greap vine that something is being worked on by PAF. Not knowing what it is the biggest killer!

 

[Emmie]

If it's strictly about Rafales then Pakistan should 1) enhance the capabilities of JF-17 2) invest in better SAM systems 3) invest in a 4.5 generation jet in the interim and a 5th generation for long term.

Rafale seems to be a clear winner in all scenario, is this what you are implying? If PAF has to neutralize Rafale it has to enhance capabilities of JFT + has to procure a proven SAM system + has to procure 4.5 generation jet, and this all is just an interim setup PAF ultimately has to induct a 5th generation jet to cope the beast called Rafale for long term!

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

With the ongoing rafale acquisation by India, a lot of threads on the ramifications are bound to open in the paf section.

MODS will monitor this thread to keep it ON-TOPIC

Discussion should revolve around these points--- useless posts will be deleted, posters thread banned


1
--What is PAF's priority [ Land defence,Sea denial, deep attacks with heavy bombs or smart ammunitions ] ?
2
--Can jf-17 completely meet those demands/doctrine even after aesa/ifr probe/composites/strengthened structure/tweaked engine?
3
--If not what are the options and possible numbers? Is the cost of buying/ training/maintenance/spare parts/ years to build strategy/ availability rate worth the hassle?
4
--S300 copies vs introduction of another 4.5 gen fighter
5
--Should we wait another decade for j31 or should we buy another 4.5 gen fighter and develop tactics in the meanwhile
6
--To Indian posters, what would you suggest PAF do OTHER than bolstering economy and admitting that India is a super power
7
--Is the replacement of 190 old fighters with a BVR capable light fighter sufficient keeping in view Pakistan's economy?
8
--J10 and JF-17 may have similar capability but they DONT have SAME capability

The 8 points that you have mentioned do not completely describe the situation. Why?

1) The true picture of how many Rafales are actually being bought is still not known.
2) Where are these Rafales be stationed.
3) The kind of war strategy IAF would device for the Rafales.
4) What other assets would be available along with the Rafales.
5) Will the IN also buy Rafale M's if yes then how many and what kind of battle scenario would that make.

The Role of PAF in the beginning was to have a hard hitting force which would have latest and best equipment. After the 1965 war this has become a dream. The threat of sanctions and non availability of advance weapons and delivery systems really limits the capabilities of deep strike and air supremacy that was attained in 1965.

Looking at present or the 2-4 years that PAF has before considerable number of Rafales enter IAF service we can only see that PAF is only capable of denial of airspace over Pakistan. This conclusion is evident from the limited number of F-16s PAF has as compared to SU-30 MKI.

What should be done?
IMO
1) Increase the number of JF-17 blk 3 ASAP.
2) Ask China to expedite the J-31
3) Join some SAM program and build low, medium, and high altitude locally.
4) Join local production of a decent attack helicopter.
5) Increase the number of fast attack boats for coastal defences.
6) Increase the number of Submarines from the planed 13 to 20.
7) Try to purchase Corvettes from Russia with TOT.
8) Make a wall on the Western Boarder with Afghanistan.
9) Upgrade the radar systems.

@Manticore can you change the topic of the post to:

"Ramifications For Pakistan Against The Indian Dream Of Becoming A Super Power"

 

[Humble Analyst]

The 8 points that you have mentioned do not completely describe the situation. Why?

1) The true picture of how many Rafales are actually being bought is still not known.
2) Where are these Rafales be stationed.
3) The kind of war strategy IAF would device for the Rafales.
4) What other assets would be available along with the Rafales.
5) Will the IN also buy Rafale M's if yes then how many and what kind of battle scenario would that make.

The Role of PAF in the beginning was to have a hard hitting force which would have latest and best equipment. After the 1965 war this has become a dream. The threat of sanctions and non availability of advance weapons and delivery systems really limits the capabilities of deep strike and air supremacy that was attained in 1965.

