PAF Still Holds Record For F-16 Induction

[Raider 21]

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A classic read. Brings back ummer memories of Sharjah...

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

While we did induct the F16 first, however , later we never capitalized on this

Today for example

• Turkey operates close to 240 F16 C/D and they also use their own Software and Hardware
• Egypt also operates close to 218 F16 C/D

Since 1999 the F16 Program became Stagnant
The fleet got revitalized after Honorable Musharaf Sahib's wisdom and Cooperation with USA post year 2001

The Upgrade from Block A/B to C/D standard and arrival of New F16 C/D freshened up the Airforce, however, we certainly need more inductions

 

[Yaseen1]

Results of F-16 versus Eurofighter Typhoon simulations are mixed but F-35 represent a generational leap from both and have absurd kill ratios in RED FLAG simulations. Of-course, at the end of the day, it comes down to how well the pilots understand these aircraft and what they can do in demanding situations.

The latest F-16 Block 70/72 is better than any variant of Eurofighter Typhoon at present.

Even F-16 MLU configuration which is on the level of Block 50 proved to more than a match for Russian Su-30 MKI in recent clashes.

I think mirage 2000 was enough for f16
and eurofighters are also upgrading and upgradation is not limited to f16
Mirage2000 beat f16 multiple times and also turkish f16 shot down by greek mirage 2000

Simulated dog fight between f16 and mirage 2000.mirage remained in dominant position

Turkish f16 shot down by mirage 2000

 

[GriffinsRule]

Incredible discussions of the then ACM Anwar Shamim and the US team leading to the F-16s talks. Reading this snippet from his autobiography its apparent how determined and confident was PAF to induct the F-16 in record time.
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A very revealing book indeed. Title is 'Cutting Edge PAF' if people are interested in buying it.

 

[Hassan Guy]

Project Azm has to develop the F-16 of the next generation.

 

[Signalian]

A very revealing book indeed. Title is 'Cutting Edge PAF' if people are interested in buying it.

Isn't this what he said about F-16 for PAF ?

Q. What is your opinion about the F-16 deal?

A:Though the finest aircraft of its kind we should never have gone for the F16s. Like I said earlier we never learn from our past mistakes. The Americans have a very poor political track record with us; they let us down in 65 and 71 despite we being members of their CENTO pact. On the other hand France has been a reliable friend, we should have gone for the Mirage-2000 instead. I don't know but we hear about kickbacks in the F16 deal but NAB does not seem to think so or they don't want to go that far. But I do know of a number of ex PAF officers who could not afford a car, now own flats in England — thanks to British weekly lottery I guess.

or was it Cecil Chaudhary ?

 

[GriffinsRule]

Isn't this what he said about F-16 for PAF ?

Q. What is your opinion about the F-16 deal?

A:Though the finest aircraft of its kind we should never have gone for the F16s. Like I said earlier we never learn from our past mistakes. The Americans have a very poor political track record with us; they let us down in 65 and 71 despite we being members of their CENTO pact. On the other hand France has been a reliable friend, we should have gone for the Mirage-2000 instead. I don't know but we hear about kickbacks in the F16 deal but NAB does not seem to think so or they don't want to go that far. But I do know of a number of ex PAF officers who could not afford a car, now own flats in England — thanks to British weekly lottery I guess.

or was it Cecil Chaudhary ?

ACM Anwar Shamim did not say that in the book so must be someone else who did not get commission from the sale of Mirage 2000s?

I will quote exactly what he says in the book and you can come to your own conclusion.


... In late 1979, I was called by President Zia-ul-Haw to discuss air defence of our nuclear assets by Kahuta. ... I told the President that Kahuta was a totally indefensible site because it was three minutes flying time from the border whereas our reaction time was about 8 minutes. ... The logical question he asked was, "How to safeguard the most vital deterrent in our armoury in that case?" I replied, "Sir, get us the most modern aircraft along with the latest weapons, and we will destroy their advanced nuclear facility at Trombay as quid pro quo, if they embark upon this rash course of action." ... He asked which aircraft you have in mind. I replied we have done our homework and in our analysis F-16 aircraft, with the latest weapons, is the best and most suited to fulfil our needs. ... While discussing he asked, "What happens if the Americans put embargo on sale and supply of aircraft and spare parts as they have done in the past?" I said that we plan to buy two years spare parts as war reserves, and if they ever impose an embargo we can keep the aircraft flying for many years. The spares are also available from vendors but at higher cost. The only major effect of embargo is that any improvements in the aircraft performance are not passed on to user. However, safety matters are notified and made available despite the embargo. ... If we buy aircraft from Europe, and if the makers of that aircraft have used parts made in America, the Americans, in all likelihood, will apply an embargo on the sale of that aircraft. I told him that we had short listed two types of aircraft. One was F-16 and the other was Mirage-2000 from France. The Mirage-2000 was also good but not better than F-16 and spare support was even more expensive because too few aircraft had been built till then. The price difference was very high, ie F-16 cost thirteen and a half million dollars per fully loaded aircraft whereas Mirage-2000 was almost double the price for a similar configuration.
After listen to the briefing he said that he was scheduled to visit USA next year but he added that he was not very hopeful while Mr Carter was the president. He added that we should have better chances to get the F-16s when Mr Reagan assumed the Presidency the following year...
In November 1981 a team headed by Mr James Buckely, US Under-Secretary of State came to Pakistan to discuss nuts and bolts of the military package. While they were discussing this at President Zia's residence at night, Mr Buckley disclosed that instead of the F-16s the administration was offering F-5E followed by F-5G (later renamed F-20), a brand new aircraft. I had flown that aircraft in America and found it unsuitable for our needs. ... the President told them that he would enquire from the Air Cheif about his opinion on the type of aircraft. President Zia woke me up at 1145pm on green line, to ask my opinion regarding the alternate choice to F-16s they were offering. I straight away told the President to say 'no' to any aircraft other than F-16s."

