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PAF Strategy for using AWACS

Hi, this is a good force multiplier. However, I would be concerned for both parties be it a Phalcon or an Erieye aircrew. Pakistan is interested in getting the HQ9A SAM and India the S-300/400.

ASIAN DEFENCE: China offers HQ-9 SAM for export

Both of these are long range SAMs and can interfere or shoot down these planes, from either side of the border.
 
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With a reported max. range of 125 km, I do not believe it can be that big a threat! Moreover, I would be surprised if HQ-9's (when procured by pakistan) would be used for anything more than area defence for big cities, military bases, strategic assets etc. Thus I will not be too concerned unless the aim is to target such locations.
 
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Air enthusiast and Air strategists maintain that air power is intrinsically offensive in nature and its primary mission should be the destruction of the enemy through aerial bombardment. Air power in the defensive role is acknowledged only to the extent that it is necessary to blunt the enemy’s air assaults before launching ones own. Logically then, strike missions should occupy the highest priority. Yet in reality this is not true. Air combat missions involving duels between opposing aircraft attempting to shoot each other down in an effort to win control of the air has traditionally occupied the top slot in the various roles that air power is expected to perform. To perform any of the assigned roles of air power, winning control of the air is an essential pre-requisite. While enemy air power can be blunted in many different ways, dedicated air superiority fighters remains the most effective defence against enemy air assaults. When air power of a nation is to operate against an adversary that also possesses air power assets, the first priority of air missions has to be neutralization, or at the least, sufficient degradation of the opponent’s air power capability.
An offensive counter-air operation that focuses attacks on air infrastructure including aircraft inventory becomes imperative. The other side will attempt to counter it though their air defence network in which air superiority fighters form a key element. Air combat then is inevitable and it plays a vital role in determining if the offensive side has managed to establish control of the air or the defenders have successfully denied it to the aggressors. For both the contestants air combat becomes a central cohesive source of support and stability.
Thanks for your reply. It is very informative.
Given the PAF doctrine and aircraft it operate, how much do you think air combat will be over India?

What I am trying to understand, how much asset or liability will be AWACS if combat is happening on home turf? What are the adv of AWACS over ground based assets during the air-combat?

regards,
 
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What I am trying to understand, how much asset or liability will be AWACS if combat is happening on home turf? What are the adv of AWACS over ground based assets during the air-combat?
With home turf, I hope you don't imagine IAF flying all over the pakistani airspace. IAF does not have the resources to dominate the battlefield (It will have an upper hand though). If we are to believe that joint operations are the way to go, we should see IAF carrying out more CAS roles in future. At the same time, both sides will try and mount operations against each other. Here the AWACS will play an important role.

In addition, they will be very useful in maintaining valuable SA/ control over the pakistani air space and help PAF fight the air war. Ground based radars are susceptible to air/missile strikes. This makes the eyrie awacs very effective as an air defence node.
 
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ISAR has been able to resolve such small systems!!! AFAIK, they are limited in use to identifying aircrafts/ ships etc! Could you provide a source which states that ISAR can identify weapons fitted on aircrafts (at 200+ km)..... not a missile already in the air!

ISAR has been employed to identify avian species (birds) beyond visual range.

Feng Zhu; Ying Luo; Qun Zhang; You-Qian Feng; You-Qing Bai; , "ISAR Imaging for Avian Species Identification With Frequency-Stepped Chirp Signals," Geoscience and Remote Sensing Letters, IEEE , vol.7, no.1, pp.151-155, Jan. 2010
 
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What I am trying to say is that the missile is not flying on its own. It will be attached to the aircraft pylon. Since most of the system will be hidden multiple reflective surfaces and since there will be no relative motion of the missile (wrt the aircraft), it is hard to detect the missile alone using ISAR unless it is launched. ISAR is great for ships/ submarine masts, etc as they move even when engines are shut off (roll/ yaw) and this helps identify the whole system! I would appreciate if someone could show the use of ISAR to detect missiles attached to aircrafts.

On a side note, is the Erieye equipped with ISAR? Most systems I know of are on maritime surveillance aircrafts. Thanks in advance!
 