Looking at present or the 2-4 years that PAF has before considerable number of Rafales enter IAF service we can only see that PAF is only capable of denial of airspace over Pakistan. This conclusion is evident from the limited number of F-16s PAF has as compared to SU-30 MKI.

What should be done?
IMO
1) Increase the number of JF-17 blk 3 ASAP.
2) Ask China to expedite the J-31
3) Join some SAM program and build low, medium, and high altitude locally.
4) Join local production of a decent attack helicopter.
5) Increase the number of fast attack boats for coastal defences.
6) Increase the number of Submarines from the planed 13 to 20.
7) Try to purchase Corvettes from Russia with TOT.
8) Make a wall on the Western Boarder with Afghanistan.
9) Upgrade the radar systems.

@Manticore can you change the topic of the post to:

"Ramifications For Pakistan Against The Indian Dream Of Becoming A Super Power"

No 2 is very hard if the program is successful then only can think of expediting. Number 8 is so impractical that I do not know t laugh or cry. Number 6 is financially hard I can under stand maintain 13 but going to 20 without proper Air and support in the waters is looking for trouble not to mention it is economically not practical. 11-15 is optimum number of sub provided 3 -6 have second strike capability.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well I traditionally follow , an approach of local R&D or working with what we have.
Pakistan's strength is their Engineering and Human Resources.

It is not how many F16 we have

Trun around aim of 3-7 Years

Even with 1000 Rafale , India can't stop what we have

Invest in R&D:
a) KAMRA Avionics factory (Invest 500% more) , 2-3 facilities vs 1 , develop New Gen Avionic
b) Move on SAM local manufacturing (High Altitude)
c) Continue collaboration on next Gen radar
d) Enhance Cruise Missile performance
e) Setup Engine Manufacturing Factory

Enhance MRF: (Keep the facility running) or Repurpose J11 (FighterJet Rebuild Factory)
a) Mirage Rebuilt factory (MRF) (Increase capacity 100%)
b) Bring in 200 Mirage in open market (Dirt Dirt Dirt Cheap)
c) Rebuild and enhance with new generation Avionics, Made in Pakistan
(HUDs, Helmet, Large Screen Avionic, Next Gen Radar) - see if collaboration is possible
d) Add few 2-3 Mirage 2000 squadrons in open market

We do 100% overhauls in Pakistan

Considering we make 99% of maintenance in Pakistan , we could in Theory bring the Mirage bought from Open market to Block 2 Thunder standard (Avionics & Weapons)

or Re-purpose, Aim for TOT for J11 - Figher Jet Rebuild Factory (FRF)
a) Setup J11 Rebuilt Factory in Pakistan with aim of 100 units
b) Bring Next Gen Avionics out of box
c) Start working with more powerful 2 engine jets

Mature what we have : (CORE)
a) Grow JF17 Thunder program to Block 3 / 250 Units
b) Expand the Manufacturing Unit (Multi city Operations)
c) Next Gen Cruise Missile
d) $$$ SALES , Make sales

Buy what we need:
a) 4 Navy Destroyers with SAM for coastal Air Defense
b) ASELAN SAM (Medium Range) , Missiles - License Production for border with India


New / Excess defense articles:
>F16 C/D in number
>F18 if available in open market 2 squadrons


or

Sukhoi-35 (5 Squadrons) brand new Top of the line

 

[mingle]

Well I traditionally follow , an approach of local R&D or working with what we have.
Pakistan's strength is their Engineering and Human Resources.