He goes on to talk about the induction bit posted earlier.
He then compares the F-16 and Mirage-2000s performance etc but cost and ratio vis-a-vis India were the two major swaying factors in favor of the Viper.

"... The most important difference between the two aircraft did not have to do with performance, but the price. While the unit cost of the F-16 was to the tune of US $13.5 million per unit, including on board support equipment, the Mirage-2000 came in at US $25 million per aircraft without ancillaries. A fly-worthy Mirage-2000 would have cost as much as US $30 million which was more than double that of an F-16. ... We knew the Americans would not give the Indians the F-16s or the F-18s because of their very close links to Soviet aircraft industry. The Indians did approach the Americans to purchase F-18s, but were told to buy Mirage-2000 instead, so as to maintain the balance in the region. However, to mollify them, the Americans gave them generous economic aid so that they could buy Mirage-2000. If we had opted for Mirage-2000, with the finances available to us, we would have been able to purchase about 20 aircraft whereas the Indians would have bought about 60+ Mirage-2000s thus negating our efforts to make the PAF technological superior force. These factors undoubtedly weighed very heavily when we decided to go for the F-16.

Here I will add another portion that was being talked about in the Mirage thread about the A-5s. Here it is from the CAS at the time himself.

"Early 1982 the Chinese government granted financial support for purchase of equipment for our armed forces. Whereas the Army and the PAF made plans for the full utilization of grant but the Pak Navy did not want to utilize $100 million for purchasing submarines from China because, rightly so, they wanted to purchase more modern submarines fitted with new generation of equipment. Through interaction between the services we were in picture regarding the dilemma of the Pak Navy. The PAF studied the requirement and felt that we could utilize the grant very effectively if the JCC decided to allot us the Navy's share of funds. We decided to purchase Chinese A-5 aircraft to enhance our ground support capability and to provide us with very cheap flying hours to train our pilots. Since the cost of flying per hour on Mirages and F-16s is very high, whereas cost on Chinese aircraft is very low, addition of A-5 would be cost effective for the PAF. ... It became an excellent weapons platform with all the changes and additions of ancillary equipment acquired from western countries."

PAF also inducted AM-39 Exocet in January 1982 around the same time, and I am sure it had to do with making up for using their share of the Chinese grant.

"Allegations of Kickbacks in Purchase of F-16s
F-16s were purchased through Foreign Military Sales (FMS) on my suggestion. Such deals are done between governments and therefore no agents are allowed. This is guaranteed by the US government. In fact Secretary of State is required to report to Congress of any wrong doing. If the buyer suspects any hanky panky, they can request the US Government to carry out an investigation. If any foul play is established, the CEO and the directors of the company are liable for prosecution. The rules for FMS are available from the Department of Defence Purchase. I am proud to have saved millions of dollars to my country by dealing via FMS...."

He also talks about the article written by Cecil Choudhry in Defence Journal, but not relevant to this thread.

 

[Signalian]

ACM Anwar Shamim did not say that in the book so must be someone else who did not get commission from the sale of Mirage 2000s?

Will come back to this later since i posted from a link i found.

I will quote exactly what he says in the book and you can come to your own conclusion.


