PAF Should Go For The F 35---A Coupe De Grace

[Blue Marlin]

Ok, so to a very emotional post I went through, I am sorry I hurt your feelings. Grow some thick skin and act like a real man mate. Life is too difficult out there, you got to be strong to handle this little posts. For my part, I am sorry about calling you an Indian, you almost brought up all facts that I deal with the Indian community members all day long. Now here are your answers:

don't worry my feeling are intact,forgiven and forgotten. i like to talk critically of things as it bring up the problems. its all good when you talk about the positives but then it more of an a*s licking contest than anything else. it a forum for discussion, people need to be critical.

1) I don't hate India. I actually admire her growth and community / team work that Indians present. I do hate some Indian members' posts on here who actually just write silly posts for show off and there is that constant theme "India has more money", "India is the shiit". Well, not really and doesn't matter. Specially when we do Into-Pak scenarios, Indian whatever, whatever doesn't pose a whole lot of strategic impact on Pakistan's defensive posture. So that's a different topic all together.

thats your experience. i like to keeps my posts balanced, but it sometimes have the opposite effect. when i read you posts i tend to find your posts beyond assertive and more towards the aggressive category.

2) China WOULD be doing $ 40 billion worth of defense deals if the US government hadn't put sanctions on it. Remember the Jet engines, Radars, the Super 7, and even some basic cooperation was going on on twin engine jets and all got disrupted due to sanctions. Yes, I know and even my dog knows the Chinese don't buy weapons from the US. But 20 years ago, it was different. The Chinese had a LOT of interest in the American weapons systems and they wanted to buy TOT or even assemble versions designed for them. The point I was making was that when it comes to national priorities, the US government will make their call to provide Pakistan with whatever they want to. There is no Indian factor involved when its the US interest requiring such thing. Period. This is a fact and proven many times.

yes thats correct, but hypothetically if the sanctions were dropped then they will be a huge influx of weapons but it would be very brief. as china would simply emulate their technologies.

3) Tom, Di*ck and Harry in Police need to protect people. Guns are used for self defense also. I back the Republican party's stance on it and agree with NRA's guidelines. You can't shut down an entire industry because there are some lunatics out there. You need to remove those lunatics / psycho people from the main stream and id them, so they WON'T get guns. So this is more complex that you'd understand to be honest. Open up a new thread to talk about this.

if you want to protect your self then you use your fists. here in the uk thats what we use. only big time dealers have guns and the police too. i can see why anyone would need a gun and self defense is not an excuse. i can go to Tesco and know that some yobbo is not going to shoot me. across the pond then thats a different story. also i would vote for trump as i would love to see how he behaves and the scandals after he's president on how he made billions during his presidency.

4) I think we are in the same business then? I may be a Colombian in two weeks and then Bogotan in the week after due to travel. Nature of the beast man. Gotta pay for the Sandwich I eat at night you know I'm sayin'???

no i don't know what your saying but don't tell me.

 

[James David]

I do love discussions like this. How is it that every-time PDF discusses the US or US equipment, no American members chime in and give their take? It's almost as if they collectively go, "ah crap, here they go again with their duplicity. They hate us until they want something from us."

First you want to get closer to China and leave the US behind or reduce your defense relationship and dependence on the US, I've seen that stance so many times here before. Now you want to retain the US and opt for its newest front-line aircraft, knowing full well that there would be supply-chain security concerns if Pak-US relations soured... and that this simple wont happen?

It's odd. This duplicity is odd. This lack of concrete thoughts on the nature, directional trend or wanted direction of Pakistani-US relations is odd. It's odd that no Americans never chime in when their nation or its equipment is the topic, other than when an American member initiates the discussion. Well, it's amusing to me anyway. I suppose being consistently inconsistent in ones views, to the point of dissonance, is still a measure of consistency.

Given the on-again, off-again nature of Pak-US relations, I can't see the F-35 in Pakistani colors anytime soon.

...

Still, this reflection and its irony aside, the F-35 is a good aircraft:

*This is our AM-1"

The first Lockheed Martin F-35A aircraft for Norway takes off from Naval Air Station Fort Worth Joint Reserve Base on Oct. 6, with Lockheed Martin test pilot Bill Gigliotti at the controls.

It's replacing our F-16s on a 1-1 basis. 52 total:

Yeah, that's right give her a tune-up.

@SvenSvensonov where the heck are you (I can't auto tag you either. Is your account valid? Are you still a member here? Don't answer, you wont anyway. I already know the answer to these questions)? Let's get some American views in here. They never surface when they're the subject, it's always foreigners discussing their nation, policies and equipment.

Hey I buddy @Transhumanist , I am here!!!! I agree with you! I cant see F-35 for Pakistani Air Force too (atleast not in the immediate future I think)!!!
I am not a flyboy though so better wait for those flyboys and zoomies to comment...