Invest in R&D:
a) KAMRA Avionics factory (Factor of 500%) , 2-3 facilities vs 1 , develop New Gen Avionic
b) Move on SAM local manufacturing (High Altitude)
c) Continue collaboration on next Gen radar

Enhance MRF: (Keep the facility running )
a) Mirage Rebuilt factory (MRF) (Increase capacity 100%)
b) Bring in 200 Mirage in open market (Dirt Cheap)
c) Rebuild and enhance with new generation Avionics
d) Seek Mirage 2000 squadrons in open market

or Shut down, Aim for TOT for J11

a) Setup J11 Rebuilt Factory in Pakistan

Mature what we have : (CORE)
a) Grow JF17 Thunder program to Block 3 / 250 Units
b) Expand the Manufacturing Unit (Multi city Operations)
c) Next Gen Cruise Missile
d) $$$ SALES , Sell to markets seeking planes

Buy what we need:
a) 4 Navy Destroyers with SAM for coastal Air Defense
b) ASELAN SAM (Medium Range) , Missiles - License Production for border with India

New or Excess defense articles:
>F16 C/D in number
>F18 if available in open market

or

Sukhoi-35 (5 Squadrons)

We have good chance to secure more new and used F 16s reason is India not gonna induct any fighter from US no matter what US offers them plus JF 17 blk 3 Blk 52 F 16 is as good as Rafale is icing if we have $$ a heavy jet twin engine could be Boeing F 15 eagles .

 

[untitled]

Should we wait another decade for j31 or should we buy another 4.5 gen fighter and develop tactics in the meanwhile

If we can't acquire another 4.5/5th generation fighter maybe we can at least develop a simulator for it and develop tactics. By the time the aircraft does enter the service we can hit the ground running.

 

[DesiGuy1403]

Pakistan needs to really step up their diplomatic relations with countries that have capable counters to Rafale.
Even then with how expensive these kinds of planes are to buy and maintain, the options for you are not looking that good.

Simply put F16 and Chinese copies are not going to cut it against Rafale and Su fighters combo India has.
With the other options India has SAM's are not going to be of great help either.

In short, first step is to improve relations with countries that have these kind of planes....that seems to be the biggest road block as of now.

 

[Zarvan]

With the ongoing rafale acquisation by India, a lot of threads on the ramifications are bound to open in the paf section.

MODS will monitor this thread to keep it ON-TOPIC

Discussion should revolve around these points--- useless posts will be deleted, posters thread banned

Any poster posting in urdu or slang will be immediately thread banned. I am sick and tired of watching people posting urdu in english alphabets and will start to actively infract them


1--What is PAF's priority [ Land defence,Sea denial, deep attacks with heavy bombs or smart ammunitions ] ?


2--Can jf-17 completely meet those demands/doctrine even after aesa/ifr probe/composites/strengthened structure/tweaked engine?


3--If not what are the options and possible numbers? Is the cost of buying/ training/maintenance/spare parts/ years to build strategy/ availability rate worth the hassle?


4--S300 copies vs introduction of another 4.5 gen fighter


5--Should we wait another decade for j31 or should we buy another 4.5 gen fighter and develop tactics in the meanwhile


6--To Indian posters, what would you suggest PAF do OTHER than bolstering economy and admitting that India is a super power


7--Is the replacement of 190 old fighters with a BVR capable light fighter sufficient keeping in view Pakistan's economy?


8--J10 and JF-17 may have similar capability but they DONT have SAME capability. Are the J-10 an ideal replacement for the mirage squadrons?


9--Is there any chance of getting reliable subsystems for jft from the French?

10--Other than numbers, what capability rafale brings to IAF, which they wont exploit in the su30 including its naval role

11-- Importance of loiter time in war

12--Are destroyers, submarines, helicopters, s300 derivatives and cruise missiles the answer?

Pakistan should go for either Euro Fighter or SU-35. We need three squadrons of those and we also need to increase production and capability of JF-17 along with adding more Air Defence systems. As for Submarines and Destroyers yes we need them and lots of them but not to answer Rafael but to counter massively growing Indian Navy.

 

[cloud4000]

Rafale seems to be a clear winner in all scenario, is this what you are implying? If PAF has to neutralize Rafale it has to enhance capabilities of JFT + has to procure a proven SAM system + has to procure 4.5 generation jet, and this all is just an interim setup PAF ultimately has to induct a 5th generation jet to cope the beast called Rafale for long term!

Sorry. Got carried away. Not all steps need to be taken, but definitely a combination of aforementioned suggestions would be ideal.