... In late 1979, I was called by President Zia-ul-Haw to discuss air defence of our nuclear assets by Kahuta. ... I told the President that Kahuta was a totally indefensible site because it was three minutes flying time from the border whereas our reaction time was about 8 minutes. ... The logical question he asked was, "How to safeguard the most vital deterrent in our armoury in that case?" I replied, "Sir, get us the most modern aircraft along with the latest weapons, and we will destroy their advanced nuclear facility at Trombay as quid pro quo, if they embark upon this rash course of action." ... He asked which aircraft you have in mind. I replied we have done our homework and in our analysis F-16 aircraft, with the latest weapons, is the best and most suited to fulfil our needs. ... While discussing he asked, "What happens if the Americans put embargo on sale and supply of aircraft and spare parts as they have done in the past?" I said that we plan to buy two years spare parts as war reserves, and if they ever impose an embargo we can keep the aircraft flying for many years. The spares are also available from vendors but at higher cost. The only major effect of embargo is that any improvements in the aircraft performance are not passed on to user. However, safety matters are notified and made available despite the embargo. ... If we buy aircraft from Europe, and if the makers of that aircraft have used parts made in America, the Americans, in all likelihood, will apply an embargo on the sale of that aircraft. I told him that we had short listed two types of aircraft. One was F-16 and the other was Mirage-2000 from France. The Mirage-2000 was also good but not better than F-16 and spare support was even more expensive because too few aircraft had been built till then. The price difference was very high, ie F-16 cost thirteen and a half million dollars per fully loaded aircraft whereas Mirage-2000 was almost double the price for a similar configuration.
After listen to the briefing he said that he was scheduled to visit USA next year but he added that he was not very hopeful while Mr Carter was the president. He added that we should have better chances to get the F-16s when Mr Reagan assumed the Presidency the following year...
In November 1981 a team headed by Mr James Buckely, US Under-Secretary of State came to Pakistan to discuss nuts and bolts of the military package. While they were discussing this at President Zia's residence at night, Mr Buckley disclosed that instead of the F-16s the administration was offering F-5E followed by F-5G (later renamed F-20), a brand new aircraft. I had flown that aircraft in America and found it unsuitable for our needs. ... the President told them that he would enquire from the Air Cheif about his opinion on the type of aircraft. President Zia woke me up at 1145pm on green line, to ask my opinion regarding the alternate choice to F-16s they were offering. I straight away told the President to say 'no' to any aircraft other than F-16s."

He goes on to talk about the induction bit posted earlier.
He then compares the F-16 and Mirage-2000s performance etc but cost and ratio vis-a-vis India were the two major swaying factors in favor of the Viper.

"... The most important difference between the two aircraft did not have to do with performance, but the price. While the unit cost of the F-16 was to the tune of US $13.5 million per unit, including on board support equipment, the Mirage-2000 came in at US $25 million per aircraft without ancillaries. A fly-worthy Mirage-2000 would have cost as much as US $30 million which was more than double that of an F-16. ... We knew the Americans would not give the Indians the F-16s or the F-18s because of their very close links to Soviet aircraft industry. The Indians did approach the Americans to purchase F-18s, but were told to buy Mirage-2000 instead, so as to maintain the balance in the region. However, to mollify them, the Americans gave them generous economic aid so that they could buy Mirage-2000. If we had opted for Mirage-2000, with the finances available to us, we would have been able to purchase about 20 aircraft whereas the Indians would have bought about 60+ Mirage-2000s thus negating our efforts to make the PAF technological superior force. These factors undoubtedly weighed very heavily when we decided to go for the F-16.

Here I will add another portion that was being talked about in the Mirage thread about the A-5s. Here it is from the CAS at the time himself.

"Early 1982 the Chinese government granted financial support for purchase of equipment for our armed forces. Whereas the Army and the PAF made plans for the full utilization of grant but the Pak Navy did not want to utilize $100 million for purchasing submarines from China because, rightly so, they wanted to purchase more modern submarines fitted with new generation of equipment. Through interaction between the services we were in picture regarding the dilemma of the Pak Navy. The PAF studied the requirement and felt that we could utilize the grant very effectively if the JCC decided to allot us the Navy's share of funds. We decided to purchase Chinese A-5 aircraft to enhance our ground support capability and to provide us with very cheap flying hours to train our pilots. Since the cost of flying per hour on Mirages and F-16s is very high, whereas cost on Chinese aircraft is very low, addition of A-5 would be cost effective for the PAF. ... It became an excellent weapons platform with all the changes and additions of ancillary equipment acquired from western countries."

PAF also inducted AM-39 Exocet in January 1982 around the same time, and I am sure it had to do with making up for using their share of the Chinese grant.

"Allegations of Kickbacks in Purchase of F-16s
F-16s were purchased through Foreign Military Sales (FMS) on my suggestion. Such deals are done between governments and therefore no agents are allowed. This is guaranteed by the US government. In fact Secretary of State is required to report to Congress of any wrong doing. If the buyer suspects any hanky panky, they can request the US Government to carry out an investigation. If any foul play is established, the CEO and the directors of the company are liable for prosecution. The rules for FMS are available from the Department of Defence Purchase. I am proud to have saved millions of dollars to my country by dealing via FMS...."

He also talks about the article written by Cecil Choudhry in Defence Journal, but not relevant to this thread.

Looks like USA wisely plays both sides: Pakistan and India.

 

[Foxtrot Delta]

High time to retire f-16s focus on the future

 

[litman]

While we did induct the F16 first, however , later we never capitalized on this

Today for example

• Turkey operates close to 240 F16 C/D and they also use their own Software and Hardware
• Egypt also operates close to 218 F16 C/D

Since 1999 the F16 Program became Stagnant
The fleet got revitalized after Honorable Musharaf Sahib's wisdom and Cooperation with USA post year 2001

The Upgrade from Block A/B to C/D standard and arrival of New F16 C/D freshened up the Airforce, however, we certainly need more inductions

sell the entire country to USA and you may get 100s of F-16s and even F-22s.
wisdom and cooperation.
only po*n stars have similar kind of wisdom and cooperation.