PAF should think seriously with a new angle after Abbot Abad drama !!

[MastanKhan]

Gentlemen,

You people are still talking about the PAF F 16's engaging the USAF F 18's----don't you people have any knowledge about the electronic technology or we all are illeterates over here----.

Seems like the majority of you was not even born during the Falkland wars-----so here is what happened----the argentinian aircraft popped up the horizon and launched their exocet missile at I believe sheffield---the british aircraft carrier and severely damaged it---. The british got ver concerned about hte capabilities of the exocet---so they went running to the french----later on none of the exocet missiles launched by the argentinians got a lock on the target----which was later found out that the french had given the british the codes for the missiles.

Now----which superstar---super genius---a pakistani mensa---over here thinks that the americans don't have the codes for their amraams or the codes on their radars in the f16's to make them worthless-----.

You people really believe that all these amraams sold to other nations by the u s defence industry can be used against the american aircraft----think again if you have any doubts.

Pak didnot have any aircraft to launch at the americans persay---.

 

[Luftwaffe]

MastanKhan when I look back it all seems so funny...

We've barely our hands on JF-17s and years to master them.
FC-20 is not yet delivered, And we're hopping into the stealth JFT project.
It all seems too messed up, not that I'm bashing it is just too over whelming of projects for PAF.

Just my thoughts either go for FC-20 or go for alleged semi stealth JFT invest in one project and take it to the elevation or keep experimenting..

 

[Pfpilot]

We should work towards an efficient setup where we have one, maybe two kinds of fighters, with a lot of uniformity and commonality...we simply cannot afford such a complicated setup with little funding.
What was the point in procuring these f-16s when it is clear our most pressing matter is on the western border. Against the Americans, they are utterly useless and eliminate any leverage a supposed military power should theoretically have. We wasted our precious few funds on an aircraft that is a glorified a-5 fantan, in the sort of role it is increasingly occupying in our air force...well at least the fantans could be moved around without asking for permission.

 

[MastanKhan]

MastanKhan when I look back it all seems so funny...

We've barely our hands on JF-17s and years to master them.
FC-20 is not yet delivered, And we're hopping into the stealth JFT project.
It all seems too messed up, not that I'm bashing it is just too over whelming of projects for PAF.

Just my thoughts either go for FC-20 or go for alleged semi stealth JFT invest in one project and take it to the elevation or keep experimenting..

Luftwaffe,

I believe that paf has lost a massive oppurtunity that it had in the early 90's and then between 2002 and 2005-----I very much doubt that it would ever be able to overome the deficit----it was a catchup game before----now it is mostly a lost cause----.

I think that the arrogance of the PAF " the man behind the machine "----concept got the best of them----even on this board----so many members moderators / super moderators / think tank members etc etc etc all hogging BS about this MAN BEHIND THE MACHINE MYTH ---AND THESE PEOPLE ARE TOTALLY LOST IN THEIR BELIEF---living in some la la land where the univers is composed of the ideology spread by the PAF pilots-----.

These treasounous thieving criminals have destroyed the integrity of the nation---our nation----playing these little games of puny little children----all you pakistanis on this board----look at the faces of these so called warriors of the air----these pathetic miserable traitors---the nation gave them everything they wanted---status---prestige---honor---dignity---the nation made them like GODS----the nation worshipped them bigger than GODS----and these scums let us down in the worst possible moment of our history----.

All you super stud moderators who argued with me about the man behind the machine---you first have to see the machine to fight it----you first have to have a lock on it to launch your missiles at it----you ought to have missiles that can lock in the first place to make a launch-----what do you find on the day of judgement----you got tur-d. You got nothing---.

Isn't it time for some of you to resign from your post in indignity---have any of you any integrity left at all----if so---then some of you need to vacate your position for the deseving ones---.

Now that the myth of the PAF has been busted---there is no coming back----paf is has bitten the dust---its image has been shattered---the fear factor has been taken away----. Fear is the key---in fear the enemy pilot makes mistakes and makes judgemental errors-----once that is gone---the playing field is to the one with numbers and superior technology---.

FC20---what is Fc20 going to do----not a diddly sh-it----the chinese general already stated that its electronics warfare suite was inferior to the blk 52----the missile sd10----is just being maybe in its final testing stages----compare it to the russian Rtype bvr or the amraam or the south african which have already been in service for 5 and 10 years---how is it technically possible for a brand spanking new item from china to be in league with those from technically superior nation making them for the last many a years---like russia---like south africa---israel---france---the uk or the united states----.