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...awacs they also know that what indian fighter jets weapon carries...
How is this supposed to work? Would you be kind enough to elaborate? I agree that it can detect the type of aircraft but weapons on board!?!? :what:
you can detect (approximates) the type of aircraft, speed, direction, etc using a radar. Once that has been determined, it is possible to filter out standard information and estimate the amount and type of weapons being carried by the plane.

Weapons themselves are big time reflectors, and that is why Stealth fighters carry them on internal bays.

I am not exactly sure how much this tech is applied and with what success, but in theory it is possible. At the very least, you can detect what kind of mission it is carrying out.
Inverse Synthetic Aperture Radar (ISAR) is a technique to generate a two-dimensional high resolution image of a target.
In situations where other radars display only a single unidentifiable bright moving pixel, the ISAR image is often adequate to discriminate between various missiles, military aircraft, and civilian aircraft.

Inverse synthetic aperture radar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Remember the picture of the Indian MKI Kayani allegedly showed the Americans.. :D
What I am trying to say is that the missile is not flying on its own. It will be attached to the aircraft pylon. Since most of the system will be hidden multiple reflective surfaces and since there will be no relative motion of the missile (wrt the aircraft), it is hard to detect the missile alone using ISAR unless it is launched.
The (more expensive) solution is in inverse SAR (iSAR) if the desire is to have a more precise target resolution regarding target structure, not merely target speed, altitude or heading. So here we go...

fdd52f91d3b78c6ac81ce67dc3ec1ed7.jpg


I have posted the above illustration here before and it is important that interested readers understand that is how a radar sees an aircraft. Each dot represent a 'scattering' feature on the body, aka 'scattering point'. It could be anything, from an air vent, to a small UHF comm antenna, to the large vertical stab. Each of the example could have its own scattering points on its own surface. The air vent could have multiple holes or slits and each of them is a scattering point whose combined echo power equal to 'air vent'. So if we go up one level, each elongated oval represent the echo power strength of a distinct scattering point that may or may not be a composit of many smaller scattering points. The largest and most powerful echo would be a wing. For clarity we will not mind the aircraft's fuselage for now.

a8d47cd8248102a0ab2ff5c1fed4fc69.gif


When the wing is in a 'clean' configuration (a) it will present the lowest echo power strength it can possibly give. When the wing is in (b) or (c) for take-off and landing, then we can see that there are additional mechanical contraptions produced by the wing: flaps and slats. They inevitably will increase the wing's overall echo power.

As usual I will provide at least one source lest some people think I making this sh!t up...

Radar imaging and multiple scatter-point localization
The fundamental task of range-Doppler imaging is to reconstruct the spatial function of reflectivity of a target from the returned radar signals. Radar imaging is investigated from the point of view of multiple scatter-point localization. Both motion compensation and image formation are solved simultaneously as a maximum likelihood estimation problem. Generally, the computational load is extremely heavy mainly because a multidimensional search is required. By introducing DFT and utilizing FFT, this may significantly reduce the computational complexity at a sacrifice of imaging quality. A further simplified imaging algorithm is derived for a case of the orbital motion model of the target being a quadratic equation. Computer simulation results are also included.
Scatter points localization mean the question: Are these scatter points in a cluster? So if they are and the cluster persists over time, then we have a valid target, be it a storm cloud or a B-52 bomber.

Now if we add on the wings pylons that carries external fuel tanks and assorted weaponry, all of these items are themselves scattering points that themselves are composits of many smaller scattering points. The next logical step in radar detection WAS to ask: Is it possible to separate out those many smaller scattering points to increase target STRUCTURAL resolutions? There are target characteristics and behavior resolutions, such as speed, altitude and aspect disposition (angle) to the seeking radar. But target STRUCTURAL resolution deeper than what we can obviously dissect: wings, vertical stabs, horizontal stabs, cockpit, etc...Required additional transmission frequencies, pulse characteristics manipulations and related hardware issues that increase system complexities and naturally cost.

The reader must remember that scattering points comes from PHYSICAL STRUCTURES.

Radar Bands
X band radars operate on a wavelength of 2.5-4 cm and a frequency of 8-12 GHz. Because of the smaller wavelength, the X band radar is more sensitive and can detect smaller particles. These radars are used for studies on cloud development because they can detect the tiny water particles and also used to detect light precipitation such as snow.
The highlighted is the clue. Smaller particles are smaller physical structures, are they not? Meters length freqs can only give us target characteristics and behaviors. It is the centimetric and millimetric bands that upon impact then echo off the body that contain the physical details that we want, in other words, the information have been there ALL THIS TIME, in other words, the echo is already telling us that there is a missile (or bomb) on the pylon, we just lack the technological capability to distinguish missile and pylon from each other.