@gambit sir, care to share what you think about this one?

 

[Foxtrot-Bravo]

This man is out of his mind, he gives ideas like he has been positioned the budget adviser of Pakistan Air Force.

 

[MastanKhan]

Why you suggest JH7B???





Recently i reviewed an article F-16 vs F-35, Sorry i forgot to save that link otherwise i shared it here.
F-16 won the fight.

If you are considering stealth than we should go for PAFWA T-50 5th generation Russian stealth fighter

Thats right We should remove our dependency from US completely

Hi,

Because Pakistan air force does not have a dedicated bomber----. This would be the least expensive option with the most technology in the price range.

It is a mach 2 aircraft----. It would have the ability to carry a massive aesa radar and jamming pods----which would put it in league as a F18 growler.

It can carry upto 10000Kg weapons load-----with refueling capabilities---it can have a combat radius of around 2000 plus miles.

It can carry around 8-10 BVR SD10 missiles and possibly the upcoming PL15's as well. The number of missiles can be increased by installing multiple racks to possibly 12 or 14-----.

So---basically you have the Chinese version of the American B1 bomber loaded with BVR's that you just saw in the video that Aamir Hussein posted.

Now----someone explain me----at BVR range----what s the difference between a J11 and JH7B----bot will have the same aesa----both will have the same number of missiles----actually---the JH7B would carry 4 more missiles than the J11.

You see the PAF is still in the stupid mode-----they are still not thinking about a bomber---because they have been hijacked by the fighter mafia---.

 

[Blue Marlin]

Hi,

Because Pakistan air force does not have a dedicated bomber----. This would be the least expensive option with the most technology in the price range.

It is a mach 2 aircraft----. It would have the ability to carry a massive aesa radar and jamming pods----which would put it in league as a F18 growler.

It can carry upto 10000Kg weapons load-----with refueling capabilities---it can have a combat radius of around 2000 plus miles.

It can carry around 8-10 BVR SD10 missiles and possibly the upcoming PL15's as well. The number of missiles can be increased by installing multiple racks to possibly 12 or 14-----.

So---basically you have the Chinese version of the American B1 bomber loaded with BVR's that you just saw in the video that Aamir Hussein posted.

Now----someone explain me----at BVR range----what s the difference between a J11 and JH7B----bot will have the same aesa----both will have the same number of missiles----actually---the JH7B would carry 4 more missiles than the J11.

You see the PAF is still in the stupid mode-----they are still not thinking about a bomber---because they have been hijacked by the fighter mafia---.

are you talking about the f35 or the jh7b?

 

[gambit]

I do love discussions like this. How is it that every-time PDF discusses the US or US equipment, no American members chime in and give their take? It's almost as if they collectively go, "ah crap, here they go again with their duplicity. They hate us until they want something from us."

Yup...Pretty much it.

Actually, I have commented before about US hardware, although I stay mostly in the technical regions. I was invited here and I remained silent for a while before participation. Prior to my entry, I saw a lot of technical issues debated with serious misconceptions and errors, which inevitably resulted in wrong proposed/speculated tactics, which led to misguided doctrines.

For example, today no one seriously talks about making a 'stealth' version of the JF-17 anymore once I explained the basics of radar detection and how low radar observability works.

The old saying about the hammer and nails applies: If the only tool you have is a hammer, then every problem is a nail.

The corollary to that is if you have the wrong ideas about the tools that you have, then you will be solving the wrong problems for the wrong reasons. Yes, you can use a crescent wrench in the manner of a hammer, but the wrench was never designed to produce forces and withstand stresses the way a hammer was designed to be.

The current American tools are proven so it is naturally assumed that the next generation of American tools should carry the same, or at least similar, capabilities. Going between what is known to work and worked well versus one's distaste for the toolmaker is what we are seeing here. It is difficult for the American contingent on this forum to even try to help the Pakistani members solve this dilemma, but this dilemma is not new. It maybe new to Pakistan, but every country that must import its defense had or still have this dilemma.

You would think that an apple and a jet fighter have nothing in common but the geopolitical reality can and will make common themes for both items. Is the apple an luxury or a necessity ? If you are hungry then the apple producer can and will attach conditions to the apple before he sell or give it to you. And we all know what usually happens to the jet fighter, correct ?

Defense is never a luxury, especially when you are bordered by nominally hostile states the way Pakistan is. Like it or not, China should not be seen by Pakistan as a 'brother' the way many less wise Pakistanis here sees China. Hostile attitudes can be manifested in many ways but the least problematic for all involved in a relationship is abandonment. Simply walk away. There are little between China and Pakistan that either party cannot simply walk away from each other. But precisely because defense is never a luxury Pakistan is caught between two rivals, the US and China, Pakistan is the least likely to abandon the US or China while the latter two can do so at any geopolitically expedient time. The wiser Pakistanis, in and out of this forum, know this.