These nation have been trying out these weapons for over a 200 years of combined experience---and here we have china---just barely into its first major true bvr missile and without its even being in serial production ( it might barely be ) it has been put on the pedastal beyond reproach.

Now our prime minister is in china today----wanting to buy the best of the best that china has to offer us----the wish list of the paf will be handed over to the chinese on a fast track basis.

It is not the fear of the american strike force that concerns tha paf----it is the iaf now that has become a problem----the myth has been busted----the fear has dissipated---when there is no fear---then the most coward of a coward becomes a very dangerous adversary and the indians are no cowards----there was just a veil of concern---that veil has been lifted.

As I stated that the U S is not a concern---because you can do nothing about them---they will come and just wipe us out if they wanted to----they already showed us their hand---they didnot need to show it to us---we should already would have known what they were capable of----but we were lulled into believing the myth created by our high and might---THE MAN BEHIND THE MACHINE----.

YOU CAN ONLY ONTROL THE CONTROLLABLE.

To you superstars of this board---there were from 60000 to a 100000 thousand iraqi troops waiting for the american soldiers to come fight them on the kuwaiti saudi border---these troops were entrenched in sand trenches----.

Well the american soldiers never came----but the tanks came---with humoungous bulldozer blades in front of them----and they swept from ones side to the frontline to the other and burried the iraqis alive in the sand graves----a minimum of 60000 and close to a 100000 thousand burried alive----..

My young pakistanis---are you seeing the buildup of anti pakistan mindset in the u s of a----fear it my my young man----fear it.


You know why to fear it---because it is time for pakistani and pakistan to suffer the "Azab a Ilahi"---THE WRATH OF GOD----the timing is right----the nation has totally gone astray----there is no justice for the weak and the poor---innocent people women and girls are killed in the name of karo kari---and the men go scott free----husbands kill their wives of land and preperty and then according to fake islamic shariah law the children forgive their father who is then set free by the criminal judges---.

The life of man has no value in pakistan---criminals walk without preejudice and honest hide in shame----don't you people think that the time is right for a clean up for the nation----.

Should we let america do it for us---or are there thjose amongst us who want to do the cleansing.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Actually it is easier to kill the remnants of al qaeda----take out and neutralize all the young foreigners in fata and waziristan--execute them as well in a millitary action--spare no middle eastern foreigners living in waziristan---pak millitary needs to redeem itself----that is the easiest way out---any apologists for al qaeda and taliban and arab foreigners and young fanatics from europe and america need to be taken care of----.

What do you pakistanis want----you want to see your dead families and children and women and mothers and sisters and fathers and brothers and sons and daughters----you want your women and familes molested---and assaulted----.

And I know that none of you are afraid to die---that is not the point----but the point is what would your death achive----if it did achive something---then the struggle is worthwhile---but when the massacre is ruthless and one sided----the sacrifice is worthless.

So---do what should have been done 9 years ago---.

 

[A1Kaid]

Calm down...When people say man behind the machine that means personal training is a major factor however that doesn't mean it is the sole factor. If you have a high quality machine but an incompetent man vs a mid quality machine and a competent man the lateral does have a fighting chance that is the basis of it...


US isn't going to wage a full fledged war, you overestimate and hype the US's response and underestimate Pakistan's. The fact is the US has 80,000+ soldiers in AFG and NATO forces there as well all heavily dependent on supply lines via Pakistan. Your suggesting as if Pakistan hasn't modernized or doesn't understand modern electronic warfare, it's upgraded it's doctrine I assure you. The western troops specifically US are bogged down for 10 years in AFG, the economy is in a recession in spite of what others say, $14 trillion national debt, borrowing billions from China, etc. Most of the European countries aren't going to support a war against nuclear Pakistan, especially UK, huge Pakistani diaspora there will cause an uproar.

Realistically, the troops in Afghanistan are very vulnerable to Pakistani military. If need be the Indian ocean and surrounding territories, skies above can all be blasted and radiated by atoms, sharply rendering the technological superiority.

 

[ANG]

Hi, Mr. MK raises some excellent points. For years, the Pakistani public was fed this “bull” of the invincibility of the PAF. This raid brought that notion crashing down to reality. However, one should not be to harsh on the PAF though, they simply cannot compete with the USAF. There is no comparison. The defense budget for the USAF is greater than the entire GDP of Pakistan. There is also a day and night difference in their equipment capabilities.