Enter Synthetic Aperature Radar (SAR) and its cousin inverse SAR (iSAR).

In many men's fantasy, the man is a professional photog for Playboy magazine. Say my camera has a physical aperture of one meter and my stride is also one meter. If I take a shot of the model from one position, take one sidestep (one meter) then take a second shot I have just created a virtual or 'synthetic' camera aperture of two meters while the camera's physical aperture is still one meter. If I combine the two shots together, I now have a more detailed version of the model from two different angles. If I am not satisfied, and of course not, I would circle the model at one meter interval, take a shot at each pause point, and continue until I have completed a circle. This is SAR.

What if the model move instead of the camera? If the model turn 90deg and the camera take a shot, now I have a virtual or 'synthetic' aperature of two meters. At the end, after three 90deg turns, I would have a virtual or 'synthetic' aperature of four meters. This is inverse SAR (iSAR). This is completely different from when the camera was the one in motion. Because the model made only four turns I could have a lower resolution of her than when the camera was in motion. This is not good as we want to know as much of her many 'scattering points' as possible. The more we know of her the more issues sold, right? So if the model make only one degree turn per camera shot, at the end, I would have a virtual or 'synthetic' aperature of 360 deg. With iSAR, camera (or radar) aperature is target dependent.

The most important thing to remember in both SAR and iSAR is that there MUST be motion by at least one side. If the seeking radar is in motion, then it is SAR. If the target is in motion, then it is iSAR.

Now what if both the model and the camera are moving at the same time? Not only is she rotating her body (wow) but also moving towards and away from the camera? This is no different than the AWACS and target relationship IF there are SAR and iSAR processing involved. The data processing is not only doubled but tripled because both sides are moving. When the aircraft discharge a missile or bomb from itself, it loses a major scattering point and its overall RCS decrease. At the same time there is a distinct cluster of scattering points moving rapidly away from the aircraft. Any response at this time is the proverbial 'after the fact' action and may be too late.

The more we know about the target, not only of its characteristics and behaviors, but what it looks like BEFORE it make some kind of decision, the better we can formulate a response and perhaps even take preemptive actions in our favor.

We are not yet at the point where we can dissect so much information from an echo that we can see a BVR target with equal clarity as if the target is literally in front of us. Currently at best, the SAR images are like early BW television. So what we do is create algorithms, based upon hardware capability, that if we detect so-and-so spikes inside a larger spike with such-and-such pulse echo characteristics then 'kinda-sorta' guess that it is a fighter or bomber.

For example:

d4f8d1cf01d7340e5f04ed945e017980.jpg


In the bow view of the above ship image, we can see there are many scattering points, from the mast top to the anchor and anywhere in between. Ships on water are not static. As a ship in a side-side rolling motion, those many scattering points create localized and PREDICTABLE Doppler shifts. So we create an algorithm within our iSAR processing to say that if we have a highly localized and predictable Doppler shift cluster -- classify the target as a ship. Better yet...Ships of different sizes will have different roll rates. A destroyer is the lightest so it will have the highest roll rate. Carriers and tankers can have as much as 30 seconds in calm sea.

So when a fleet is in motion in rough sea, destroyers can have double digits roll degrees from their equilibrium while the aircraft carrier flagship will barely break five degrees from its equilibrium. An airborne iSAR processor will see many localized and predictable Doppler shifts against what it knows to be water background, it will analyze each cluster and see distinctions between the many clusters, it will see the clusters with the highest roll rates are in a circle around the cluster with the lowest roll rate, voila: a fleet with at least one capital ship and assorted escorts. We do not need to see this fleet in details. From Doppler shifts alone, iSAR processing already alerted us to a naval threat and based upon that large cluster with the lowest roll rate, we can customize our defenses to meet an aircraft carrier, or at least we suspect it to be an aircraft carrier.