In a way, it is at least interesting, if not entertaining, enough to see the Pakistanis debate this problem among themselves. There is really nothing the American contingent in this forum can do without being (reasonably) accused of being biased.

 

[Blue Marlin]

Yup...Pretty much it.

Actually, I have commented before about US hardware, although I stay mostly in the technical regions. I was invited here and I remained silent for a while before participation. Prior to my entry, I saw a lot of technical issues debated with serious misconceptions and errors, which inevitably resulted in wrong proposed/speculated tactics, which led to misguided doctrines.

For example, today no one seriously talks about making a 'stealth' version of the JF-17 anymore once I explained the basics of radar detection and how low radar observability works.

The old saying about the hammer and nails applies: If the only tool you have is a hammer, then every problem is a nail.

The corollary to that is if you have the wrong ideas about the tools that you have, then you will be solving the wrong problems for the wrong reasons. Yes, you can use a crescent wrench in the manner of a hammer, but the wrench was never designed to produce forces and withstand stresses the way a hammer was designed to be.

The current American tools are proven so it is naturally assumed that the next generation of American tools should carry the same, or at least similar, capabilities. Going between what is known to work and worked well versus one's distaste for the toolmaker is what we are seeing here. It is difficult for the American contingent on this forum to even try to help the Pakistani members solve this dilemma, but this dilemma is not new. It maybe new to Pakistan, but every country that must import its defense had or still have this dilemma.

You would think that an apple and a jet fighter have nothing in common but the geopolitical reality can and will make common themes for both items. Is the apple an luxury or a necessity ? If you are hungry then the apple producer can and will attach conditions to the apple before he sell or give it to you. And we all know what usually happens to the jet fighter, correct ?

Defense is never a luxury, especially when you are bordered by nominally hostile states the way Pakistan is. Like it or not, China should not be seen by Pakistan as a 'brother' the way many less wise Pakistanis here sees China. Hostile attitudes can be manifested in many ways but the least problematic for all involved in a relationship is abandonment. Simply walk away. There are little between China and Pakistan that either party cannot simply walk away from each other. But precisely because defense is never a luxury Pakistan is caught between two rivals, the US and China, Pakistan is the least likely to abandon the US or China while the latter two can do so at any geopolitically expedient time. The wiser Pakistanis, in and out of this forum, know this.

In a way, it is at least interesting, if not entertaining, enough to see the Pakistanis debate this problem among themselves. There is really nothing the American contingent in this forum can do without being (reasonably) accused of being biased.

you should highlight the last paragraph to clearly conclude your point. which i agree with, i do find it repetitive and sort of obsessive.

 

[MastanKhan]

are you talking about the f35 or the jh7b?

Hi,

The reply was to a poster who inquired about why I proposed the Jh7b.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

A lot of colleagues over here do not know that China had kicked pakistan out 2-3 years ago when pakistan went to get some assistance during Zardari's time. China openly stated that we give and you loot and plunder---get lost.

But then---to chna---the threats in the south china sea started coming----japan---vietnam---taiwan---philipines---and then to top it off---India----and not forgetting the U S.

China is trapped now---so where does t go---back to pakistan----salvage point Gwadar port----this is the same port that the the U S govt had sabotaged the operation of fr close to 10 years by forcing Musharraf to sell it to a singapore conglomerate---which did nothing in that time.

So---as the threshold of the threat rises in south china seas----china has no where to run but to pakistan----.

Similarly---russia also seeas a ray of light and sticks its foot into the game by signing the deal for the 2 billion dollars pipeline from gwadar---.

The U S got sucked into this stupidity by India lovers in the cabinet----and for no reason whatsoever---the U S just opened its big mouth and created more animosity with the pakistani public and govt----specially about the Osama issue.

So---at the end of the day---what the BFD was Osama Bin Laden----nothing---zilch---zero---nada----miniscule----no value---but only for Obama to win him an election---.

The bad publicity that pakistan got was because Gen Kiyani and Gen Pasha kept their mouths shut----these two guys did not come to rescue pakistan from this onslaught----.

These two guys should have come out swining for pakistan and told the media how pak military help carry out the operation---but they chose to keep quiet out of cowardice----.

And for that reason I wrote both to Gen Kiyani and Gen Pasha and told them if they had an iota of character and honor left in them---they would put their .45 to their heads and blow their brains out---because they have put pakistan in such a shameful and disgraceful position that pakistan has never been in its short history.

Both of them sent me threatening answers to keep my mouth shut and straighten up otherwise they will deal with me.

And I will also deal with them---if I ever get the opportunity----Gen Kiyani and Gen Pasha will both hang by their necks for this act of treason against pakistan---if I have my way.