CIA used stealth drones to monitor Bin Laden: report | World | DAWN.COM

An interesting question this incidence does raise is whether the PAF is prepared to take on the IAF. In my opinion, it is woefully ill equipped. The PAF wasted a whole decade (90s) trying to get the Pressler amendment removed, and like a crack addict kept paying for the embargoed F-16s. They should have asked for their money back, and taken their business elsewhere. They could have either bought the Mirage-2000 line, or kicked off the JF-17 project earlier. The JF-17 project really started in late 1999.

Pakistan now is left with Trojan horse filled F-16s, old F-7s, 60's era souped up Mirage III/Vs, and newer untried Chinese planes. The Chinese have made a lot of strides in avionics, radars and BVRs, but a lot of it is untried/untested. I am glad Pakistan is investing in Chinese platforms, but they have yet to mature and in the time they do, western equipment will mature even more.

One good thing is that the Chinese have had access to Soviet/Russian technology and have tried to improve on that. I remember reading that they got their initial start on BVR missiles by examining Soviet era BVR missiles, transferred via the Ukraine.

However, in this day and age, avionics and electronics are key and air battles are fought from a distance. The IAF has access to some of the most sophisticated ECM and jamming technology via Israel. I do not think the Chinese/PAF systems are currently at this level, but that is only my opinion.

Lastly, Pakistan is no position to cut-off supplies to Afghanistan. Pakistan is in over its head in debt, and is begging the IMF for loans just to pay the interest. Pakistan claims it will collect 1.9Trillion in taxes (yeah right!) in 2012, and of that 1Trillion will go straight into debt servicing. That does not leave much for defense, development, education and health. The current Pakistan government, like an obedient hijra, also agreed to return the stealth helicopter wreckage.

My point it, Pakistan is too financially weak to buy much equipment, and certain is in no position to challenge anyone economically. She is too dependent on foreign aid.

 

[MastanKhan]

A1kaid,

Who is talking about war with the u s----the issue is with india now----pakistan is woefully euiped to fight against india.

It is a misnomer about training----a better equipped machinery would have a better trained operator---plus an operator who has a better equipped machine for a longer time would naturally be able to operate it at its maximum capacity in a more capable manner---.

It is amazing to see people arguing about that---when the computer in the plane can look search and lock onto a target on its own wihtout any pilot input or effort----it is just asking the pilot to launch the first missile and continue on to the next and next and next target and keep launching the bvr missiles and after the pilot has unloaded, he can bug off the battlefield----putting it in layman's language.

On top of all that our air force has lesser numbers of capable airplanes---which overall carry lesser number of bvr's----it is not a good idea to find it in the battle field on day one in the very first hour that our resources are woefully little---.

We don't need to match them up one on one----but 50---75 eurofighters or rafael would do the job well against our adversary----. So if the indians go for the rafael---we need to go for eurofighter and vice versa----.

 

[GEMINI]

Just to add with you.
Buying any good weapon shall be filling the time gap only but we must remember Wars cannot be won by borrowed or bought technology( reference your Argentinean example). What we need in the long run is to develop our self and for that we need education, in fact higher education. Remember how much engineering PHD's we produce in an year? and we think of fighting a nation with the largest R&D budget. So invest in education/ R&D and let the time pass we shall get our fruit in time inshallah.

 

[atlantis_cn]

A1kaid,

Who is talking about war with the u s----the issue is with india now----pakistan is woefully euiped to fight against india.

It is a misnomer about training----a better equipped machinery would have a better trained operator---plus an operator who has a better equipped machine for a longer time would naturally be able to operate it at its maximum capacity in a more capable manner---.

It is amazing to see people arguing about that---when the computer in the plane can look search and lock onto a target on its own wihtout any pilot input or effort----it is just asking the pilot to launch the first missile and continue on to the next and next and next target and keep launching the bvr missiles and after the pilot has unloaded, he can bug off the battlefield----putting it in layman's language.

On top of all that our air force has lesser numbers of capable airplanes---which overall carry lesser number of bvr's----it is not a good idea to find it in the battle field on day one in the very first hour that our resources are woefully little---.

We don't need to match them up one on one----but 50---75 eurofighters or rafael would do the job well against our adversary----. So if the indians go for the rafael---we need to go for eurofighter and vice versa----.

Why I still feel that you are not a Pakistani? Do you really have any idea what you're talking about????