Not all airborne radars have SAR capability...
Wedgetail - Australia's Pocket AWACS
Australia's "Pocket AWACS"

The only capability missing is the JSTARS style high resolution SAR surface mapping and GMTI surface target tracking, both of which are secondary capabilities in the regional geographical environment, dominated by littoral scenarios (and both of which may be growth options given declining long term costs in computer hardware).

It is pointed out that a missile is fixed to the pylon and exhibit no motion relative to the pylon, the wing and eventually the aircraft itself, therefore iSAR processing on this scattering point is not possible. This is incorrect. True...That the missile is fixed but we are living in a 3D environment. Go back to the Playboy model and camera example for a moment. If the model raise an arm in front of her very attractive front side, if either the camera or the model move, her arm will clearly exhibit different motion than her body. Take a soda can, open the tab and leave it raised. Now move the can any direction. The raised tab will 'move' of sort. With iSAR processing, what matter is the scattering point's movement that is relative to the seeker radar, not in contrast to the main body that carries said scattering point.

International Ice Patrol
The ISAR is a synthetic aperture radar mode that takes advantage of target motion relative to the antenna.

http://stl.uml.edu/PubLib/Giles, Acq xband move.pdf
...generating doppler shifted and standard ISAR imagery of either/both the moving and stationary vehicle.

Tabulated is the center frequency phase shift one might observe for a moving vehicle using this radar. Since in-scene objects have different relative velocities, i.e. the top and bottom of the tank tracks in reference to the tank frame, each will appear to separate in the doppler shifted images and HRR profiles.
The top track exhibit a different Doppler shift than the bottom track. This is on the same vehicle. Another example from the same source...

At a Doppler velocity bin capturing the scattered signal from the target’s chassis and hull, observed in the center ISAR image is scattering beyond the vehicle’s range extent generated from a pair of louvered compartments in the back of the BTR-70. Scattered signal was observed from the top of the BTR-70’s four hubs, and tires, at Doppler velocities of 1.4, and 2, times the chassis velocity, respectively.
As shown, a body's surface features will generate their own Doppler shifts, from louvered windows to wheel hubs. Wheel hubs move, but not windows, but because the tank's surface protrusions are 3D features on the body, when the body itself is motion with many redirections, those surface features will generate their own Doppler shifts.

For the aircraft, the missile's radar echo may be masked by the aircraft's echo, but it is there nevertheless. When the aircraft maneuver, the missile will present its own Doppler shift to the seeker iSAR.

Creating an effective an airborne SAR/iSAR processing platform is not a casual endeavor in development and in purchase. Against other airborne targets such as small and agile fighters, SAR/iSAR processing can be impossible under certain conditions such as if the target is in terrain following and terrain avoidance flight mode. Basic SAR operation require the seeker to be looking at an area from a side perspective. If the target is behind a ground feature, a hill or even a building, and if the seek angle is low enough, the target is invisible to the SAR seeker.

In summation...It is already feasible to distinguish a fighter and bomber thru SAR/iSAR processing...But it is expensive and the system require high levels of training in usage and maintenance.

Finally...Do not mix up inverse-SAR (iSAR) and interferometric-SAR (InSAR). The latter type, InSAR, involve satellite imaging...

What is InSAR?
InSAR stands for Interferometric Synthetic Aperture Radar. This is thus a remote sensing technique that uses radar satellite images.
...And that is another can of worms.
 
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Thanks a ton for the information. It clears up many of the questions I had and the misconceptions I harboured. :)
 
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In many men's fantasy, the man is a professional photog for Playboy magazine. Say my camera has a physical aperture of one meter and my stride is also one meter. If I take a shot of the model from one position, take one sidestep (one meter) then take a second shot I have just created a virtual or 'synthetic' camera aperture of two meters while the camera's physical aperture is still one meter. If I combine the two shots together, I now have a more detailed version of the model from two different angles. If I am not satisfied, and of course not, I would circle the model at one meter interval, take a shot at each pause point, and continue until I have completed a circle. This is SAR.

What if the model move instead of the camera? If the model turn 90deg and the camera take a shot, now I have a virtual or 'synthetic' aperature of two meters. At the end, after three 90deg turns, I would have a virtual or 'synthetic' aperature of four meters. This is inverse SAR (iSAR). This is completely different from when the camera was the one in motion. Because the model made only four turns I could have a lower resolution of her than when the camera was in motion. This is not good as we want to know as much of her many 'scattering points' as possible. The more we know of her the more issues sold, right? So if the model make only one degree turn per camera shot, at the end, I would have a virtual or 'synthetic' aperature of 360 deg. With iSAR, camera (or radar) aperature is target dependent.