These two genrals had the information to smash the myth of the actions of the U S military in the region---what a fraud the U S military campaign was---and what a total failure its generals had been except for one who got fired---what was his name Gen McCormick---I believe----.

It proves time and again---quiet people are also cowards---because as they have kept quiet and done yessir all their lives and reached the apex---so---in time of crisis they also stay quiet---becase they know they will come out ahead----. They did----but the nation got scorched.

 

[Blue Marlin]

Hi,

A lot of colleagues over here do not know that China had kicked pakistan out 2-3 years ago when pakistan went to get some assistance during Zardari's time. China openly stated that we give and you loot and plunder---get lost.

But then---to chna---the threats in the south china sea started coming----japan---vietnam---taiwan---philipines---and then to top it off---India----and not forgetting the U S.

China is trapped now---so where does t go---back to pakistan----salvage point Gwadar port----this is the same port that the the U S govt had sabotaged the operation of fr close to 10 years by forcing Musharraf to sell it to a singapore conglomerate---which did nothing in that time.

So---as the threshold of the threat rises in south china seas----china has no where to run but to pakistan----.

Similarly---russia also seeas a ray of light and sticks its foot into the game by signing the deal for the 2 billion dollars pipeline from gwadar---.

The U S got sucked into this stupidity by India lovers in the cabinet----and for no reason whatsoever---the U S just opened its big mouth and created more animosity with the pakistani public and govt----specially about the Osama issue.

So---at the end of the day---what the BFD was Osama Bin Laden----nothing---zilch---zero---nada----miniscule----no value---but only for Obama to win him an election---.

The bad publicity that pakistan got was because Gen Kiyani and Gen Pasha kept their mouths shut----these two guys did not come to rescue pakistan from this onslaught----.

These two guys should have come out swining for pakistan and told the media how pak military help carry out the operation---but they chose to keep quiet out of cowardice----.

And for that reason I wrote both to Gen Kiyani and Gen Pasha and told them if they had an iota of character and honor left in them---they would put their .45 to their heads and blow their brains out---because they have put pakistan in such a shameful and disgraceful position that pakistan has never been in its short history.

Both of them sent me threatening answers to keep my mouth shut and straighten up otherwise they will deal with me.

And I will also deal with them---if I ever get the opportunity----Gen Kiyani and Gen Pasha will both hang by their necks for this act of treason against pakistan---if I have my way.

These two genrals had the information to smash the myth of the actions of the U S military in the region---what a fraud the U S military campaign was---and what a total failure its generals had been except for one who got fired---what was his name Gen McCormick---I believe----.

It proves time and again---quiet people are also cowards---because as they have kept quiet and done yessir all their lives and reached the apex---so---in time of crisis they also stay quiet---becase they know they will come out ahead----. They did----but the nation got scorched.

threatening the ex army chief and the former isi chief not your finest hour.

besides i dont believe you. if you really did contact them and they did what you said there were doing, they will kill you. people in pakistan go missing for saying the wrong stuff. you better keep your trap shut or your just gonna create problems for yourself.

 

[MastanKhan]

threatening the ex army chief and the former isi chief not your finest hour.

besides i dont believe you. if you really did contact them and they did what you said there were doing, they will kill you. people in pakistan go missing for saying the wrong stuff. you better keep your trap shut or your just gonna create problems for yourself.

Kid,

Don't call me a liar----.

These two cowards cannot do diddley sh-it---. They were running scared of their shadows.

Kill me---did you think that I am scared of dying at their hands----you must be stupid----..

Almost 60 years old---it will be a preveledge for me to die for a cause that I believe in.

The ex army chief and his isi general Pasha are traitors of pakistan---.

 

[RIP Pak LAW]

No way in the world. All American jets have so called Killlllll buttons. So no thanks!

 

[Blue Marlin]

Kid,

Don't call me a liar----.

These two cowards cannot do diddley sh-it---. They were running scared of their shadows.

Kill me---did you think that I am scared of dying at their hands----you must be stupid----..

Almost 60 years old---it will be a preveledge for me to die for a cause that I believe in.

The ex army chief and his isi general Pasha are traitors of pakistan---.

damn 60! well at least show us proof and pixalate the sensitive contacts

 

[New World]

A lot of colleagues over here do not know that China had kicked pakistan out 2-3 years ago when pakistan went to get some assistance during Zardari's time. China openly stated that we give and you loot and plunder---get lost.

please put some light on this.. and explain further.. on which issue china kicked Pak??

 

[MastanKhan]

please put some light on this.. and explain further.. on which issue china kicked Pak??

Hi,

After looting and plundering pakistan for 3 plus years----Asif Zardari and co decided to go to china and get some loans etc etc etc---china launched them saying---we give money and you loot and plunder---get lost.