Mind you just take a look at the figure below?
Estimates of future GDP for both countries:
2015 2020 2030 2040
India 1,900,000 2,848,000 6,683,000 16,510,000
Pakistan 206,000 268,000 497,000 1,026,000

Now you tell me how can Pakistan match India on anything with only a tenth of Indian's GDP??? A TENTH, man! You sincerely think 100 eurofighters will help??????? Wake up and see the real problem of Pakistan!!!

 

[A1Kaid]

A1kaid,

Who is talking about war with the u s----the issue is with india now----pakistan is woefully euiped to fight against india.

It is a misnomer about training----a better equipped machinery would have a better trained operator---plus an operator who has a better equipped machine for a longer time would naturally be able to operate it at its maximum capacity in a more capable manner---.

It is amazing to see people arguing about that---when the computer in the plane can look search and lock onto a target on its own wihtout any pilot input or effort----it is just asking the pilot to launch the first missile and continue on to the next and next and next target and keep launching the bvr missiles and after the pilot has unloaded, he can bug off the battlefield----putting it in layman's language.

On top of all that our air force has lesser numbers of capable airplanes---which overall carry lesser number of bvr's----it is not a good idea to find it in the battle field on day one in the very first hour that our resources are woefully little---.

We don't need to match them up one on one----but 50---75 eurofighters or rafael would do the job well against our adversary----. So if the indians go for the rafael---we need to go for eurofighter and vice versa----.

As for Eurofighters that is out of possibility unless a miraculous deal happens between KSA and PK.....I don't know any other feasible way that can happen. Besides that too would be a "Trojan horse filled" air craft, would it not? Best thing for now is continue to modernize JF-17 and work on JF-17 II program. Besides Turkiye has licensed indigenous F-16 manufacturing capability, Pakistan should go to Turkiye for help in this regard, makes no sense. They did provide MLU's to the F-16's, for spare parts go to Turkiye as well.

Improve the economy, that's the elephant in the room....I've been saying for some time now Gwadar project has to be expanded. Both military and civil leadership are at a low right now...

 

[Chogy]

The british got ver concerned about hte capabilities of the exocet---so they went running to the french----later on none of the exocet missiles launched by the argentinians got a lock on the target----which was later found out that the french had given the british the codes for the missiles.

Timeline, Falklands war:

"Excuse me. I had a difference to settle with the Iron Lady. That Thatcher, what an impossible woman!" the president said as he arrived, more than 45 minutes late, on May 7 1982. "With her four nuclear submarines in the south Atlantic, she's threatening to unleash an atomic weapon against Argentina if I don't provide her with the secret codes that will make the missiles we sold the Argentinians deaf and blind." He reminded Mr Magoudi that on May 4 an Exocet missile had struck HMS Sheffield."

12 June 1982
HMS Glamorgan hit by a shore-launched Exocet missile

There ARE NO SECRET "TURN-OFF" CODES. This is one of the most ancient conspiracy theories out there right now. More likely, GB recieved data on ECM, missile weaknesses, right from the makers of the Exocet.

F-16's are in the hands of numerous Muslim nations. These jets are regularly stripped down, taken apart for maintenance. Every screw, nut, bolt, black box, has a known function. There is no module or device that will turn a fighter jet off.

 

[arsalabbasi]

But ii believe on codes from day one. Today USA have technology of micro chip to find locations of any human body or human vehicles. It is impossible to find these chips in human body than how can one detect it during over hauling.
Point is that USA are monitoring our jets provided by them. They can easily target anytime our jets through GPS tehnology Or most dangerously can provide this data / can give access to monitor these jets by Israelis or IAF , in case Pakistan do anything against the will of USA.

 

[majesticpankaj]

Just to add with you.
Buying any good weapon shall be filling the time gap only but we must remember Wars cannot be won by borrowed or bought technology( reference your Argentinean example). What we need in the long run is to develop our self and for that we need education, in fact higher education. Remember how much engineering PHD's we produce in an year? and we think of fighting a nation with the largest R&D budget. So invest in education/ R&D and let the time pass we shall get our fruit in time inshallah.

100% agreed with u my friend...economic muscle is the real muscle...

 

[Pfpilot]

If anything in the order of these codes supposedly existed, it makes little difference in the wider scenario. Against the IAF we are completely unprepared. I would love to act as if our Rose Mirages and mighty F-7s will dominate the skies, but the reality is, we have so few f-16s to begin with, an adversary can just wait for us to lose them through pure attrition and we would have nothing to replace them with.
Whether we have f-16s or not misses the wider problem, we are utterly lost in our direction and have been left behind by all potential adversaries.