:lol: Gambit i would have never understood it until the "playboy" example!!! but thank you!!! for a great post!!! very detailed & very well explained!!!!! :yahoo:
 
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:lol: Gambit i would have never understood it until the "playboy" example!!! but thank you!!! for a great post!!! very detailed & very well explained!!!!! :yahoo:
Yer welcome...I used that example only when my class were all men and when things were less 'complicated'. No man failed to grasp the basic concepts.
 
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Yer welcome...I used that example only when my class were all men and when things were less 'complicated'. No man failed to grasp the basic concepts.

...very creative Gambit. You should write a book and for women in your readership you may substitute the playboy model with Gerald Butler or equivalent.
 
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Hi Sirji

Murari Lal ki Rangeen sapne dekhna band karo:blink:

If Indian Airforce has to attack there would be in force multiplier and combination of many aircraft back by SAM S-300, Advance Pine radar (Ground Base) and AESA Ballon Radar,UAV ,Satellite Guidance, and much more

Imagine small Comparison One mission :woot:

3 SU-30MKI
3 Mirage
5 MIG-21 Bison
3 MIG 29B
2 MIG 27
2 Tu-22M3 bomber
1 Battery of S-300 SAM (Range more than 180KM) and Support Radar or Spider SAM
1 AESA Ballon based Radar (Range more than 180 KM)
3 UAV's
Backed by ground based Advance Pine Radar (Range more than 300KM) and Satellite communication (forget about AWACS) :woot::cheesy:

How would you Counter it... :sniper:
As per cold start and latest strategy India need to Bomb Max 300KM inside PAK :devil:

How many F16, J10, JF17,F7 and Mirage andSAM and Other Radars will be brought in to counter India's attacks :cheers:
 
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Hi Sirji

Murari Lal ki Rangeen sapne dekhna band karo

If Indian Airforce has to attack there would be in force multiplier and combination of many aircraft back by SAM S-300, Advance Pine radar (Ground Base) and AESA Ballon Radar,UAV ,Satellite Guidance, and much more

Imagine small Comparison One mission

3 SU-30MKI
3 Mirage
5 MIG-21 Bison
3 MIG 29B
2 MIG 27
2 Tu-22M3 bomber
1 Battery of S-300 SAM and Support Radar or Spider SAM
1 AESA Ballon based Radar
3 UAV's
Backed by ground based Advance Pine Radar and Satellite communication (forget about AWACS)

How would you Counter it...
As per cold start India and latest strategy India need to Bomb Max 300KM inside PAK

How many F16, J10, JF17,F7 and Mirage will take part and what about SAM and and Other Radars

:disagree::disagree::disagree::hitwall::hitwall:

:rofl::rofl:
 
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Hi Sirji

Murari Lal ki Rangeen sapne dekhna band karo

If Indian Airforce has to attack there would be in force multiplier and combination of many aircraft back by SAM S-300, Advance Pine radar (Ground Base) and AESA Ballon Radar,UAV ,Satellite Guidance, and much more

Imagine small Comparison One mission :woot:

3 SU-30MKI
3 Mirage
5 MIG-21 Bison
3 MIG 29B
2 MIG 27
2 Tu-22M3 bomber
1 Battery of S-300 SAM (Range more than 180KM) and Support Radar or Spider SAM
1 AESA Ballon based Radar (Range more than 180 KM)
3 UAV's
Backed by ground based Advance Pine Radar (Range more than 300KM) and Satellite communication (forget about AWACS) :woot::cheesy:

How would you Counter it... :sniper:
As per cold start and latest strategy India need to Bomb Max 300KM inside PAK :devil:

How many F16, J10, JF17,F7 and Mirage andSAM and Other Radars will be brought in to counter India's attacks :cheers:


damn another fan boy coming straight from Bharat Rakshak & has just watched a sunny deol movie! :mod:

IAF Grounds MIG-27 | Indian Airforce | Accidents | Checks | Engine Faults | Turbine Blades - Oneindia News


:sniper:
 
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